yoink 321 #26 June 23, 2004 Quote My questions is: What can we do about this? Not 'we' as in experienced skydivers (I certainty don't qualify as one of those) It's worth remembering that sometimes it isn't about experience. A friend of yours may not listen to the DZO but might listen to you - even with low jump numbers, it's still up to us to try and keep people safe, not just palm it off with the excuse that 'we don't have the experience'... Everyone is responsible - or should be anyway... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #27 June 23, 2004 Well said Brian.....Nice to know that Some people do care Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #28 June 23, 2004 This is very sad to hear!!! I am glad you are not the Pope, or Mother Teresa!!! You can not save the world or all the skydivers in it!!! You must continue to lead by example, teach who you can, learn from everyone, and hope to help those who will listen. Teach respect for the sport, every person who will not listen to reason is a challenge, take that challenge and learn how to make them understand your side of the situation!! NEVER QUIT!!! ArvelBSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #29 June 23, 2004 QuoteYou can sit around and bitch, complain and point fingers and beg someone else to do something about it, but until you actually do something about it yourself, nothing will change. And guess what - it won't happen the first time you try it either. We haven't met, and clearly you don't know me. I am a newly minted AFF-I and Tandem instructor specifically so I can pass on what good habits I have and encourage new jumpers to learn from what mistakes I have made. I teach ground school almost every week. I'm giving plenty. It's expected from my peer group. I am doing exactly what you suggest. I am laying a guilt trip on the folks that allow a critical incident to occur and then say "I knew that was going to happen". If a jumper is allowed to jump on the word of one experienced jumper, then a group of skydivers should do an intervention with the DZM/O. I have recieved some very nice PM's regarding this post, one from one of the best DZM's ever. Your grouchy little critique does not sting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #30 June 23, 2004 Right on. I feel your frustration. I will not jump at unsafe dropzones where the owner/management/S&TA is not concerned with someone's safety. In fact, I recently had to make the decision to no longer jump at a dropzone that I really enjoyed the people/scene for that exact reason. But there are lots of great dzs where people do really really care. So, it's cool fool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #31 June 23, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #32 June 23, 2004 QuoteYour grouchy little critique does not sting. Good on you Deuce. You're far above that. I think it's awesome that you take your time and help out newer jumpers to make them safe. I'm one of the guilty ones that got in way over my head when i was a 100 jump wonder. Thanks to my awesome freinds at SGC (Phreezone, mosby, WB, carrie) for taking the time to convince me that a stiletto was a STUPID choice for me at 100 jumps. Anyhoo, keep doing what you're doing deucey. We need more peeps like you. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #33 June 23, 2004 QuoteSome DZs do care. We recently had a jumper, a very good jumper, pull very low. Our club president grounded him. It wasn't so much the low pull as it was the attitude that followed. "I wasn't worried so you shouldn't be either" and then the temper tantrum after being grounded didn't help either. I think if he had agreed that he pulled low and said he would be more careful from now on, the whole thing would have ended right there. I was glad the incident happened, and I was glad that it had the outcome it did. So you see, some places really do care about safety. Agreed Patrick...here is another scenario: I just had a very welcomed phone call from a DZ in Switzerland! A member of our staff was there visiting and wanted to make a jump. The DZM would NOT let him jump because he was jumping a VERY small canopy. The DZM called and wanted verification that he was proficient jumping such a small canopy and wanted a snapshot of his jumper ledger / currency. HATS OFF TO THAT DZ!!!! <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #34 June 23, 2004 Nope, I don't know you, and you don't know me either if you think that was grouchy. Also, the post was more of a general response to all of those that are willing to do nothing, sit around and bitch/post about it or just give up. It's good to hear that you do not fall into that category...however, your opening statement of your post made it sound like you were feeling that way. I feel that as many people that there are plenty of people in this sport that give out bad advice. I also feel there are plenty of people that do nothing to make sure another avoidable incident can happen. Both types of people make me wonder what their motivations are._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #35 June 23, 2004 QuoteAlso, the post was more of a general response Then make that clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueskyserenity 0 #36 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. Please don't give up on us. We are there. We do listen. We do have respect for the sport and for those with more experience. This is not a textbook/video sport. This is a hands-on, in your face, be safe and smart sport (if you want to stay around). New jumpers rely on you for guidance, support, understanding...I could go on and on...There are those of us who consider you guys invaluable. Absolutely priceless. We yearn to soak up the wisdom and the knowledge each of you instill in us. Some people tend to be too 'spongy' and leave a bad name for the rest of us. I don't take any of you for granted...Thank you for what you do for this sport!!I like coconuts. You can break them open and they smell like ladies lying in the sun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #37 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. You just think you don't. They are out there, but they are the ones doing it "right". They are the ones on landing that aren't noticed, because they are doing safely. Next time look out in the landing area and find the guy that did it right/safe and let him know he did a good job. They are our there Ron. Don't stop trying. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taylor610 0 #38 June 23, 2004 We haven't met, and clearly you don't know me. I am a newly minted AFF-I and Tandem instructor specifically so I can pass on what good habits I have and encourage new jumpers to learn from what mistakes I have made. I teach ground school almost every week. *** I hope that your enthusiasm carries on with you as time goes on. It is a tough sport. I remember Hooknswoop when he was a lot "younger" in the sport and challenging "my last nerve". I congratulate him on his growth in the sport and reputation that he has now. I am proud of what he turned out to be, but there was a day when... I owned a DZ until last year when I sold it. 4 years ago, I made it MANDATORY, to jump at my DZ, you had to have a cypres or a USPA D-Lic. It was recommended that I leave the D-Lic loophole because of legal issues surrounding my lease with the county and "possible discrimination issues". I took a lot of heat for what I did, a lot of heat. I also had a lot of supporters, and there are arguments on both sides. I made my decision and stood by it. My point Duece is don't quit on the younger jumpers, they are the future of our sport. Don't forget that it is a world driven by attorneys and their interpretation of the law. If they think they can sue you and get something, they will, so it is a problem for the DZ. This makes it tough on DZO's to "regulate" anything. All my years taught me that leadership by example, is one of the best remedies. You, as an "AFF I" set the example for everyone, including your DZO, so it is your problem too. These people are learning from someone, what to do and what not to do. I ask, what do you teach by example. (I don't know you, and I am not "accusing" you of anything, just asking you to self exam.) You can make a difference. I am living in "semi-retirement" from skydiving right now. I don't like the direction that the sport is going either. I also have talked to Hooknswoop since he left the sport as an active participant and I respect (did I say that) and appreciate his insite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vt1977 0 #39 June 23, 2004 Ok, so this may be seen by some as a rant… but I don’t care. It is high time that skydivers in general (and particularly those in the 100-300 jumps bracket) realise that it is NOT the canopy that makes a cool landing. It is the pilot. I wish that those same jumpers (normally male, normally at around 100-300 jumps) would wake up and smell the coffee, stop investing in the latest tiny pocket rocket and instead start investing in some much needed canopy coaching to learn the skills needed to get a great landing from anything. Something needs to be done. The problem with canopy coaching being optional as at present, is that the people who really need it, the ones I expect to be reading about in the incidents forum at some point in the future do not seek it! I did a basic canopy control course earlier this season and, with just under 1,000 jumps, was the most experienced participant on the course, one of only 3 with over 200 jumps and most of the others had under 100 jumps! wtf? Do people really believe that having survived 200 jumps means they have nothing more to learn about their canopies? Or do they think they are exceptional and better than everyone else? And as for those that want to downsize because they are “bored” under canopy… don’t even get me started! A canopy coach will teach you a load of stuff to try on your current canopy which will keep you from being “bored” for a long time. If you can’t be bothered to get the coaching and learn how to REALLY fly your current canopy, then maybe being “bored” under canopy is the least of your problems… If you want to look good – please – invest in upsizing your skills rather than downsizing your canopy. Rant over! Vicki Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #40 June 23, 2004 Quoteplease – invest in upsizing your skills rather than downsizing your canopy What a perfect statement. I would add to that ...please practice constant vigilance. No one is exempt from bad things happening. I understand the frustrations of Hook and Deuce, but I also know that we lead by example. Missy says: "Never stop trying" but even greater than that, she says: "Learning Never Stops" I could write an entire novella on this post. What I would say to everyone is this: I would rather be on the far left side of the line when it comes to safety. I will and do express my opinions on the drop zone. If by chance someone comes to you and expresses a concern, please take it in the way it was intended rather than taking it personally. We all agree that we want each and everyone of us to skydive another day. X's and O's B2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LivingLegend 0 #41 June 23, 2004 reading this thread the last couple days has taken the shine off the sport for me Is this what us newbies have to look forward to ? ________________________________________ 1.618 ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #42 June 23, 2004 QuoteIs this what us newbies have to look forward to ? What do you mean this? People hurting themselves? Yea, it happens. People being stoopid? that too. People not caring about others? Yep. People realy caring about others? yes again. What made you think skydiving was different then the rest of society?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #43 June 23, 2004 QuoteDropzones let organizers jump for free so that they attract business. When everybody but the organizer sees the danger, then the dropzone management has to step up. What hurts more, losing a big-name organizer who draws people in to the sport or a fatality/crippling? I sincerely hope you're not referring to me here. You've seen me give marching orders to safety risk jumpers more than once. It's a free skydive for sure, but the safety of me and my group is worth more than the price of one jump ticket. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #44 June 23, 2004 OK folks. The fuck him let him die stuff is what I am opposed to. It's in response to some statements by some folks that skydivers with poor judgement are going to kill themselves anyway, so why alienate them and their friends and lose business to the dropzones that will allow them to kill themselves. My point is to gang up on the DZM/O's who are looking the other way and force aggressive idiots off the DZ through economic pressure and guilt. Gareth: You know better. My point is that the 14 skydivers you take up on 10 loads a day are worth more to a DZ than the 100 jump wonder with the mail order VX90. And it hurts business. I think it's reprehensible to get tandems out the way we do, and then have them and their families see a helicopter evac. I am not directing my comments to any person or DZ in particular, but to the skydiving culture in general. I was a cop before MADD made drunk driving uncool. Making something people tolerate into something that they don't takes time and cultural/peer pressure. I advocate that we bring it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #45 June 23, 2004 Quotethe 100 jump wonder with the mail order VX90. It ain't mail order companies that are selling these canopies to these kids - at least it ain't my company or the company I used to work for anyway. I'd like to believe that the majority of "mail order" gear dealers would refuse to sell a Velocity at any wing loading to someone with 300 jumps (or less). I know better than to think that Joe Jumper wouldn't sell his used VX90 to the same person though. Point the finger where the finger should be pointed... not at the easiest target to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #46 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. Well, here is one that listened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfers98 0 #47 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. Well, here is one that listened. And here's another one. I think you highly experienced jumpers need to hear once in a while that your advice doesn't fall on deaf ears. I've learned a lot from the threads on dz.com and just want to say thank-you. Keep it up guys, we nubes really are listening and, speaking for myself, acting on your advice by following a safer progression into the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WILDBILLAQR 0 #48 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. Well, here is one that listened. And here's another one. I think you highly experienced jumpers need to hear once in a while that your advice doesn't fall on deaf ears. I've learned a lot from the threads on dz.com and just want to say thank-you. Keep it up guys, we nubes really are listening and, speaking for myself, acting on your advice by following a safer progression into the sport. AND ANOTHER! The other day I was talking to a newer jumper about downsizing, and how it seems that once a year the whole DZ downsizes. I told her that this fall, when the cycle starts, I wont be changing. I explained that I dont feel I have masterd the canopy I'm flying and would like to have 300 to 400 more jumps on it. She then asked what skilles I was working on and I showed her Billvons list. Maybe she'll be yet another to listen---------------------------------------------- "Thats not smoke, thats BUCKEYE!!" AQR#3,CWR#49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #49 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. I recently did Check Dives with a couple of students which I have also did several AFFs with. These 2 went to Bonehead to get some helmets and stopped by Perris as the incident took place. We've discussed downsizing, proper canopy training, and the dangers of low turns throught their training. Both are good skydivers and canopy pilots, but one is getting a little over confident. They approached me when they returned and let us know how much they appreciate our advice and why we say what we say. Too bad it takes a serious accident for most people to get the message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #50 June 23, 2004 well, I figure that everyone can teach me something... if I can't learn from their example, I can learn from their mistakes. All through AFF, I had instructors talking to me about being careful, not downsizing too quickly, and safety in the air. Here's another one who listened. Silhouette 190, and staying there for a LONG time to come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
