Anyone tired of these fatalities?

[Kbone 0]

Does anybody ever get so jaded that they just don't care anymore when someone bounces?

It seems like a circle. Someone bounces, then there are 300 posts on DZ.com saying what a wonderful person you were then there is usually an ash dive or tribute of some sort. It has almost become a cliche'. One shit storm after another.

I guess what bugs me the most is that 90% of these fatalities are 100% avoidable.

I'm mostly interested in gathering opinions and viewpoints from people who have been in the sport a while (over 10 years). When did you stop caring? Did you ever care in the first place?

I'm looking for serious responses only please! No mud slinging! Any tyranical comments will go unanswered.

[scottbre 0]

I don't stop caring. But if you don't like hearing about people dying or think that it's making you too jaded, then you're probably in the wrong sport my friend.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[mr2mk1g 10]

I'll stop caring when 100% are prevented.

[mouth 0]

I feel sorry for you if you have stopped caring just because the fatalities are preventable. Drunk driving accidents are preventable but they happen. Shooting are preventable but they happen. Pregnancy is preventable but it happens. Just seems sad IMHO if you are so jaded that you no longer care.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[cocheese 0]

I don't think it will ever stop hurting to hear bad news in this sport. Even the people you never met... hurts to think about the pain the loved ones go through. If we lose 25-30 skydivers a year, there will be pain about every two weeks. The more people you know, the more often and deeper the pain. But the more people you know, the more fun and love you have when times are good in the sport. The love for the game overrides the pain.

[wildblue 4]

I mean no.

Which question am I answering?? Am I tired of fatalitites? Yes. Am I 'jaded' - no, but I never cared that much in the first place.

The problem with dz.com is everyone 'knows' everyone. It's sometimes a bit much, pushing the melodramatic.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Dagny 0]

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100% avoidable.

As are most accidents which occur in life. That shouldn't cheapen the life of the person or make their death inconsequential. The best way to handle accidental deaths? Prevention. The best way to avoid dying skydiving? Stop throwing yourself into mid-air at altitude. Since few of us here are willing to give up the benefits we get from jumping, the next best thing would be proper training and a conservative approach to pushing the envelope (almost an oxymoron in itself). Assuming that chance doesn't throw you something you can't handle or react to within the 2 minute window from altitude to earth. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it won't. No one is immune from a moment of indecision or a mistake in judgement. Complaceny (jadedness) increases the risk.

I haven't been in this sport for very long, but I know death. There are mechanisms that people use to deal with loss and repetitive loss such as what health care workers and skydivers (at least this damn month) experience. That's normal.

But, these comments...

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...they just don't care anymore when someone bounces...become a cliche'

...disturb me. Maybe it's your coping mechanism. For me, every death I've encountered that has been accidental (or not) and stolen someone who had years of life left in them has offended me on a personal level. It doesn't mean I grieve over every person I encounter, but it does make me sad and angry to see these things happen.

I hope you haven't lost touch with the part of you that feels such empathy. It's a sad day when someone stops caring.

Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

[teason 0]

We all know what we're supposed to say

and here is is; You should never stop caring, Skydiving is about embracing life ...yadda yadda yadda...blah, blah, blah.

Here's the reality from someone who knows.

When we lose a friend or loved one, it's devastating. The concept that they are gone is so foreign that we have a hard time functioning for a while. We get mad, sad, and basically run the gammit of emotion.

I remember, after losing about 5 friends and family (also my dog) in 3 months, that towards the end I statred to feel quite numb. I don't know if it was all the emotional highs and lows I went through or what, but I do remember feeling a great deal of guilt.

I felt guilty that I wasn't as sad as I thought I should be. My first friend to die wasn't closer to me than my last but I didn't feel the loss as great. It was almost as if I couldn't feel anymore. I was burnt out.

Now, whenever someone I know dies, I tend to think more clearly than others around me. I get over the loss quicker. I find that this often allows me to be there for others. It helps me put things into greater perspective. When I think of them, it also helps me focus on their life and not their death.

If you feel less and less with each death, it's not cause you jaded, or cold. Unfortunately, it's cause you're used to it and it has less impact.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[gjhdiver 0]

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Does anybody ever get so jaded that they just don't care anymore when someone bounces?

It's not so much a case of not caring, as a defense mechanism for a lot of people. If you spent that much energy caring that hard all the time, you wouldn't be able to function normally, let alone jump.

When I was managing Z Hills, I hard to learn to switch off a lot of times after an accident or fatality, because I wouldn't have been able to do all the stuff that I needed to without doing so. I've had to watch friends breath their last on the ground, and do the body and gear inspections more time than I want to remember.

We're dealing with a sport that offers great thrills and community. The price we pay for that is the risk of serious injury or death every time we indulge in it. As a group, we internalize that risk, and put it out of our minds. It's only when the inevitable happens, and just like every other kind of accident, it is inevitable eventually, that we get to concentrate on the bottom line and the consequences of an activity that is basically suicidal, but that we take for granted.

To a certain extent, we revel in that danger, and for many, overcoming that fear gives us condifence in ourselves that we carry into the rest of our lives. The best thing an accident or fatality can teach us, is that we always walk that line, and to always remember where it lies.

[reggie 0]

great answer.

Play with your children.....it's the best investment you'll ever make.
www.discoverytoyslink.com/amysbluesky

[Kbone 0]

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If you feel less and less with each death, it's not cause you jaded, or cold. Unfortunately, it's cause you're used to it and it has less impact.

I enjoyed reading your post.

It put my feelings on this subject into perspective.

The recent fatality at Perris was like deja' vu. I've seen Adria a few times, I recognized her in the photo that was posted, she was a very pretty girl. Never met her though. I guess now it's too late.

[Tonto 1]

On the 2nd of February next year I'll have been jumping 20 years.

I lost my 1st freind to the sport a year after I started, with about 100 jumps. Twisted leg strap on a ROL throwout, no reserve drills. Those pre Cypres days..

There have been many since then, including a few I called "friend" among the 14 jumpers who died in the Perris Otter crash in 1992 while I was there.

Most recent was last year, another friend.

I'll never stop caring, but I've moved on from anger to sadness.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Kbone 0]

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The best thing an accident or fatality can teach us, is that we always walk that line, and to always remember where it lies.

Another great post! Thank you!!

[sunshine 2]

Ok, i don't know exactly how to get this in words and i'm scared it's gonna come out cold and heartless, but here goes.

In my opinion people want sympathy. When someone dies, it stops being about the sadness of a person losing their life. Somehow it becomes about people wanting/expecting sympathy cause they "lost a freind." When it's truly a friend or loved one that you lost, it's tragic. But when you're jumping on the bandwagon of "pity me, someone i talked to once at the DZ died" it's pathetic. I'm not jaded about death, but i'm jaded to people's motives. I've lost quite a few friends. And i've been at the DZ when people i didn't know have died. Am i heartless to say i was sadder about losing my friends than some unknown jumpers?

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Tonto 1]

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Am i heartless to say i was sadder about losing my friends than some unknown jumpers?

No. That's honesty.

Many people somehow WANT to share the sadness of the 1st death they've experienced at the DZ even if it's distanced by them not knowing the person.

It reminds me of the eagerness some young soldiers have of being "Blooded" and the tiredness old soldiers have of the waste involved in that rite.

I was told by an old instructor a long time ago -

"Don't go running out there. There will be a time when you'll be called out there because you're it. You'll be the guy who knows what to do. Hopefully by then your love for the sport will be strong enough to overide the images that will remain with you."

He was absolutely right.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[freeflybella 0]

If you only look at these incidents from a perpective of how they directly affect you - I can see how you might become jaded or callous.

You're only looking at the surface. The incident report, the post for vibes, the ash dives, etc. It's not a shit storm - That's the collective coming-together of the community in a time of need. A show of support that is actually helpful to those personally affected. Much less so to the casual observer.

You're not looking at a day to day picture of the lives of those left behind - the lives of those truly affected.

I'd bet if you made a list of your very closest friends - and then one by one they bounced - you would not become "jaded".

I'm not sure what you mean by "just don't care when someone bounces". Possibly detached?

To some degree, that's understandable. If we were fully empathetic to others' pain, we'd be incapacitated. So we detach - we offer sincere condolences and then go give extra big hugs to our own loved ones. Doctors do it. Police do it. Soldiers do it. To some extent, so do we.

"Not caring" is different.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Kbone 0]

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"pity me, someone i talked to once at the DZ died" it's pathetic.

I've seen this behavior before. It is the drama factor that people are drawn to.

[MarkM 0]

I don't think this is at all unusual. People today are generally very sheltered from death. There's an old obscure cliche that people that grow up on a farm handle the grieving process more easily, because they were exposed to death a lot more as children(having to deal with animals on the farm dying).

Just because you don't feel the same drama as others, doesn't make you jaded or mean you don't care. You just have a different perspective on death that's based on more exposure to it.

[happythoughts 0]

It isn't always fatalities, I get more sad at seeing broken people. A life-altering injury.

Actually, what I get tired of is the reaction that I get when I say "Based on past experience, this is a bad idea..."

People need to realize that good decisions are based on good information. Good information usually comes from seeing a certain scenario repeat itself.

Bad decisions usually start out as, "I've thought about it. I feel confident that I can do it. I'll give it a try."

This sport is too unforgiving about mistakes.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Ok, i don't know exactly how to get this in words and i'm scared it's gonna come out cold and heartless, but here goes.

In my opinion people want sympathy. When someone dies, it stops being about the sadness of a person losing their life. Somehow it becomes about people wanting/expecting sympathy cause they "lost a freind." When it's truly a friend or loved one that you lost, it's tragic. But when you're jumping on the bandwagon of "pity me, someone i talked to once at the DZ died" it's pathetic. I'm not jaded about death, but i'm jaded to people's motives. I've lost quite a few friends. And i've been at the DZ when people i didn't know have died. Am i heartless to say i was sadder about losing my friends than some unknown jumpers?

I was really afraid that I might be doing this when a friend died from our DZ in April. He passed away of cancer, not a mal. He did some coaching jumps with me, and I'd been partying at his place with him and his then girlfriend later wife and sending e-mails, but his other friends were so very close to him that I didn't want to overstep my bounds and intrude. I kinda felt confused as far as my friendship towards the couple because they are such great people, and have so many wonderful friends, I just wanted to be happy for them from a distance to not seem like I was trying to be someplace I wasn't invited? Does that make any sense at all?? Those two were the life of the party & fun to be with! Me I'm the wall flower but very happy to be around people...just more reserved I think...

Anyhow, when he passed away I just wanted to try to find my own solution to the pain alone, not to be one of these people you were talking about Sunny (because geez I've seen a TON of that in my family and it's kinda sickening). I have had to deal with death a LOT in my family, and unfortunately, a lot to cancer...but this was the first time in my life I have ever lost someone I considered to be a friend, and I have to tell you it totally shook me up. I can't understand it. I am a seasoned confronter of death. I am not a very emotional person. He was an amazing man, but I haven't had this hard of a time with my grandparents' deaths, aunts, etc...I just don't get that??

Ya know, in the end, I think it probably was hard on me because when I think about him, I really think about his widow. I think how I would be completely crushed if my husband was taken from me like that, and I hurt for her more than anything else.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Zee 0]

I've been involved in so called "extreme activities" for over 20 years now and during this time I've seen my fair share of accidents, serious injuries (quite a few have been my own) and unfortunately, death.

My view on the subject is pretty simple - Everyone who willingly participates in these types of activities needs to realize the serious nature of what they're doing and take full personal responsibility for it. Americans are especially prone to shifting blame and responsibilities - It's always someone else's fault. I've just never seen it that way. I mean, you willingly jumped out of the plane. What ever happens next is subsequent to that decision. It's never a good thing when someone burns in but hey, if you feel that you're qualified to pull low 360 degree hooks on final and end up killing yourself in the process, tragic as it may be, it's still your fault.

There are of course many other situations that are out of our control but that is also a major part of the sport. So, if you're not willing to absorb the risks involved in a particular sport then you need to find an activity with more acceptable levels of danger.

As far as when I stopped caring when someone bounces, I've never stopped, but I never let it effect me that much to begin with. I've had a few very close friends burn in or die in accidents of a different nature and it most certainly hurts when your good friends are taken. I still care when a fellow skydiver, motorcycle rider, or skier, bites the dusts but, I have never and will never let it prevent me from participating and enjoying the activities that have filled my life with so much excitement over the years.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[winsor 187]

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Does anybody ever get so jaded that they just don't care anymore when someone bounces?

It seems like a circle. Someone bounces, then there are 300 posts on DZ.com saying what a wonderful person you were then there is usually an ash dive or tribute of some sort. It has almost become a cliche'. One shit storm after another.

I guess what bugs me the most is that 90% of these fatalities are 100% avoidable.

I'm mostly interested in gathering opinions and viewpoints from people who have been in the sport a while (over 10 years). When did you stop caring? Did you ever care in the first place?

I'm looking for serious responses only please! No mud slinging! Any tyranical comments will go unanswered.

My reaction to fatalities is hardly uniform.

The loss of a friend can leave me in tears; even now the memory of a farewell that turned out to be the last makes my throat tight, and I am grateful that I had the opportunity to say how much I valued them.

OTOH, I am devoid of sympathy for some people whose Darwinian exploits left but a legacy of destruction in their wake. The guy who put his body in the way of the 412 rotor at the Convention comes to mind.

In general, I am concerned that people's sentimentality gets in the way of their objectivity. They can't separate the facts surrounding the loss of someone from their emotional attachment to them.

I have lost friends who didn't have a chance, such as when aircraft have crashed, as well as friends who made a couple of mistakes and ran out of options. I do not think I have to pretend that those who died as a result of bad choices really did not err in order to grieve their loss. In fact, I think denial is one of the most dangerous pitfalls of losing someone close, since it can blind one to very real dangers that we all face.

The best and the brightest are not immune to the results of a lapse on any particular jump. I can think of a list of world champions who are no longer with us as a result of easily avoidable circumstances.

My reaction to people bouncing is to work with the people around me to increase the likelihood that we will all survive each and every jump. When I ask people to check their gear a couple of minutes before exit, the only people who give me a hard time are friends - while they're checking their gear. Enough potential problems have shown up that I think the effort is worthwhile.

As far as botched swoops and panic turns, we have a long way to go to get a handle on the issue of high-speed dirt under a good canopy. The reality is that the equipment has evolved faster than has the skillset of the jumping population, and it is going to take some years to stabilize.

In any event, when people die in the sport there should be both a clinical analysis of the circumstances of their death and the search for lessons to learn, as well as a mechanism to deal with the grief of the survivors. These functions are both important, and should not interfere with each other.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[JohnRich 4]

You never stop caring.

I still wince every time I enter the forums and see a "new message" highlighted in red in the "Incidents" section.

You just come to accept the fact that people are going to be hurt, and you go on with the sport. It's no different from the fact that friends will be hurt in auto accidents, and from diseases. It's part of life, and you have to deal with it.

[GravityGirl 0]

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I don't stop caring. But if you don't like hearing about people dying or think that it's making you too jaded, then you're probably in the wrong sport my friend.

Give me that same quote in 10 years.

Long term effects of repeated heart breaks are interesting, to say the least.

It is in endless cycle of self reflection, but in the end, I always end up with the same question and answer:

"Where else would I go?" Nobody outside this disfunctional family would really relate to me now.

"What else would I do?" I can't spend the rest of my life crawling around on the ground looking up. I simply NEED to fly and look down on it all from time to time.

Try to remember that as low as you go, you'll bounce back just as high.

See you up there....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[cderham 0]

My feeling is that this sport is one of "no mistakes and zero tolerance" You must be completely confident of you actions because if you are not and can not make the right decision at the right time. Then Luck must be on your side. Mistakes are what takes 90% of our friends from us in skydiving.

I feel sorry for the families of the people that die from these types of accidents. But I sometimes think that maybe it was not meant for them to be in this sport. This is a extremly deadly sport when you get complacent or cocky!! If you walk away or are carried away from an accident and live to talk about it consider yourself lucky and rethink the value of your life to your family compared to skydiving. I have watched people "hook-it in" and after the accident when they are watching video there first comment was "Damn I was way too low." Ya no shit maybe that is why you smacked the ground.

I am truly saddened when something happens to someone who handled their situations in the correct way. For instance the students who died when their harness systems failed causing their deaths. We all place or total faith in our equipment manufacturers. But when they fail on occasion (and they will they are only human) the tragidy is when it takes a skydivers life for everyone of us to be safer in the sport we are so passionate about. I will honor these people for saving my life every jump. Also when someone's life ends due to someone elses mistake like canopy collision, freefall collision etc... These are risks we take in the sport and I know that but when someone almost drills in and looks back at it like it is no big deal. Keep this person out of the air with me because I don't want his mistake to kill me.

Don't get me wrong I will still give the decessed the respect they deserve. And will be saddened by the thought of not having them around in my life anymore. But if they made mistakes that led to their death it will be different then if they did everything right and still passed away. I am a firm believer that everyone has a time. And when my time is up my time is up. No matter if it is skydiving, riding my motorcycle, walking across the street or laying in bed when I am called I must go.

Blu-Skyz forever

Chris

If I have offended anyone I am sorry but this is how I have learned to deal with the losses I have encountered in my life.

Chris
It's Jimmy Time!!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213