Skyhook RSL snag on door handle, at pin cover flap

[rivetgeek 0]

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if the RSL was disconnected, that wouldnt have changed the outcome tough???

In my understanding (which is admittedly limited on the subject) disconnecting the rsl would only help if the free end were able to slip through whatever snagged it in the first place.

If the nylon itself was snagged then no, but looking at the original thread, it appears the door latch slid under the rsl, so disconnecting it likely would have prevented the incident. As would a rig that keeps the rsl under a flap

~Bones Knit, blood clots, glory is forever, and chicks dig scars.~

[virgin-burner 1]

thats why i was asking, i know how an RSL, or a skyhook for that matter works, basically, but somehow i doubt it would of prevented it when it was disconnected in this scenario..

mhm, the skyhook is great and all, but for some reason i still dont want one.. better be a dirty high puller, but being able to decide where and when to chop or have my reserve out, is a choice i'd like to keep.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JackC 0]

Am I missing something here? If the door handle can snag the yoke of a rig fitted with a Skyhook and pull the reserve pin, it could also snag a regular RSL, or for that matter the reserve rip cord itself even on a non-RSL rig couldn't it?

The only added scaryness I see from a Skyhook system (which is super extra scary I'll admit) is the Colins lanyard which could have disconnected his main.

I think the main problem here is the snag point on the aircraft, not the rig.

[piisfish 135]

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if the RSL was disconnected, that wouldnt have changed the outcome tough???

this is why you should NOT have an RSL when jumping video or CReW, connected or disconnected.

if not equipped, no problem.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

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if the RSL was disconnected, that wouldnt have changed the outcome tough???

this is why you should NOT have an RSL when jumping video or CReW, connected or disconnected.

if not equipped, no problem.

i was thinking along those lines but wasnt quite sure, thanks for clearing this up!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[piisfish 135]

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so disconnecting it likely would have prevented the incident.

what do you do with the snap shackle once disconnected ? do you allow it to float freely (and hit your face every once in a while) or do you connect it elsewhere ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Baksteen 84]

What do you mean by 'not equipped'?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

no such thing installed..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

thank you.

I read it as 'installed, but disconnected', which is also a solution that is sometimes used but which in this case probably would not have affected the outcome.

Incidentally, if I had to disconnect an RSL, I'd refasten it to the housing of the cutaway pillow.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Erroll 49]

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...you will see the door come down and hit his yolk.. .

That must have hurt!

[piisfish 135]

I meant : never installed, or completely removed

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Incidentally, if I had to disconnect an RSL, I'd refasten it to the housing of the cutaway pillow.

which would provide the same loop to get snagged by the nasty handle

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Baksteen 84]

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I meant : never installed, or completely removed

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Incidentally, if I had to disconnect an RSL, I'd refasten it to the housing of the cutaway pillow.

which would provide the same loop to get snagged by the nasty handle

Which is why i said

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but which in this case probably would not have affected the outcome.

How would you deal with an installed RSL that you'd have to disconnect?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[piisfish 135]

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How would you deal with an installed RSL that you'd have to disconnect?

I'd do the same as you... which wouldn't solve the problem...
or get a rigger removal... (which is not the quick/cheap fix of connecting elsewhere)
my preferred solution is to not have one, at all, and this is a personnal choice, which is educated and related to the disciplines I usually do.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[riggerrob 558]

After disconnecting the RSL - from the riser - stuff the Swedish snap shackle under the mud-flap.

[FreeflyIndian 0]

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.... and was always taught to make darn sure that the door was secure up top and not trying to come back down on you...

How do you make sure the door of a Cessna is secure up top? Whenever I've had the door hit me was when I was out the door - I'm guessing caused by the drop in pressure caused when you block the air flow underneath the door as you climb out. So you do you make sure the door is secure up top before you climb out and how would you secure it?

[riggerrob 558]

Blaming the RSL is irrelevant.
I remember a nasty lawsuit that started with a guy snagging the reserve ripcord housing - of a 1970s-vintage Racer - on a protruding door handle.

Every DZ's should strive to eliminate snag hazards.

Individual jumpers should refuse to jump airplanes with snag hazards.Tell the DZO what scares you and take your money elsewhere.

POPS learned these lessons - back in the 1970s.

Why are we risking lives re-learning old lessons??????

[kingbunky 3]

all of the cessnas (5-6 different ones) i've jumped had a latch built in. the door opens, the latch engages. there was a handle of some sort inside the plane that the pilot could easily reach, beside the vent thingie at the top front of the doorframe to release it. if you noticed the door floating, a quick push upwards would engage the latch.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[FreeflyIndian 0]

ah. thanks

[buff 0]

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all of the cessnas (5-6 different ones) i've jumped had a latch built in. the door opens, the latch engages. there was a handle of some sort inside the plane that the pilot could easily reach, beside the vent thingie at the top front of the doorframe to release it. if you noticed the door floating, a quick push upwards would engage the latch.

That's what our C182 has along with a no-protruding latch handle. The regular door handle is removed and replaced with a T-handle that is inset into a recess. There is nothing to snag with the door is up and latched agains the wing and a container is up against it.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[jacketsdb23 45]

I understand you had an experience that affects your decision on this...but when I had my voodoo I shot tandem videos all the time with my "standard" RSL connected. I had this debate with myself and others and made my decision. I never wore the video helmet under any other circumstances (only Tandem video's).

Since then my new to me rig is not equipped with an RSL. So I don't have to make the choice. ( I choose not to get it equipped).

anyway...my 2 cents.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[erdnarob 1]

Snaging a part of your equipment with airplane protruding part should be a constant concern for any skydiver using any airplane. Few years ago as reported in SKYDIVING MAGAZINE a skydiver in Germany got the end swaged ball of his reserve ripcord cable caught in a crack of the fuselage when being a rear floater on a side door airplane. Ready, set go and came the trouble with an instant reserve deploying in the tail of the aircraft. Fortunately, the reserve cleared from the tail and the skydiver landed with a minimum of problem. But potentially that kind of problem is probably the worst since the skydiver and all aircraft passengers are at risk if by any chance the reserve deploys when still caught by the a/c tail.

I personnally have a Vector III with a Skyhook and I can tell that there is no protruding part of the RSL if well inspected. But I see that (and this for any rig with a RSL) the RSL riser at the top of the shoulder (just above the 3 rings) can be caught by a Cessna door handle and if pulled, then the RSL can pull the reserve pin. On the Vector III with Skyhook, there is a little pocket near the RSL shackle and sometimes at the pre jump inspection you have to make sure the RSL is well lodged in this pocket. What I have seen recently is a not well routed release yellow cable housing near the 3 rings. it was making a loop above the jumper's shoulder. I asked the jumper to change it the other side and under the reserve risers like it meant to be mounted by the manufacturer.

I have now no more visible reserve cable and ball since I have a Spectra rip cord (see my thread about SPECTRA RIP CORD on this forum including pictures). For those who have a metal cable, I would suggest them to range the visible part of the cable/ball in the reserve handle pocket.

Modified Murphy's law : If it can snag it it will

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[popsjumper 2]

During a discussion of this incident recently, the point was made that , intentionally or not, the jumper did a fantastic job of fighting it all the way up to the time it got twisted all the way down to the risers....at which point the main had a very good chance (relatively speaking) of opening cleanly and not getting entangled in the solid barber pole.

Had he dumped the main before then, with the reserve still somewhat inflated and the lines separated, the chance of entanglement would have been much higher.

How many of us would have dumped the main sooner than he did?

Did you note his peek at the ground for an apparent altitude check?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[brettski74 0]

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In my understanding (which is admittedly limited on the subject) disconnecting the rsl would only help if the free end were able to slip through whatever snagged it in the first place.

If the nylon itself was snagged then no, but looking at the original thread, it appears the door latch slid under the rsl, so disconnecting it likely would have prevented the incident.

Disconnecting the RSL would not have made much difference, regardless of what was snagged. The RSL lanyard is secured in place by velcro, which would be almost impossible to remove using a pull from the back of the container. The lanyard runs underneath the reserve riser covers, through the yoke and past the cutaway cable. There are plenty of things to get in the way and at best, retard the passing of the snap shackle through to the back. Even if it did, the snap shackle itself could get caught on the snag point on the aircraft door. On the other hand, the opposite end of the line is held in place by the reserve pin, which is designed to be easy to remove when pulled from that direction. When you pull on a line, the end which moves is the one which requires the least force. This snag incident would have pulled the reserve pin long before anything at the other end of the line even came close to moving.

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As would a rig that keeps the rsl under a flap

The RSL is kept underneath the reserve pin cover flap. Whatever snagged the line had to slide in under the reserve pin cover flap, snag the line and the pull it out.

[Cambalectri 0]

I also have Victor III ( an older model, 1996) with a Skyhook retrofit, however, without the small pocket, near the RSL shackle, to secure the RSL.
For older Vector III, I believe , a small pocket can not be provided. Therefore, in my case, the extra length of the RSL is lodged below the 3-rings, under the webbing cover...
Once, and only once, I discovered the extra length of the RSL dislodged, floating around !
I will have to find a way to make this more secure.

[Jkralovec 0]

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-am I the only one who thinks that RSL + video is not a good idea ?
-am I the only one who thinks that 3/4 of the jumpers 1st reflex would have been to cutaway ?

That thought just made me physically sick :(