oldfart 0 #1 March 23, 2004 I posted this on another site and got a myriad of opinions.Most agree with me that US health care is lacking. It seems that over the years I've been paying more and more for benefits and getting less and less.I've been needing an MRI on my shoulder now for over a year and the decision to get it done lies not with my attending physician,but a bean couter from the insurance company whom I have not met. My fiance from Canada says our medical coverage here sucks,compared to there because Canadians don't pay for anything.The employer pays an amount per employee and what isn't covered such as prescriptions,dental and eye care is picked up by your work benefits which cost less than half what most working folks pay for iin the US. Opinions? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #2 March 23, 2004 QuoteThe employer pays an amount per employee and what isn't covered such as prescriptions,dental and eye care is picked up by your work benefits which cost less than half what most working folks pay for iin the US. Opinions? Nothing is free everyone ends up paying more for goods and services. It seems as if everyone forgets this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #3 March 23, 2004 Yep I agree healthcare here sucks, but not as much as not having it. A friend of mine ate some pond scum and was taken to the hospital via ambulance and since this person had no health insurance nor the money to pay, did not get what should have been done, but that is not the worst of it. The worst of it is that all of those medical bills appear on their credit reports. That person did not chose to go to the hospital and did not sign anything, but it is still there. However, the worst part is I thought there was this "patient doctor" rights, but now everyone who runs their credit report will see that they were very unhealthy or whatever the inquire from the unpaid medical bills. It is also unfair for insurance companies to know anything about your health as well. They should just know how much they are spending, and not for what, let alone why....like when I had my knee surgury after a bad landing...that was def none of their business... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #4 March 23, 2004 QuoteMy fiance from Canada says our medical coverage here sucks,compared to there because Canadians don't pay for anything. Well, I wouldnt say we dont pay for anything. Our tax rate is higher then the US. Its still a better arrangement IMO. Call me a socialist pinko commie if you want, but I do beleive that a government should provide for heath care, education and infrastructure. No system is perfect. We have long waiting lists for some procedures, but overall I prefer the canadian system.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BethUK 0 #5 March 23, 2004 I agree with you, I dont know how you guys manage really! In the UK, granted we have big waiting lists for some National health Service operations and treatments, but what I like the best is that if I got run over or had a skydiving accident, I would be picked up by an ambulance or friends or whatever, taken to hospital and treated, regardless, free of charge. Went to the dentist today and thats NHS (although there are a shortage of NHS dentists in the UK) so that was a free trip, didnt pay for treatment as its covered by the government because I am a student! Those who complain NHS waiting lists are too long can pay to go private. So we have it pretty good over here I guess... Bx------------------------------------------------------------ "This isn't flying...it's falling with style!" Buzz Lightyear - Toystory 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 March 23, 2004 QuoteIt is also unfair for insurance companies to know anything about your health as well... By that logic, a terminally ill person should be able to buy a load of life insurance right before he kicks the bucket - without the insurance company knowing. Yup, that's fair to the rest of the customers. no such thing as a free ride who quoted "a democracy works up to the point where the populace thinks they can vote themselves rich" ? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #7 March 23, 2004 I love the concept of "Free." There is no such thing. P.J. O'Rourke said it best, "If you think health care is expensive now, just wait till it's free." But, I'll digress. If you are injured in America, you get medical treatment if you seek it. Period. Let's say you are some Newfie travelling a road on the way to Cape Cod and you lose control of your vehicle and slam into a wall. An ambulance will come, transport you to the hospital and you will get treated. In fact, you'll get the best treatment in the world. Say you are an uninsured addict in Detroit who suffers from a seizure. No waitlist for your CT. You go straight to it, regardless of whether or not you can pay. I was in England a couple of years ago, when there was a big row over a man who cashed in some retirement so he could go to Belgium to get a surgery needed to prevent paralysis. He was on the list to get the surgery in something like 18 months. Also, he couldn't pay to advance his surgery date. The doctors told him he'd be paralyzed within a year. In Canada and England medical care is free - when you get it. If you get it. Much like the HMO situation with the MRI on the shoulder. Indeed, oldfart has described EXACTLY what you see in socialized health care - rationing. So, what can you do? Pay for it yourself (most people forget that option). Sure, it might be a few hundred bucks. Is it worth it to you? If not worth it to you, then why should it be worth it to the insurer? Perhaps you can get the MRI and bill the insurer for it. Downside is that you owe a few hundred bucks. So, how important is it to you? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meltdown 0 #8 March 23, 2004 Though imperfect, I'll take the US system any day. There is no "free" healthcare anywhere - everybody pays one way or another. Insurance companies can be difficult but I would rather deal with their bean counters than the government idiots who don't even know what a bean is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #9 March 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt is also unfair for insurance companies to know anything about your health as well... By that logic, a terminally ill person should be able to buy a load of life insurance right before he kicks the bucket - without the insurance company knowing. Yup, that's fair to the rest of the customers. no such thing as a free ride who quoted "a democracy works up to the point where the populace thinks they can vote themselves rich" ? Yes that is true too...why would that be fair at all...but then again, why is it fair for his family to have to pay for everything out of their pockets, when he does pass? Just like the family who loses a loved one due to suicide, Why should they have to pay for their loved ones selfish act? I am not just talking about funeral argangments, because they can give that to the state to deal with, I am talking about the spouses that are forced to pay off that car that was in thier names and their debt, which now becomes the living spouse's and goes against their credit. However, it is a cycle that would never solve itself either. Because as soon as they allow life insurance to cover suicide then those .commers that lost all their wealth would use that to take care of their families and everyone else would have to pay....I guess the ideal thing would be to get rid of credit reporting, but then people would abuse that too...Give someone an inch they take a mile....So I guess the best thing is to just give up tryin to fix things, go to the DZ and jump your ass off, until they some how figure out a way to make the world function with out any currancy at all...but that would never work either.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #10 March 23, 2004 >Yes that is true too...why would that be fair at all...but then again, > why is it fair for his family to have to pay for everything out of their > pockets, when he does pass? ?? They don't. They only have to pay if they want a fancy funeral, and fancy funerals are for the living, not the dead. Of course the living should pay for it. >I am talking about the spouses that are forced to pay off that car > that was in thier names and their debt, which now becomes the > living spouse's and goes against their credit. That's a decision that they made, to have a car in both their names. The spouse would have to pay off the car whether or not the dead guy totaled the car or not. If this bugs you - don't get a car loan in both your names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marz 0 #11 March 23, 2004 Quote Call me a socialist pinko commie if you wantQuote I can't belive anyone jumped on that!!!!! Remi, you're a socialist pinko commie!!!!! But you're right. the medication I am presently on costs $21K a year and because of protection laws in Quebec, I pay a maximum of $839 a year... not to shabby!!!!! I'll put up with six month of freezing my nads off for that. Specially that if my nads do fall off, the doctors will re-attach them for free. I just wish the docs could do something about my stretched a$$hole from paying income tax.... Marz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #12 March 23, 2004 Thats an extreamly rare case. Most operations can be brought forwards if you're willing to go private in the UK. Having said that thats all you're paying for as the chances are it will be the same team in the same hospital just a couple of months earlier. Like any big system there will always be a crack or two that someone will fall into. Nature of the beast unfortunatly.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #13 March 23, 2004 QuoteBut you're right. the medication I am presently on costs $21K a year and because of protection laws in Quebec, I pay a maximum of $839 a year... not to shabby!!!!! I just wish the docs could do something about my stretched a$$hole from paying income tax.... Your 'stretched a$$hole' is you paying that ($21,000 - $839 =) $20,161. We have private voluntary insurance to do that. When it's involuntary (taxes) it's the same as you walking up to your best friend, hitting them on the back of the head and stealing $20,161 from them every year. Hope you like your friends and neighbors..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #14 March 23, 2004 You can always move to Canada. But let it be known that the cost for such a "socialistic" service is much higher taxes, and a bureaucracy that rivals the bodies all the world's governments combined. There are many who come to the US (from all over the world) for faster rates of "care" because despite the costs, the quality of care can be significantly higher. Nothing if free.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #15 March 23, 2004 Oh, and one more thing. My insurance company (auto, home, property - I get health from work), invests the money they get and I get a dividend refund every six months and a very small premium - and they are one of the best companies in the US. If I gave twice that money to my government for the same insurance (I know, apples-property and oranges-health) I very much doubt I'd get any of it back and I know the service would be lousy. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WeakMindedFool 0 #16 March 23, 2004 Your right, of course, the system is imperfect. I think the insurance companies have to much power. That said, the U.S. has ONE of the best healthcare systems in the world. It's not uncommon for people to present at the Northern boarder of our country having M.I.'s(heart attacks) because our care is secont to...to Switzerland.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflygoddess 0 #17 March 23, 2004 well it also depends on what state you live in too. Like Arizona, it is a community property state, it doesn't matter whose name is or isn't on it, you are still responsiable. Just like if your marriage fails and you get a divorce, and you had no pre-nup, the assets are split 50/50, same if one dies, you are still responsiable for that debt even if your name wasn't on it. Now what happens in those states that are not like that, then who ends up paying for the dead man's debt? Someone has to in one way or another. When the old lady with thousands of cats and no family dies, who pays for her funeral...we all do. Just like we pay for those prisoners in the pen. We pay for their housing, utilities and food. We pay for their health care and their death penalties and then their funerals. We actually pay for a lot of things, not that there really is a choice, but one way or another we do, but there really isn't a better solution to the problem. Hell if you really want to look at it in the whole picture, we pay for one another's jumps, some how someway....for instance you buy a tank of gas, from that profit it pay's Joe's salary, of which he pays taxes that pay for lots of things and he pays his rent, that land lord, could be Skymama and she then turns and spends that money on jumps and beer and donates to HH and it goes on and on . I was just saying that pretty much everything is messed up in one way or another, but then again it is also good. Just depends on how you look at it. Edited to add...it is just like you have to have a license to get married, and if that marriage fails, not only do you have that stress and hurt feelings of it, but you have to go and spend a lot of money to the government to undo that license to be free of each other and move on....I thought marriage was part of religion in the first place and what happend to religion and state being seperrated? But then again, the government would lose a ton of money if people could just divorce like they break up with someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #18 March 23, 2004 From a local radio show "Euphorians can't link" (and the kittens can be broken down and sold for soup stock to defray the cost of the funeral) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #19 March 23, 2004 >When it's involuntary (taxes) it's the same as you walking up to your > best friend, hitting them on the back of the head and stealing > $20,161 from them every year. Hope you like your friends and > neighbors..... How much do you steal from your best friend every year? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #20 March 23, 2004 Waaah.......waaaaah......such whining!Sure the system isnt perfect, but at least we arent bloody socialist (yet) and can still somewhat determine our own destiny.I have no problems "at all" with my health policy,its affordable,I have a $20 co pay and I get to pick the Dr's.....I still believe that in a free market economy they can do it better quicker and for less cost than a comparable socialist medical system.The biggest problem we have are too many litigious people and too many attorneys!!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #21 March 23, 2004 Quote> How much do you steal from your best friend every year? $17.34 ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflygoddess 0 #22 March 23, 2004 My best friend, pays my rent and the electricity and the trash and the phone bill which includes the DSL oh yeah and buys me jumps and pays for my repacks, and takes me out...however, I pay for the gas, the cable, the water and we split the groceries... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #23 March 23, 2004 Quotebut at least we arent bloody socialist (yet) Um, yes we are... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smiles 0 #24 March 24, 2004 In B.C. Canada we have something called "fair pharmacare coverage" ...so depending on your earnings each year you are charged (I pay first $2,000. medical for the year and anything over that amount I do not pay..) Do not pay for dr. appt., mri, cat scan, operations, birth of babies, hospital fees, x-rays, lab work...only for perscribed meds at drug store--a $5. fee for each physio appt. and $20. charge for ambulance fee. At work I am covered for extended health with blue cross insurance so- every year send in receipts for all medical payments made-and get back everything over $100. paid. Not all get this coverage thru their work. Also have dental coverage through blue cross which covers 80% basic (cleaning-Xrays-fillings)60% (root canals, bridges, crowns) SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,625 #25 March 24, 2004 Quote I was in England a couple of years ago, when there was a big row over a man who cashed in some retirement so he could go to Belgium to get a surgery needed to prevent paralysis. He was on the list to get the surgery in something like 18 months. Also, he couldn't pay to advance his surgery date. The doctors told him he'd be paralyzed within a year. In Canada and England medical care is free - when you get it. If you get it. Much like the HMO situation with the MRI on the shoulder. Indeed, oldfart has described EXACTLY what you see in socialized health care - rationing. I lived roughly half of my life in England and half in the US of A. On the whole I find the health care to be comparable, just funded differently. In UK I paid more tax, but got health care anywhere I wanted, without significant waiting and with a minimum of hassle. In the US I pay an insurance premium through my employer, and get health care without much waiting either, although the paperwork is more tedious. I hear horror stories from both places. In both cases I believe these to be the exceptions and not the rule. If I were really poor, I'd rather be sick in the UK.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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Skyrad 0 #12 March 23, 2004 Thats an extreamly rare case. Most operations can be brought forwards if you're willing to go private in the UK. Having said that thats all you're paying for as the chances are it will be the same team in the same hospital just a couple of months earlier. Like any big system there will always be a crack or two that someone will fall into. Nature of the beast unfortunatly.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 March 23, 2004 QuoteBut you're right. the medication I am presently on costs $21K a year and because of protection laws in Quebec, I pay a maximum of $839 a year... not to shabby!!!!! I just wish the docs could do something about my stretched a$$hole from paying income tax.... Your 'stretched a$$hole' is you paying that ($21,000 - $839 =) $20,161. We have private voluntary insurance to do that. When it's involuntary (taxes) it's the same as you walking up to your best friend, hitting them on the back of the head and stealing $20,161 from them every year. Hope you like your friends and neighbors..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #14 March 23, 2004 You can always move to Canada. But let it be known that the cost for such a "socialistic" service is much higher taxes, and a bureaucracy that rivals the bodies all the world's governments combined. There are many who come to the US (from all over the world) for faster rates of "care" because despite the costs, the quality of care can be significantly higher. Nothing if free.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #15 March 23, 2004 Oh, and one more thing. My insurance company (auto, home, property - I get health from work), invests the money they get and I get a dividend refund every six months and a very small premium - and they are one of the best companies in the US. If I gave twice that money to my government for the same insurance (I know, apples-property and oranges-health) I very much doubt I'd get any of it back and I know the service would be lousy. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #16 March 23, 2004 Your right, of course, the system is imperfect. I think the insurance companies have to much power. That said, the U.S. has ONE of the best healthcare systems in the world. It's not uncommon for people to present at the Northern boarder of our country having M.I.'s(heart attacks) because our care is secont to...to Switzerland.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #17 March 23, 2004 well it also depends on what state you live in too. Like Arizona, it is a community property state, it doesn't matter whose name is or isn't on it, you are still responsiable. Just like if your marriage fails and you get a divorce, and you had no pre-nup, the assets are split 50/50, same if one dies, you are still responsiable for that debt even if your name wasn't on it. Now what happens in those states that are not like that, then who ends up paying for the dead man's debt? Someone has to in one way or another. When the old lady with thousands of cats and no family dies, who pays for her funeral...we all do. Just like we pay for those prisoners in the pen. We pay for their housing, utilities and food. We pay for their health care and their death penalties and then their funerals. We actually pay for a lot of things, not that there really is a choice, but one way or another we do, but there really isn't a better solution to the problem. Hell if you really want to look at it in the whole picture, we pay for one another's jumps, some how someway....for instance you buy a tank of gas, from that profit it pay's Joe's salary, of which he pays taxes that pay for lots of things and he pays his rent, that land lord, could be Skymama and she then turns and spends that money on jumps and beer and donates to HH and it goes on and on . I was just saying that pretty much everything is messed up in one way or another, but then again it is also good. Just depends on how you look at it. Edited to add...it is just like you have to have a license to get married, and if that marriage fails, not only do you have that stress and hurt feelings of it, but you have to go and spend a lot of money to the government to undo that license to be free of each other and move on....I thought marriage was part of religion in the first place and what happend to religion and state being seperrated? But then again, the government would lose a ton of money if people could just divorce like they break up with someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 March 23, 2004 From a local radio show "Euphorians can't link" (and the kittens can be broken down and sold for soup stock to defray the cost of the funeral) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #19 March 23, 2004 >When it's involuntary (taxes) it's the same as you walking up to your > best friend, hitting them on the back of the head and stealing > $20,161 from them every year. Hope you like your friends and > neighbors..... How much do you steal from your best friend every year? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #20 March 23, 2004 Waaah.......waaaaah......such whining!Sure the system isnt perfect, but at least we arent bloody socialist (yet) and can still somewhat determine our own destiny.I have no problems "at all" with my health policy,its affordable,I have a $20 co pay and I get to pick the Dr's.....I still believe that in a free market economy they can do it better quicker and for less cost than a comparable socialist medical system.The biggest problem we have are too many litigious people and too many attorneys!!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 March 23, 2004 Quote> How much do you steal from your best friend every year? $17.34 ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #22 March 23, 2004 My best friend, pays my rent and the electricity and the trash and the phone bill which includes the DSL oh yeah and buys me jumps and pays for my repacks, and takes me out...however, I pay for the gas, the cable, the water and we split the groceries... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #23 March 23, 2004 Quotebut at least we arent bloody socialist (yet) Um, yes we are... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #24 March 24, 2004 In B.C. Canada we have something called "fair pharmacare coverage" ...so depending on your earnings each year you are charged (I pay first $2,000. medical for the year and anything over that amount I do not pay..) Do not pay for dr. appt., mri, cat scan, operations, birth of babies, hospital fees, x-rays, lab work...only for perscribed meds at drug store--a $5. fee for each physio appt. and $20. charge for ambulance fee. At work I am covered for extended health with blue cross insurance so- every year send in receipts for all medical payments made-and get back everything over $100. paid. Not all get this coverage thru their work. Also have dental coverage through blue cross which covers 80% basic (cleaning-Xrays-fillings)60% (root canals, bridges, crowns) SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #25 March 24, 2004 Quote I was in England a couple of years ago, when there was a big row over a man who cashed in some retirement so he could go to Belgium to get a surgery needed to prevent paralysis. He was on the list to get the surgery in something like 18 months. Also, he couldn't pay to advance his surgery date. The doctors told him he'd be paralyzed within a year. In Canada and England medical care is free - when you get it. If you get it. Much like the HMO situation with the MRI on the shoulder. Indeed, oldfart has described EXACTLY what you see in socialized health care - rationing. I lived roughly half of my life in England and half in the US of A. On the whole I find the health care to be comparable, just funded differently. In UK I paid more tax, but got health care anywhere I wanted, without significant waiting and with a minimum of hassle. In the US I pay an insurance premium through my employer, and get health care without much waiting either, although the paperwork is more tedious. I hear horror stories from both places. In both cases I believe these to be the exceptions and not the rule. If I were really poor, I'd rather be sick in the UK.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
