First one down sets the pattern

[Broke 0]

I don't like it when that is the rule of the day at a DZ.

I would rather choose a landing direction in the plane before we climb to altitude then having the confusion of not having a set landing pattern. I would much rather land cross wind or down wind than trying to figure the pattern out on the fly. After all isn't it better if we have everyone flying the same pattern then several different ones until the firs person lands?

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[NeedToJump 0]

As I see it, this is a backup rule to setting the landing pattern and direction on the ground. What happens when the first person down lands in a different direction than the agreed upon landing direction? Should the second person down follow the first person or follow the original direction?

I think you should have a plan for what you are going to do before boarding the airplane, but be ready for anything. If the first person down lands in a different direction, everyone should follow that new direction and then talk to the first person when you're on the ground. There are cases where the first person down could announce before getting on the load "I'm going to be first down and I'm going to land downwind so don't follow me." In that case, follow the second person down.

It's better for everyone to land in the same wrong direction, then have a few people try to land in the right direction and fly a conflicting pattern.

Winds shift and people make mistakes.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[JohnRich 4]

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It's better for everyone to land in the same wrong direction, then have a few people try to land in the right direction and fly a conflicting pattern.

Everyone landing in the wrong direction is likely to get someone hurt.

But instead of others landing in the correct direction and causing conflicts, they can instead go land in an alternate area with their own pattern.

That's what I do. If I don't like what the 1st person down does, I'll go land outside the main landing area and do my own thing.

[peek 20]

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But instead of others landing in the correct direction and causing conflicts, they can instead go land in an alternate area with their own pattern.

This seems like a very reasonable thing to do.

Does anyone know of a drop zone where this is discouraged or where there is no suitable alternate landing area?

[NeedToJump 0]

I agree with what you said completely. If you land in the main landing area, follow the first person down. If you don't like their pattern / direction, land somewhere else.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[pilotdave 0]

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Does anyone know of a drop zone where this is discouraged or where there is no suitable alternate landing area?

Alternate landing area? You mean the 8-foot-tall corn? Tight back yards? Trees? Grass next to the runway with helicopters practicing hovering? Yeah, we have alternate landing areas...
Dave

[Andy9o8 0]

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Does anyone know of a drop zone where this is discouraged or where there is no suitable alternate landing area?

The Ranch and Crosskeys come to mind as not having much in the way of open outs. CPI can be a challenge if you have to go out. The vineyards at Lodi are not very welcoming, at all.

[virgin-burner 1]

i like that rule. guess, the winds never change in your neck of the woods. if you cant make up for a plan b while in air, maybe skydiving is not for you..

setting a pattern pre-flight only seems reasonable on nil-wind days, or such, with light winds and lots of changing of them. thus to avoid people chasing the windsock, or if you have a pattern pre-set that only allows landing north-south/east-west or something..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[popsjumper 2]

I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised. It's sad that some DZs don't have to smarts to come up with anything better.

It shows a complete disregard for landing safety. Every jump is a guessing game.

If you're not smart enough to understand the shortcomings of that rule and have to ask, let me know where you jump, please.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

Such a wuss. We have plenty of room and plenty of outs compared to some other down hill barb wire fenced LZ's that come to mind.

Personally I really don't like "first one down sets the pattern".

I want to know which way to expect the rest of the load to be setting up to land. If the wind is light and variable enough then there is no reason to be wind sock chasing, just pick the direction in the field and stick to it period.

I know that this practices causes new jumpers to spend a long long time trying to look down in order to spot the first person down. It isn't easy for the less experinced, and there are better things they can be doing during their canopy ride then spending the entire time squinting down at the ground.

If the wind is doing frequent 180* shifts on a strong wind day I don't want to be jumping. All the other knuckle heads can then try their luck and let the first guy down chase the gusts.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rasmack 0]

Well... I don't like it either but it i better than what I have tried at other DZs:

Briefing: "We will be using right hand pattern today"
Me under canopy: "Why are those guys entering a left hand pattern?!?"

If noone can figure out how to follow the briefed pattern I prefer by far to not have to decide on the spot whether to follow it or follow the first idiot down.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[virgin-burner 1]

reading through this replies, i'm more and more sure, i'll stick to jumping on my own grounds..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[pchapman 261]

I don't like the first one down rule either. If using something like that, I'd prefer a more vague "do what others are doing if it is reasonable".

Then people aren't fixated on the actions of one person.

I figure it is better to have a plan ahead of time what the landing direction will be if the wind is almost zero, with "do what others are doing" taking over if a trend becomes evident among the first ones down.

It's a good reason for all jumpers to try to become comfortable with landing in light cross- or down-wind conditions, as that will sometimes be necessary in order to play nicely with the other kids.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised. It's sad that some DZs don't have to smarts to come up with anything better.

It shows a complete disregard for landing safety. Every jump is a guessing game.

I agree completely. In actual practice, it just turns everything into a no-rules cluster-fuck.

[Feeblemind 1]

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I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised. It's sad that some DZs don't have to smarts to come up with anything better.

It shows a complete disregard for landing safety. Every jump is a guessing game.

I agree completely. In actual practice, it just turns everything into a no-rules cluster-fuck.

So I must ask what is a better alternative?? In the plane the landing pattern is set, everyone jumps, the winds have changed and you all land down wind?! That sounds pretty stupid to me for obvious reasons. Most DZ's have a preferred landing direction in light/variable winds (ours is south), but you still need to follow the first person down to prevent folks from setting opposing patterns. Yes, I will agree some moron will occasionally a down wind pattern, but if you can't land your canopy in a slight down wind you might want to rethink your canopy choice. In my meger 4 years in sport down wind landings have most often occured in low winds, >5mph. Personally I was taught to deal with down wind landings for the "what if?" situations that have and do occur in ever DZ I have jumped at..

I would rather land in a slight down wind (then discussing it with the person that set the pattern) rather than colliding with some idiot that didn't like the direction and did what he/she thought was a better option.

If you don't like the rules at a DZ find somewhere else to jump, if stupid people continue to make stupid decisions the incident forums will continue to receive post after post.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[jacketsdb23 45]

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If you're not smart enough to understand the shortcomings of that rule and have to ask, let me know where you jump, please.

I think every method has shortcomings. If we talk about a landing pattern before getting in the plane 90% of the time its adhered to. But what if the winds change? Now - MOST of the time, the first person down is an experienced jumper who lands sees this change and lands accordingly. Now do people land in the direction set or the one talked about on the plane? What if the experienced jumper misses the wind change and lands as planned...and then people start chasing the windsock? I don't know the answer. But I think the first person down ought to be smart enough to set the best pattern possible.

I'd rather have 14 people landing in the same wrong direction then 14 different patterns set. This is why I feel its important to know how to land your canopy crosswind and downwind. If people can't do that, they need to get a new canopy.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[jsaxton 0]

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Does anyone know of a drop zone where this is discouraged or where there is no suitable alternate landing area?

The vineyards at Lodi are not very welcoming, at all.

There is a hugh field right next to the grass. In addition there is the student landing area and another field to the north, those are the best outs. If you are on the wrong side of the freeway there are a couple of open fields there as well. As for the vinyards, well you can land in the grapes if you really want, but personally I would rather land on the access roads that are all over the place ;)

[billvon 2,400]

> I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised.

It's pretty important at most drop zones.

The "check the winds before takeoff and land in that direction" doesn't work at many DZ's (like Perris) where winds change frequently. So you have a few options:

1) Decide based on the nearest flag and land that way.

2) Decide based on the tetrahedron (or other large indicator) and land that way.

Problem with both of those is that winds change, and if half the load lands and the winds change, changing your landing direction is very, very dangerous; you'll have people landing into each other.

So we have the first person down set the landing direction. During bigways we will often have someone hold the tetrahedron in one direction so it can't move. Then the rule becomes first person down set the landing direction, and the first person lands in the direction of the tetrahedron.

The bottom line is that it's a lot more important to avoid head-on collisions than it is to land directly into the wind, which is why everyone has to land in the same direction (in a given landing area, at least.) Most DZ's allow people to land whatever direction they like away from the main area.

>If you're not smart enough to understand the shortcomings of that
>rule and have to ask, let me know where you jump, please.

It definitely has some shortcomings; it's just better than the alternatives. I jump at Perris, Elsinore and Otay by the way.

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm just saying, the vineyards stick in my mind as particularly nasty places, what with the wires and metal poles.

[rehmwa 2]

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> I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised.

It's pretty important at most drop zones.

Although I agree it's a pretty stupid rule (first one down frequently is flying a spec and always lands downwind, etc......), I just want each DZ to have a rule and to enforce whatever rule they pick.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[chuckakers 370]

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But instead of others landing in the correct direction and causing conflicts, they can instead go land in an alternate area with their own pattern.

This seems like a very reasonable thing to do.

Well, John is a reasonable guy.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[jacketsdb23 45]

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(first one down frequently is flying a spec and always lands downwind, etc......).

Well we need to start changing that as well. Because that is a big problem.

Downwind landings on purpose on a load mixed with experience should not be tolerated. If you have your own dedicated pass, do whatever you want. But with 14+ canopies in the air, have some common sense (not directed at you rehmwa)

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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It's pretty important at most drop zones.

I think it's pretty important at SOME dropzones. Perris, Eloy, and Mile-Hi being the ones come to mind with their often shifting conditions.

That said, in my experience, the majority of dropzones don't encounter these unusual wind shifts on a regular basis and would be better suited having a 'fixed' direction. While alternate areas are desirable, I believe that they have to have fixed direction too - otherwise it becomes a total mess when people are landing in different directions, in different areas, on the fly so to speak.

Ideally, if you have 2 primary areas one in a North-South configuration (direction picked on take off) and the other in an East-West configuration (direction also picked prior to take off), you'll most likey face a crosswind/slight downwind at worst.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[jdfreefly 1]

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The bottom line is that it's a lot more important to avoid head-on collisions

It's not the 180 deg opposing patterns that worry me, it's the 90 deg ones. All of the close calls I've had have been the result of two distinct patterns being flown that were 90 degrees off of each other.

This is why I think when you combine a north-south only rule with a first one down rule, you eliminate most of the really scary things that can happen.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[ficus 0]

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Although I agree it's a pretty stupid rule (first one down frequently is flying a spec and always lands downwind, etc......)

This has not been my experience.

Personally, when I am first down, when I decide what to set up for, I will consider who else is on the load. If our normal light and variable landing direction is a 4-5mph downwind, and there are a few 50 jump wonders on the load, I'll set it up the opposite way. In the same conditions, if the load was tandems and camera flyers on swoop canopies....surf's up and I'm leaving my video camera on.

Anybody who is "flying a spec" should be able to make this kind of call with no problem whatsoever. If they are scrubbing in low-timers left and right on downwinders, someone talks to them about it. (Or maybe the low-timers realize it's not that big of a deal to do a light downwinder!)

This kind of stuff seems like basic common sense to me when the "first one down" rule is in effect. But then..."common sense isn't."