Bowling For Columbine

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm talking about the bloke who sleeps with a gun because they feel someone will break into their home while they sleep.

Go to the "Armed Citizen" web site I referenced for billvon, and type in any scenario you want into the search window. You'll find plenty of real-life stories of people who have prevented crime and saved themselves from harm, by having guns handy.

[JohnRich 4]

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guns were invented to kill living creatures (mainly humans). Scared of the media hype? I think not. Scared of the devaluation of life. You better believe I am. If you have such a low regard for life, then I am truly sorry for you. I for one respect life. The person who over reacts to a situation, and pulls out a gun to resolve the issue has no respect for life.

Reality check.

The Charlotte Observer, Charlotte, NC, 11/18/98:

"A number of unsolved burglaries and a subsequent string of sexual assaults near the University of North Carolina's Charlotte campus had female residents there fearing for their safety. It was that heightened sense of awareness, and an armed citizen, that helped prevent yet another attack. Twenty-six-year-old Adrian Rodricka Cathey entered a woman's apartment early one morning and assaulted her with a knife. This time, however, the intended victim fought back, retrieving a firearm and shooting her assailant. Cathey, who had a record of arrests on charges of rape and attempted murder, was later found dead in a parking lot.

Do you believe that Ms. Cathey has no respect for human life?

Do you think that she should have been defenseless to save herself from this vicious predator?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You can sight instances where the use of a firearm saved someone's ass all day long. And in this last case it is clear that the perpetrator had what was coming to them. But where the US differs from most other modern societies is the reliance on their firearms to resolve their disputes. There seems to exist the mentality here that I need to use my gun on some bloke before they use their gun on me. I am not arguing that criminals don't exist and that they have little respect for society's rules. Where I am arguing is the mentality that I have to pop the other bloke before he pops me. It's the old shoot first and ask questions later mentality that is responsible for so many gun deaths. And this mentality just doesn't exist in other (dare I say it) developed countries.

Once again, I am not trying to take people's guns away from them. But I would like people to think first before they act. Is that too much to ask?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,396]

>The same can be said of reserve parachutes and automatic
> activation devices. Maybe we should not allow skydivers to use
> them, because they might hurt themselves by misusing the
> products, or by accidentally deploying them when they shouldn't!

Nonsense. People can make up their own mind. But people who get on dives that they would otherwise avoid because they have a cypres are more, rather than less, likely to die skydiving. And people have been injured and killed because their cypreses misfired - and at least one has died because he relied on his cypres to save his life when he couldn't.

Similarly, anyone who carries a gun and therefore decides he is less likely to be robbed, or decides he can stand up to a thief instead of fleeing, is more, rather than less, likely to come to harm. I have no problem with him carrying a gun; he's just fooling himself as to what his mighty weapon will really do for him.

And, of course, there's one additional difference - if someone gets hold of my cypres they can't kill me with it.

[mnischalke 0]

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...Similarly, anyone who carries a gun and therefore decides he is less likely to be robbed, or decides he can stand up to a thief instead of fleeing, is more, rather than less, likely to come to harm...

Again, please show me what you base this conclusion upon.

In case you missed this one...

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There have been a great many cases of criminals getting their hands on a legal gun and using it against the owner.

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I am sick of this totally fictional scenario. Show me the numbers and incidences.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[JohnRich 4]

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What is your solution?

Still waiting to hear about your solution.

Gosh, you gave me a whole 34 minutes from your initial question until you came back with this "still waiting" message. It must have been terrible to wait that long for an answer.

Here's an idea for you.

Everyone wants to solve the problem of children getting hold of guns in their homes and shooting themselves or their siblings.

There are types of gun safes, about the size of a shoe box, that solve this problem. They allow for both security from children, as well as instant access for self defense. It does this with a combination lock that is comprised of a recessed hand print on top of the box, and the lock is opened by pressing the fingers in a certain sequence. It can be done in the dark. There is no fumbling with keys, or numbers that can't be seen.

Wouldn't it be nice if every gun owner with children had one of these? I bought one of these for my daughter in-law, to make sure that my grandchildren were safe.

So how about we pass a Bill which gives a tax credit for the price of these gun safes, on everyone's tax return. This would encourage the purchase of these safety items, since the cost would be offset by the tax break.

How about it - are you in favor of this idea?

[JohnRich 4]

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You can sight instances where the use of a firearm saved someone's ass all day long.

Yes, we can. And that refutes the idea being promoted by some people here that the use of guns for self-defense is "nonsense".

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And in this last case it is clear that the perpetrator had what was coming to them. But where the US differs from most other modern societies is the reliance on their firearms to resolve their disputes. There seems to exist the mentality here that I need to use my gun on some bloke before they use their gun on me.

In the case cited, this was not a "dispute". It was an attack by a vicious man with a knife upon a woman.

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Where I am arguing is the mentality that I have to pop the other bloke before he pops me. It's the old shoot first and ask questions later mentality that is responsible for so many gun deaths.

Would you have preferred that this female victim not used her gun, allowing her attacker to rape her and stab her to death? Is that your idea of showing "respect for life"?

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I would like people to think first before they act. Is that too much to ask?

I think this lady did think first. She thought: "Oh shit, there's an intruder in my house with a knife, and I'm going to die! I better do something to save myself!" I don't see anything wrong with that kind of thinking.

What would you do if you the same man had broken into your house and advanced upon you with a knife? If you had a gun available, would you pick it up?

[JohnRich 4]

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Similarly, anyone who carries a gun and therefore decides he is less likely to be robbed, or decides he can stand up to a thief instead of fleeing, is more, rather than less, likely to come to harm.

I see that you have completely disregarded the Justice Department studies I provided which proved otherwise.

Please review messages #346 and #347.

Guns are the best means of self-defense in order to avoid injury.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Lock boxes help (they should prevent 6 year olds from taking a gun to school and blowing away other 6 year olds) and sure a tax credit might help out here. But I was looking more for a solution to solve the 10000+ deaths which occur each year at the hands of a firearm in the USA.

PS: It's obvious neither one of our opinions are going to change. You believe weapons play a vital role in our everyday lives and I feel that guns aren't as necessary as many people believe they are.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

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I was looking more for a solution to solve the 10000+ deaths which occur each year at the hands of a firearm in the USA.

I covered that much earlier, when I proposed mandatory gun safety education in public schools, just like driver's ed, fire safety, bicycle safety, and other things that are already taught to schoolchildren.

And the media violence doesn't help. Just look at all the TV ads right now for christmas video games. Notice how they all seem to involve shooting and destroying things? Oh what fun!

In the 50's and 60's when I grew up, guns were just as widespread in America as they are now. There were far fewer gun control laws. Yet, we didn't go around shooting each other nearly as much as we do now. So what has changed? It's not the guns. Guns are still widespread, and there are far more gun laws in effect to control them. Yet we still shoot each other more often.

Thus, it's not the guns.

What has changed is this: our culture.

That's what we need to work on.

[JohnRich 4]

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Lock boxes help and sure a tax credit might help out here.

The objection to that idea which I usually get from anti-gun folks is that they oppose a tax benefit which would be applicable only to gun owners. They actually hate gun owners so much, that they would rather see kids die, then to grant a tax break to gun owners to make their kids safe. That's an example of the degree of extremism that I've encountered in the past.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I proposed mandatory gun safety education in public schools.

Good god ... bringing guns into the schools? What business do guns have in a school? That's like a bank handing out guns to their customers. Don't get me wrong, people who handle firearms need to be educated in how to operate them. But in a public school?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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They actually hate gun owners so much, that they would rather see kids die, then to grant a tax break to gun owners to make their kids safe.

What a bunch of crap. I don't like guns, yet do I sound like someone who wants to see children die? You flamed me for generalizing things (and publicly referred to me as a fool) and then you spew crap like this?

Dude you don't know me, you don't know why I dislike guns (except to say that I knew a murder victim of Marc Lepin and have seen what happens to a family which lost a loved one thanks to a gun).

I'm done with this thead and I'm especially done with you.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnischalke 0]

I dunno where you're from, but where I grew up in Pennsylvania, we had a high school rifle team and shooting was a popular school-sponsored elective. We used to shoot .22 LR on a "range" in the basement of the school. That was just 15 years ago. It was also totally common to see a rifle in a vehicle in the school parking lot during hunting season. The whole freakish phobia of kids and firearms is only a recent development. It is a stigmata which I believe is the direct responsibility of the mainstream media and its extreme sensationalism for cold cash.

A child who has the discipline to excel in marksmanship can still get his tuition paid to several great colleges around the country.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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Dude you don't know me, you don't know why I dislike guns (except to say that I knew a murder victim of Marc Lepin and have seen what happens to a family which lost a loved one thanks to a gun).

or should it be "...which lost a loved one thanks to a murderer"

Unfortunately, people prove every day you don't need a gun to kill if you have a strong enough desire to end a life.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I proposed mandatory gun safety education in public schools.

Good god ... bringing guns into the schools? What business do guns have in a school? That's like a bank handing out guns to their customers. Don't get me wrong, people who handle firearms need to be educated in how to operate them. But in a public school?

Next thing you know they'll have a marksmanship merit badge in boy scouts!!!

[JohnRich 4]

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Good god ... bringing guns into the schools? What business do guns have in a school? That's like a bank handing out guns to their customers. Don't get me wrong, people who handle firearms need to be educated in how to operate them. But in a public school?

Gun safety education doesn't necessarily mean handling live guns.

At the lower grade levels, they're simply taught that if they come across a gun, they are to: "Stop. Don't touch. Tell an adult."

At higher grade levels, dummy guns can be used to illustrate how a magazine can be removed, while a live round still remains hidden in the chamber.

And they can show movies to demonstrate the destructive power, like those old driver ed movies that showed dead bodies in auto accidents. And the penalties for criminal use of guns.

All of this would be organized into a program that would interject the subject at several levels of education, with each tailored to that age level.

This would benefit gun handling accidents, as well as deter criminal use.

Do you hate guns so much that you would bury your head in the sand, rather than teach new generations what they need to know about guns, thereby perpetuating the problem?

[JohnRich 4]

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do I sound like someone who wants to see children die? You flamed me for generalizing things (and publicly referred to me as a fool) and then you spew crap like this?

Please re-read those messages more carefully.

I didn't call *you* a fool, I called your *argument* foolish. That's acceptable under the rules here, and I explained why I thought that way too.

I also did *not* accuse you of wanting children to die. I referred to "some anti-gun folks in the past" who objected to my tax credit idea. Since you didn't object to that idea, and are not from the past, that comment didn't include you.

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you don't know why I dislike guns (except to say that I knew a murder victim of Marc Lepin and have seen what happens to a family which lost a loved one thanks to a gun).

Ah, now we get to the real source of your gun protests. It's based upon emotion, rather than logic. As evidence of that emotionalism, I point to the fact that you blame the gun for the murder, rather than the person who weilded the gun. While every death is a tragedy, fortunately, grieving, emotional people do not get to formulate public policy for 260 million free citizens.

[mnischalke 0]

Eddie Eagle's message: "Stop. Don't touch. ((((Leave the area.)))) Tell an adult."

Sorry, had to correct ya.

It's funny, but I have an older Eddie Eagle tape with narration by none other than Jason Priestly of 90210 fame.

More on Eddie Eagle:

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Begun in 1988, The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program reaches over one million children each year -- more than 17 million total today -- in all 50 states. This program was developed through the combined efforts of such qualified professionals as clinical psychologists, reading specialists, teachers, curriculum specialists, urban housing safety officials, and law enforcement personnel.

Anyone may teach The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program, and NRA membership is not required. The program may be readily incorporated into existing school curriculum, taught in a one- to five-day format, and used to reach all levels or simply one or two grades. Materials available through this program are: student workbooks, 7-minute animated video, instructor guides, brochures, and student reward stickers. Program materials are also available in Spanish.

Guess that's one thing the NRA is doing to solve the problem of accidental firearm injury among children. Tell me, what's Handgun Control or the Million Mom March got going in the way of prevention or education?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[JohnRich 4]

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I dunno where you're from, but where I grew up in Pennsylvania, we had a high school rifle team and shooting was a popular school-sponsored elective.

"A Strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks".

- Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318, Foley Ed. reissued 1967

[mnischalke 0]

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Next thing you know they'll have a marksmanship merit badge in boy scouts!!!

I wasn't going to go there because I knew some joke would come up with some disjointed logic linking the BSA to the KKK. "Well, they're both a group of males!!! It was a bunch of white kids when it started!!! It must be the training ground for the KKK!!!"

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

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"A Strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks".

- Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318, Foley Ed. reissued 1967

By far, the most focused, self-disciplined, intelligent, courteous, respectful and promising group of kids I have ever had the good fortune of meeting are the ones I meet at competitive shooting events. These are not your future gang bangers or drug dealers. The are your future leaders and professionals. They have developed some of the most important traits of humanity at an age other kids are learning to beat video games.

Kinda makes ya think, huh?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Ah, now we get to the real source of your gun protests. It's based upon emotion, rather than logic.

In the late 1980s, the gun industry began targeting women to counter slumping handgun sales among its primary market of white males. The false message delivered by gun makers was clear: the greatest threat posed to a woman was an attack by a stranger and, the best form of protection a woman could rely upon was a handgun. But based on some studies by the "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)", women were far more likely to be the victim of violent crimes committed by intimate partners than were men, especially when a weapon was involved. Moreover, women were much more likely to be victimized at home than in any other place. Furthermore, a June 2003 study about the risks of firearms in the home found that females living with a gun in the home were nearly three times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun in the home. Another study reports, women who were murdered were more likely, not less likely, to have purchased a handgun in the three years prior to their deaths, again invalidating the idea that a handgun has a protective effect against homicide. While many of these studies do not focus solely on domestic violence homicide or guns, they provide a stark reminder that domestic violence and guns form a deadly combination. Firearms are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes. Instead, they are all too often used to inflict harm on the very people they were intended to protect. Our loved ones.

Here's a few key facts taken from these studies:

- Within the period covered, twice as many women were killed by husbands or intimate acquaintances using firearms than were murdered by strangers using firearms, knives, or any other means. When a woman did use a handgun to kill in self-defense, it was usually against someone she knew, not against a stranger.

- Family and intimate assaults involving a firearm were 12 times more likely to result in death than non-firearm associated assaults between family and intimates. And with one or more guns in the home the risk of suicide increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.

- More female homicides were committed with firearms than with all other weapons combined. Of these, three quarters were committed with handguns.

- (My favorite) For all of the promises made on behalf of the self-defense handgun, using a handgun to kill in self-defense is a rare event. Looking at both men and women, over the past 20 years, on average only two percent of the homicides committed with handguns in the United States were deemed justifiable or self-defense homicides by civilians. To put it in perspective, more people are struck by lightning each year than use handguns to kill in self-defense.

Now I obviously will never change yours (and the other gun lovers minds) concerning the logic for arming oneself. And I'm not naive enough to think I can change the world and get rid of gun violence in the USA. But I am trying to get some people to think and talk about the merits of guns in society.

In case anyone is interested, there is some interesting reading material on the following web site: http://www.vpc.org/studyndx.htm.

Obviously this material will be perceived as propaganda by many of the pro-gun supports out there. And if you are one of those people, just don't read it. I'm sure you've got better things to do with your time (like cleaning your weapons). But for the others, I think you will be enlightened by some of the information provided by these studies.

Now how's that for emotions?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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emotional people do not get to formulate public policy for 260 million free citizens.

Hey I'm a foreigner (your classic case of taxation without representation) in the USA and must be careful on how I come off in such discussions. So even if I had (which I don't) a solution to America's problems, it wouldn't matter as I have no voice in government and nobody representing me.

Now I choose to debate this topic, because I am concerned with the unnecessary loss of life and I do like this country. So when 10000+ people die on average each year due to some sort of encounter with a firearm. I have to stand up and ask why (just as Mr Moore does in Bowling for Columbine). Why do Americans like killing each other with guns more than any other modern society? Why?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

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there is some interesting reading material on the following web site: www.vpc.org

Since you disregard anything pro-gun which comes from the NRA web site, I wonder why you lend so much credibility to anti-gun things which come from an anti-gun web site?

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found that females living with a gun in the home were nearly three times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun in the home.

And this kind of disinformation is why it shouldn't be believed. What they/you try to imply is that the reason they were murdered, is because they have a gun in their home. Wrong!

For example, if a woman has a restraining order against a violent, abusive boyfriend/husband/whatever, she may buy a gun in order to protect herself, because she knows that court orders don't stop criminals. Sometimes those violent acquaintances murder the women.

And you think the woman's gun made the violent person kill her? That's the kind of voodoo science that the VPC would like everyone to believe...

Here are a couple of examples for you.

"An Albany, Oregon, woman bought a shotgun after her estranged husband threatened to kill her. It saved her life less than a month later. The woman's husband, armed with two handguns and ignoring a restraining order, showed up at the house and started shooting, wounding the woman. Brad Adamson, a friend, got the shotgun and fired a blast that killed her attacker."
- The Democrat-Herald, Albany, OR, 1/7/94

"After 11 years of mental and physical abuse, Elizabeth Johnstone finally summoned the courage to leave her husband. When his harassment continued, she filed a restraining order and purchased a .44 cal. revolver in case he violated it. He did. The man broke into her West Melbourne, Florida, home one morning and threatened to kill her with a 12-ga. shotgun. The couple's little boy grabbed his father's legs, begging him not to hurt his mother. The man ignored his son and began dragging his estranged wife through the house. He had succeeded in handcuffing her left wrist when the woman's great-grandmother handed her the .44. Several shots later, the abusive husband lay on the floor, dead."
- Florida Today, Melbourne, FL, 10/23/97