Anyone tired of these fatalities?

[Islandcool 0]

I had to think about my feelings on this one. When I first heard about the Adria's incident I was honestly like "well that's sad". I only talked to her a few times and it was never more than a "How was your jump?" or "How ya doin'?" I saw her at the DZ all the time. Then I remembered sitting across from her on loads and just cracking a smile. I remembered just that greeting of hi or how was you jump with a smile attached to it. The sadness was a little deeper and there was a greater sense of loss. Myself, I don't know how to handle death well. I'm getting older tho and I've had to deal with it more in the last few years. I always felt like I had to do or say something profound for it to make a difference. Over the years I have found that a simple prayer and a condolence is all that is really needed. Maybe there are those that just don't know what to do when someone dies.

Ed

[tbrown 26]

Too many fatalities and close calls were some of the reasons I left the sport 24 years ago. Those were people who died from low pulls, no pulls, pulling their reserves without a cutaway, or one friend who did everything right but died anyway because of a faulty reserve deployment system (an old round reserve by a company no longer in the business, so no need for anyone nowadays to be concerned). I finally got the feeling that the sport might be stalking me and all I had to do for my number to come up was just keep on jumping.

The sport I cam back to last year after my Rip Van Winkle absence has become much safer - and much more dangerous at the same time. Very few people fall out of the sky and go splat anymore, thanks mostly to RSL's, reliable AAD's, and square reserves that open really fast. Getting something to open just isn't the big problem anymore, it's what we do with a perfectly good parachute after it's opened.

When somebody fell out of the sky and went splat, that was it, they were dead, end of story. Nowadays we have these agonizing rituals of calling 911, waiting for the medevac chopper, watching the chopper fly away with our friend, and an exhausted core of devoted friends and family keeping a vigil around the ICU before death comes some days later. This just happened again here in So. Cal. this week, for the second time this summer. I didn't really know either of the two victims and both were doing something "I would never do" (God willing). And between them is another friend who did the same kind of thing, but by some miracle survived without a single broken bone. All at the same dropzone.

At the immediate level, I think there's going to have to be more FORMAL canopy instruction, on a graded pass/fail basis included in license requirements. It's depressing that as we've mostly solved the old "chute failed to open" problem, we now have a "chute opened just fine, but..." problem that's maintaining the old fatality rates. That's just not acceptable. Cranking it into the ground because you don't unnderstand what you're doing is not acceptable. Taking out Roger Nelson - or anyone else - because you weren't looking where you were going is grossly unacceptable.

To end on the bright side though, USPA said in the August issue of Parachutist that there have only been 8 fatalities in the US this year, add one more for this week's death in California and nine by mid-August still is amazingly good. So let's find hope where we can and let's all ask ourselves if we can't each clean up our acts in one or two identifiable ways.

Blue skies & fuck the black death stuff.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[tunaplanet 0]

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But when you're jumping on the bandwagon of "pity me, someone i talked to once at the DZ died" it's pathetic.

I agree 100%.

Forty-two

[tunaplanet 0]

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It is the drama factor that people are drawn to.

Correct. People for some reason love to be in or involved in attention. It is beyond most people to just deal with something internally and move on. Too much insecure attention seekers running around.

In the Navy I had a friend die two weeks after an incident we encountered. Did anyone in our squad cry, bitch, moan or whine? Did anyone jump on a forum and beg for attention/vibes? Hardly. We dealt with it.

This entire issue is all about attention. Very few people are actually touched nor effected by the death of someone at their own DZ. Of course from the looks of the boards and hearing these people at the bars you wouldn't know it. Everyone wants to make out like they are trying to "cope" with this tragic incident.

Let's leave the attention-getting alone and just act like mature adults.

Forty-two

[neoteng 0]

where is the love?

[happythoughts 0]

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This entire issue is all about attention. Very few people are actually touched nor effected by the death of someone at their own DZ.

When I am talking to someone in person, it is difficult to gauge the depth of their feelings on a certain topic. More difficult through the internet.

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Everyone wants to make out like they are trying to "cope" with this tragic incident.

I don't believe that everyone act/thinks the same way. I don't believe that they cope with events the same way either. I couldn't define one way as "better".

[jose 0]

Tuna, I think that this is the second time I have said this, but I need to buy you a beer and bullshit with you sometime. We think alot alike.

Here's what is really annoying to me when these events happen. All of the low-time jumpers-DZ.Com whores come out of the woodwork to get their post in. 23 of the posts in Adrias thread had under 200 jumps and were in the sport 1 year. Most of these admitted to not even meeting or knowing Adria. One of them actually said, "I sat across from her on a load Saturday". Well whoopidee fucking doo!!!! Its not stated, but implied that somehow your more effected? If you really want to make a post, take it to the "toggles vs. risers" thread and learn how to prevent this from happening to you.

It's bothersome enough to those that actually knew and jumped with her, but to hear the melodrama of students and DZ.Com whores that didnt even know of her existence, cheapens the loss.

Edit to add: Replies as to your revelance in my post will go ignored.

[JRock 0]

I just said Fly Free and Blues to her... I don't think that is being mellow dramatic... Or am I not one of the people you are talking about?

[crwmike 0]

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Does anybody ever get so jaded that they just don't care anymore when someone bounces?

It seems like a circle. Someone bounces, then there are 300 posts on DZ.com saying what a wonderful person you were then there is usually an ash dive or tribute of some sort. It has almost become a cliche'. One shit storm after another.

I guess what bugs me the most is that 90% of these fatalities are 100% avoidable.

I'm mostly interested in gathering opinions and viewpoints from people who have been in the sport a while (over 10 years). When did you stop caring? Did you ever care in the first place?

I'm looking for serious responses only please! No mud slinging! Any tyranical comments will go unanswered.

I'll tell you what I've observed in years of working ER/Trauma. Outside of immediate family, people don't care all that much. They care about public perception and offer responses deemed socially appropriate for the occasion.

I'll tell you what they do care about ...they want a piece of the action, to insinuate themselves into an exciting story. They want to be the first to break the news, to insert themselves into the story to make their own lives more interesting. They'll show up at the hospital to get social credit for their caring (and pick up juicy bits of info to pass on to others). Their stories quickly become 'I' stories (I was just taling to him the week before, I was at the hospital for 6 hours, I was on the jump, I was at the DZ, I know someone who knows someone who knew him/her.

When the hard, demanding work needs to be done ...they ain't to be found. They're on the phone or computer telling 'I' stories.

BSBD,

Michael

[GravityGirl 0]

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My feeling is that this sport is one of "no mistakes and zero tolerance" You must be completely confident of you actions because if you are not and can not make the right decision at the right time. Then Luck must be on your side. Mistakes are what takes 90% of our friends from us in skydiving.

I feel sorry for you in a way.

I used to look at evey fatality and then rationalize why it would not happen to me. How I make better decisions. How I would have done something differently.

But the truth is that we are ALL human. Flesh and Bones. Mere mortals. Not only are we capable of making mistakes. We ALL WILL make mistakes from time to time. Including you. Including me. Let's just hope they are not fatal. But in this sport small mistakes can be.

My last malfunction (#8) was fairly straight forward. But I made a pretty stupid mistake:

Deploy 3500 feet. Spinner. Diving. Cut away. Fling off ass over tea kettle. And yes, I was arching when I cut away. My instinct said, "Get stable and pull your reserve." So I got stable and pulled my reserve.

MISTAKE: Instead of arching, I assumed a stable headdown position. Having been freeflying a lot lately, I instinctively grabbed for air with my legs at the same time I grabbed my silver handle and pulled it. Then I had a freebag on my leg. I can tell you it didn't take long to recognize and rectify. But HOW STUPID COULD I BE!

I consider myself a bad-ass, capable of handling just about anything you want to throw at me. But I fucked up a pretty simple proceedure. One that I had done before.

I am confident that I will handle any situation correctly in the future. But I am accutely aware that we all make mistakes. That is how we learn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[JRock 0]

I don't think it is fair for you to generalize on this.
Outside their immediate family they don't care that much.... BULLSHIT!!!

I unfortunately had the experience of seeing a friend in ICU with his family and friends all around him. I considered him a friend and still do even though he is gone now. But I think it is a load of crap for you to speculate outside the person's immediate family that they don't care... BUDDY... there were about 15 people outside his immediate family crying their fuckin eyes out in that hospital.

[kelel01 1]

You know, most of us in that thread were offering our condolences or saying something nice. I guess if we've never had a heartfelt conversation with someone, then it's out of line to say something nice to show respect. Why are people so cold nowadays? I guess since I didn't know anyone killed in 9/11, I should have bitched that NBC wasn't running Friends for me to watch that evening. Fuckin' people piss me off . . .

[tunaplanet 0]

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I guess since I didn't know anyone killed in 9/11, I should have bitched that NBC wasn't running Friends for me to watch that evening.

Apples and oranges.

Forty-two

[melstarr 0]

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Edit to add: Replies as to your revelance in my post will go ignored.

It's bothersome enough to those that actually knew and jumped with her, but to hear the melodrama of students and DZ.Com whores that didnt even know of her existence, cheapens the loss.

hi brad
i do hope you reply to my post, as i am asking this with all sincerity (even though i did post in Adria's thread)...

i was just wondering how prayers and thoughts would cheapen the loss?

again, i really hope you would reply, because i must tell you that i truly respect people who speak what's on their mind

~ meL* Pink Mafia / Tunnel Mafia Sister

[tunaplanet 0]

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i was just wondering how prayers and thoughts would cheapen the loss?

Last I checked, prayers and thoughts were silent and did not require speaking let alone posts on a forum.

It's your right to grieve in any manner you wish.

Forty-two

[kelel01 1]

No one said we were grieving . . . just offering a kind word to those who are.

[cderham 0]

Oh I completely agree that we are human and we all make mistakes. I have made mistakes in this sport and consider myself lucky. On my 21st jump - first jump on a BOC system - I exited on a hop and pop. went unstable as I deployed and found myself on my back w/ a pilot chute between my legs. I grabed the pilot chute and threw it into clean air. after my canopy rited me , 5 line twists , and a leg strap up around my knee. It hit me hard how 1 little mistake can take you out.

I have made alot of other mistakes and I'm positive that I will make plenty more. I just hope I am lucky then too and handle the situation right.


Chris

[tunaplanet 0]

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just offering a kind word to those who are.

I do that too for close personal friends of mine going through great tragedy.

I do not offer prayers, condolences, wisdom, thoughtful words, pick-me-ups and other forms of sympathy to people I am not close to, let alone those I do not know.

I think it's common knowledge that we wish good things to good, decent people who are going through hard times. No need to give "vibes" and other meaningless notions to strangers everytime something bad happens.

Maybe it's just me.

Forty-two

[melstarr 0]

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Last I checked, prayers and thoughts were silent and did not require speaking let alone posts on a forum.

yes, thoughts are silent... but my prayers are written you made a statement, but didn't really answer my question ~ how does it cheapen a loss?

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It's your right to grieve in any manner you wish.

of course... thankful to be in America!

~ meL* Pink Mafia / Tunnel Mafia Sister

[melstarr 0]

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Maybe it's just me.

yes, and maybe it's just us

i am thankful that you speak your mind. more people need to do that *

~ meL* Pink Mafia / Tunnel Mafia Sister

[happythoughts 0]

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I do not offer prayers, condolences, wisdom, thoughtful words, pick-me-ups and other forms of sympathy to people I am not close to, let alone those I do not know.

What is to be done with these needlessly-kind people? If this type of behavior starts to be common place, who knows what sort of damage could be caused?

What steps to correct it? How about some close-order drill? Or a good thrashing?

Hah! Pantywaists.

[dgskydive 0]

I have had 12 friends die on 10 years. Actually most of them in a 6 month period in 1996 and 1997. It didn't make me Jaded, but it did push me out of the sport for 5 years at one point until I finally realized that the hole not jumping left in my life needed to be filled again.

Now I try and enjoy my sky family as much as I can when I am with them. You never know when sombody will check out. You never know which jump may be yours or someone elses last. Enjoy them when they are here.

Forget the small shit. Be happy and enjoy life. For me that means skydiving. I would rather go out doing the most enjoyable thing in my life then to die an old man unsatisfied with the life I lived.

I want know questions in the end. Could I have? Should I have?

Am I tired of deaths? HELL YES!!!!!! Am I tired of seeing people in the prime of their life kill themselves under a perfectly good canopy? YES!!!!!!!! Would I like to see everyone grow a brain. YES!!!!!!!!! Will I stop again because people don't grow a brain? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

This sport is now my life and will be until the day I die, and if that death comes from this sport and a stupid thing I did. Well so be it. At least the last few good minutes of my life were spent doing what I love.

Dom

[usedtajump 1]

Four very close friends died while jumping during the time I was active in skydiving. Sure, I was saddened by their passing but always considered that, what the Hell, we all knew the risks and had accepted them. I just never let it bother me that much.

Might sound cold but death is just part of the deal.

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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It's bothersome enough to those that actually knew and jumped with her, but to hear the melodrama of students and DZ.Com whores that didnt even know of her existence, cheapens the loss.

Gee Brad I'm sorry to create some extra melodrama for you to sift through when I mention that my friend Holly ("Party Like a Rock Star" Holly as we still miss you) would be greeting someone I never met, never knew in Heaven. Was I trying to bring attention to myself with this post? Was I trying to make myself seem important? No ... I was just trying to extend some comforting words out there to friends of Adria that I had an idea as to what sort of emotions they were having to deal with.

Despite the fact that I know there were plenty of people who were closer to Holly than I was, the girl touched me from the moment I met her (I will spare you the story of how Holly and I met, but it is pretty cool), the times I got to party with Holly (limited as they were) and the email messages we exchanged (including the one a week or so before her death when she told me how excited she was that she would be moving to CA that summer). So when Betsy told us about Holly's accident I was in shock and was heart broken. I would also like to add that every day I am at work I am reminded of my dear lost friend as I have her picture and memorial "24 Things To Remember" handout hanging on my wall.

So instead of slamming people who are trying to extend of word of comfort and slamming the people who haven't been in the sport all that long or don't have that many jumps. Maybe you should realize that some of these people are just trying to find their niche and maybe trying to find friends here. It wasn't all that long ago that both you and I were low timers and neither one of us can be considered a seasoned jumper (check back with me in 10 years when we both have thousands of incident free jumps).

Yes there is a lot of post whoring going on at DZ.COM and yes there are a lot of people with low jump numbers and high post numbers. But what harm is it for anyone to try and offer words of condolences to a lost brother/sister. We are a community (albeit usually very dysfunctional) and the more we reach out to each other, the less we will be strangers.

I agree that people need to learn the lessons of Adria's mistake so as to hopefully not repeat them (so maybe some of these low-timers do need to spend more time reading what not to do and less time post-whoring). But hopefully people also realize that this is a dangerous sport, accidents do happened and that swooping is very unforgiving of any sort of error. Shit even swoopers with thousands of jumps are capable of messing themselves up (thinking of Dewey from Canon City right now).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dgskydive 0]

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I do not offer prayers, condolences, wisdom, thoughtful words, pick-me-ups and other forms of sympathy to people I am not close to, let alone those I do not know.

Why don't you join the human race. Why don't you become a true part of our community? If you feel no need to offer any sympathy or condolences then don't. Why do you feel the need to put others down for being a caring person?

I can tell you one thing for sure. Adria's family really appreciated every person that came to say goodybye to her. Weather they were a good friend or "sat across from her on the plane"

WHo are you to judge the way people feel and there reasons for feeling that way? Why is your way right and others wrong? How do you know the guy that sat across from her on the plane wasn't severly effected by this death? Maybe it was the first time in their life that saw that type of thing happen to somebody.

I have seen nothing but people that offered some sort of sympathy and expressed some type of emotion. That is a good thing.

Maybe things like this let people see how fragile they themselves are and that the next time it may be them or one of their really good friends.

Dom