RW vs Free Fly? Why?

[sdgregory 0]

I have met quite a few low jump number people who are free-flyers. Free flying looks awesome and I would like to do it. My question is how many of you fre-flyer only people actually have done any successful RW dives?

The reason I ask is because it seems that most of the newer divers that are free flyers think RW is boring and I have to wonder at 1-2 hundred jumps, how much successful RW can you have done?

A question for everyone:

What made you choose your discipline? What do you love about it? (This goes for everything, not just RW/Free-Fly). I am really interested.


FYI: I really enjoy RW. That is where my focus is for now. The reason? My 25th jump was an 8 point 4 way that was successfully completed. OF course the other three people had over 1000 jumps each and probably did most of the work, but they would not admit it no matter how much I asked. BUt the experience was a blast!.

Just to answer my own question first.

[Reginald 0]

FF are skydivers without friends.

Seriously, I think many people do FF because as low timers it is difficult to find a group to do RW with on a regular basis and FF can be done alone. I am working on RW because I have a number of people both at my low experience level and at higher levels of experience that I can jump with. I also think learning belly flying well is a good first step on being a well rounded skydiver. Do I want to learn FF? Sure but I think, for me anyway, it is best to learn RW first. Also, I really like the feeling of looking in people eyes a foot away from me as we plummet through the atmosphere turning points.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[airgord 1]

Although I am primarily a RW'r I do not believe in limiting my experience to one discipline, there is so much to learn from everything. Do not limit yourself.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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how many of you fre-flyer only people actually have done any successful RW dives?

What makes a dive succesful? Are points needed, or are all the people flying relative to each other and everyone was safe and had fun? As far as having any hard core RW experience, I have none. As far as some intermediate RW experience, I have a little but could definitely use more. But I'm currently not interested in it as freeflying, tracking, swooping, wingsuit, CReW and BASE are what I'm interested in now and there's not enough hours in the day to address all of these disciplines, let alone doing RW jumps to boot.

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What made you choose your discipline? What do you love about it?

1) Freeflying is like dancing in the sky. At the risk of upsetting the RW people, what's more graceful, some talented freefiers or a group of talented belly fliers? My answer is the freefliers are more graceful and more fun to watch. Anyone who's seen Mike Ortiz walk his 360 in the sky will know what I'm talking about. How could Airspeed (who are very talented) match the Flyboyz for grace and precision in the sky? But that's my opinion, possibly not yours.

2) Freeflying is hard and has been quite the challenge (not to say that RW is easy, it's not) and I am constantly going through new freeflying experiences.

3) While it doesn't happen over night, freeflying teaches you a greater control range in how to fly your body in the sky.

4) This next comment likely doesn't apply to experienced RW people, but the relative low-timer freeflier is more likely able to get to a formation than the same relative low-timer RW only skydiver. The new RW only skydiver may think that the only way to get down to a formation if they are floating would be to arch. But the freeflier knows many more ways to fly their body to get down to the low people. I know many belly-only people will disagree with this, but I have seen it in the skies with my own eyes. Don't forget I'm talking relatively low time freefliers versus low time RW people here.

5) At least at my DZ, it's easier to organize small-way freefly jumps with you and your friends.

I could go on, but I won't. I'm sure this thread is going to get more freefliers and RW people mad at each other.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[payback462 0]

freeflying?? RW? what the hell is that stuff, ohhhh yeah, thats what you do to take up your time before the fun begins.

its alll about the canopy flight!!!!!!

[seal_S49 0]

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I have met quite a few low jump number people who are free-flyers...it seems that most of the newer divers that are free flyers think RW is boring...

My 25th jump was an 8 point 4 way that was successfully completed. OF course the other three people had over 1000 jumps each and probably did most of the work....

I like belly flying too. One reason that some newbies aren't interested in this discipline is that they don't get invited on the same loads as as you do. I can't help but think that if every upcoming skydiver had the opportunity to turn some hot points or dive late & swoop a big RW formation, they would appreciate how fun it can be. Getting more new skydivers involved is not likely and the entire RW community can take some of the blame for this. Until we make them more welcome and as long as we have some new jumpers who lack the patience and discipline to meet the social challenges of RW, freeflying will continue to be a newbie magnet. I'm not criticizing this--everyone wants to be accepted and feel comfortable. Freeflying has made a huge contribution to the skydiving community.

I can here the replies coming in now...

Anyway, welcome to RW!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Also, I really like the feeling of looking in people eyes a foot away from me as we plummet through the atmosphere turning points.

This may not occur to new freefliers just learning the tricks of the trade, but you honestly can't think that we can't do the same thing while head down do you? LOL ... if you don't think I can't be nose to nose turning points with another freeflier, might I invite you to watch a video of us doing just that.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[meltdown 0]

I think the dropzone has a lot to do with it. At my "home" dropzone (Otter type DZ), it is kind of tough to hook up with RW people sometimes, because there's a lot of freeflyers there, and the RW people seem to be kind of a "clique" for lack of a better word. Most of them are very experienced and they are doing things well beyond my level. So I do FF jumps and work on sitflying. On the other hand, I went to a different dropzone a couple of weeks ago (Cessna DZ), and on every jump I was approached by the others on the load, and they went out of their way to include me in their RW dives, even at my low experience level. Totally different attitudes. I guess when I want to work on RW, I'll go to dropzone "B", and stick with dropzone "A" when I want to go solo.

[colintri 0]

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4) This next comment likely doesn't apply to experienced RW people, but the relative low-timer freeflier is more likely able to get to a formation than the same relative low-timer RW only skydiver. The new RW only skydiver may think that the only way to get down to a formation if they are floating would be to arch. But the freeflier knows many more ways to fly their body to get down to the low people. I know many belly-only people will disagree with this, but I have seen it in the skies with my own eyes. Don't forget I'm talking relatively low time freefliers versus low time RW people here.

I'm sorry but I must comment about this quote. I'm a low-timer who loves to freefly. Right out of AFF, I started to freefly and did bit of RW. Some people think it's impossible to do two disciplines at the same time but I don't agree. I later found out that I could sit-fly, rock-solid all the way but couldn't dock onto a formation dive worth shit.

Recently, my mentor has managed to persuade me to do mostly RW at first. His quote was, "learn to crawl before you can walk first!" Now, I've spent past few weekends focusing on RW and learned so much how to fly on belly, controlling fall-rate, docking onto a formation. Heck, RW can be fun too! Sure, it depends on where you jump and what kind of people you jump with but low-timers can jump with high-timers. Just walk up to them and ask. I'm sure most of them are willing to help you.

Yes, freeflying has a steep learning curve and I'm forunate to get a head start on it but now that I look back, I wish I've done more RW dives. I believe that in order to be a true freeflier, you must be able to master all aspects of flying in air and that even includes belly-flying. Of course, this is only my opinion.

I hope I didn't throw any more gasoline on the fire about RW vs FF now.

[stuffit 0]

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My question is how many of you fre-flyer only people actually have done any successful RW dives?

My question is how many of you RW only people actually have done any successful freefly dives?

But seriously, RW is for people who like to do fast tick-tack manuevers (not to say it is easy, bec. I am sure it is hard) and see "how many you can get in" before the buzzer. Freefly (except in certain instances) is more like " Hey, lets go out and have some fun and we will put a little plan together and if it doesnt work, fuck it, it was still cool as hell". I seem to see too many RW guys that get all hardcore and pissed off when they dont turn enough points. Hey, maybe it is just my experience but that attitude turned me off to the whole idea of doing RW. Plus, there are so many things about freeflying, like carving, that RW guys dont really ever get to do. I guess it basically comes down to freedom of flying around how you want to and not always worrying about being in the "perfect" position.

[Vallerina 2]

I like RW. Why? Because there's something so cool about sharing a really successful jump with 30 of your old/new friends.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Brian425 0]

As a newbie, I think learning to be a solid belly flyer should be the first skill learned by anyone new. It seems to be the basis for all freefalling techniques. Also, you always need to ge fairly stable at some time or other.

As far as getting people to jump with, just ask. You will be surprised how many people will say yes. In general, I think most people enjoy teaching a little if you keep it low stress and fun.

Some day I'll learn some freefly stuff. This year is dedicated to belly flying and canopy control. It could all change later; but, I want a good set of basics to always fall back on.

B

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[PhreeZone 15]

There are so many things that freefliers don't get to do that RW'ers do.. like back in's, mirror pieces, 15 point skydives

Lets see, 2 point 28 way, lots of 15+ ways, 4 point 3 way sit from 8500 last weekend.. yeah, the 28 way was way harder then that sit fly was.

Even freefliers are now getting into the points and preset formations so look for a change in thinking for serious freefliers here soon too. Lots of freefliers are already doing complete dirt dives and debriefs for things larger then 4 ways, who does that sound like?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Fast 0]

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My question is how many of you fre-flyer only people actually have done any successful RW dives?

My question is how many of you RW only people actually have done any successful freefly dives?

But seriously, RW is for people who like to do fast tick-tack manuevers (not to say it is easy, bec. I am sure it is hard) and see "how many you can get in" before the buzzer. Freefly (except in certain instances) is more like " Hey, lets go out and have some fun and we will put a little plan together and if it doesnt work, fuck it, it was still cool as hell". I seem to see too many RW guys that get all hardcore and pissed off when they dont turn enough points. Hey, maybe it is just my experience but that attitude turned me off to the whole idea of doing RW. Plus, there are so many things about freeflying, like carving, that RW guys dont really ever get to do. I guess it basically comes down to freedom of flying around how you want to and not always worrying about being in the "perfect" position.

At my Dz we have a mix of people that do either of the two. I have found that being a low numbers jumper myself that its fun to do both. I have been taking the attitude of, if someone is willing to jump with me I will do RW, if not I solo and work on sitting.

One of the older jumpers at my Dz put it well when he explained to me that you can't just do one thing these days. It is too limiting on the fun that you can have skydiving. There are things that I don't like about RW though that I don't notice as much with the people who FF. Like stuffit said, all to often the people doing RW come down pissed about something that didn't work, an exit that funneled, etc. It seems that the FFers almost always come down in an awesome mood no matter how bad the jump went.

It seems like the less technical feel that FF gives attracts a lot of people that are lower numbered because it is less likely that your going to fuck up the dive and piss someone off.

I personally have recognized the need to know some of both for my personal goals. I think that there are many things to be learned doing RW that help for FF and overall safety.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[flyangel2 2]

When I was first learning how to skydive, RW was all they had. Now I'm too old to learn how to Freefly. Besides, all the hot FFers at my DZ don't even talk to me

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[skybytch 259]

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My question is how many of you RW only people actually have done any successful freefly dives?

That depends on how you define "successful."

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But seriously, RW is for people who like to do fast tick-tack manuevers (not to say it is easy, bec. I am sure it is hard) and see "how many you can get in" before the buzzer.

Maybe that's what RW is to someone into hard core 4 and 8 way, but that's not what RW is if you're into bigways.

I'm fairly competent at RW (I suck at turning mega points though). I'm stable and safe in a sit and a stand (I've been docked on anyway). I fly a wingsuit (not well).

I'm not going to limit myself to one discipline. It's all too much fun.

[happythoughts 0]

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if you don't think I can't be nose to nose turning points with another freeflier, might I invite you to watch a video of us doing just that

A few years ago, I had a conversation that I wish I had taped.

I was walking to the plane and asked about how freeflyers did their dirtdives. The reply was "Dude, we're not into turning points and stuff. We don't have formations."

Now that the skill level is up, freeflyers are doing points and formations and records.

Some of the same social conflicts are developing. Experienced people want to jump with their experienced friends in order to do more challenging stuff. This may exclude newbies. Be careful, give back to the sport.

[stuffit 0]

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Even freefliers are now getting into the points and preset formations so look for a change in thinking for serious freefliers here soon too. Lots of freefliers are already doing complete dirt dives and debriefs for things larger then 4 ways, who does that sound like?

Yes but that is some serious shit. A lot of those are for serious teams in competitions. From the way alot of these RW guys talk, you would think they were competing. Point being: too many RW guys take it way too seriously, to the point that it would not even be fun anymore, for me atleast.

[Vallerina 2]

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Some of the same social conflicts are developing. Experienced people want to jump with their experienced friends in order to do more challenging stuff. This may exclude newbies. Be careful, give back to the sport.

I completely agree with this!!!! "Oh, freeflyers are so friendly and will jump with anyone!" I call BS! At ~100 RW jumps, I had no problems (except at Lake Wales) going anywhere and getting on jumps where I had to actually do something. I was allowed to move and stuff! At ~100 freefly jumps, I was always "the base." People would fly to me. I get really fed up with that. I even snapped at people for that.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[PhreeZone 15]

I started planning out points and things to do during my freefly jumps last year. It got really boring after 300 jumps to spend the whole time zooming around the sky chasing other jumpers that are chasing you. Not to mention after a few close calls with break offs going to hell... I don't freefly unless there is some sort of plan anymore. I've seen way too many near misses to mess with that again.

And some of those RW people are competing or training for it

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Vallerina 2]

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Point being: too many RW guys take it way too seriously, to the point that it would not even be fun anymore, for me atleast.

It really depends on where you go, and it depends on what's going on. Yes, I've gotten screamed at for wanting to leave a dirt dive to get some sunglasses even though everyone wasn't there yet. But, I've also laughed my butt off with people because I was stupid and flew to the wrong side of a formation (ie, it wasn't a big deal I screwed up.)

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[rehmwa 2]

Mary - You are funny and I'll take you on a sit or headdown anytime. Me, I'll continue to do both. But even in freeflying, I'd rather plan a dive and tick off points than geek each other.

So for me, there isn't much difference in the end, both RW and freefly have serious and non-serious jumpers, both RW and freefly have cliques and not. ditto the other disciplines.

It 'used' to be that freeflying was for the non-competitive types. I'm pretty sure that's over now so that excuse is lame and outdated except for newbies.

What you really want to ask yourself is, "do you want to be competitive and go full out or do you want to go low pressure and easy?". Both attitudes have personal gratification and all the disciplines can offer that. Jump with people that feel the same way and whatever discipline you focus on will be satisfying.

Or better yet, pick 3 or 4 and do them all....

Edit: and for me, I'd rather watch Majik turn fast points than top freeflyers. I like the precision and teamwork better from 4-way. But both get me jazzed. (for that matter, I'd rather do headdown than a big way or some wierd 7 or 11 way - Bad Freefly is better than bad RW, but good RW is better than good FF for me)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TribalTalon 0]

hmm. personally, i just like the freedom of being able to just go out and have fun. for me, being a newbie and due to the fact that i suck, i do not have any fun trying to do RW. for the most part, the other people are usually VERY understanding and say that i did really well, yadda yadda. but its a personal thing. i get mad at myself when i cannot do a simple thing, and you know what, after a long hard week at school, thats the last thing i want to be doing, getting all frustrated at myself and freaking out about some stupid shit that DOES NOT MATTER. therefore, i just do freeflying for the most part, because even if you screw up, it doesnt really matter as long as you are being safe and having fun.

[Vallerina 2]

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i get mad at myself when i cannot do a simple thing, and you know what, after a long hard week at school, thats the last thing i want to be doing, getting all frustrated at myself and freaking out about some stupid shit that DOES NOT MATTER.

Yeah, I think that's a major reason why newbies go into freeflying sooner. It is much easier to learn to sit than it is to learn some of the basic rw moves (well, for most people it seems.) I had a horrible backsliding problem that wouldn't go away. Some people sink out all the time. Others float away. To me, it's more apparent at first when you don't have rw skills than when you don't have freeflying skills. When you're a newbie and you float away, sink away, move far away from 3 people who are all linked together, it's obvious that you did something wrong. When you're in a sit and you just kinda orbit around others, it's not as obvious that they're chasing you because you're backsliding, you're floating, you're not in a full sit, or whatever.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[MarkM 0]

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hmm. personally, i just like the freedom of being able to just go out and have fun.

Yep. The whole reason I started skydiving is to get away from the stress in the rest of my life. Why would I want to add the stress of having to do X and Y on a dive to be "successful"?

If FF starts to get too structured, maybe we'll need to invent something new. Call it ZooFlying or something. Then after a few years when the Zoo competitions and Zoo coaches turn it too structured, something else will come up that the fun jumpers can screw around with.

I guess ya just gotta keep ahead of the curve