why skydiving is not a lucrative sport??

[Remster 24]

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Those inflammatory remarks are your own

Try to keep it civil guys.

Remster

[plowdirt 0]

mUff mUff

[gjhdiver 0]

Let's narrow it down quickly.

1. Person makes skydive.

2. Person is overcome by evangelical zeal.

(Smart DZO will get said person to do odd jobs for free until this wears off usually).

3. Person becomes crashing bore to all non jumping friends.

4. Person lies awake at night thinking of how to convert the rest of the world to their new belief via marketing schemes. They dream of a world full of happy cheap turbine DZs and thousands of jumpers.

5. Person becomes crashing bore to skydiving friends.

6. Person realises world in general doesn't give a flying fuck about skydiving, other than to read accident reports for vicarious thrills.

7. Person wises up and just enjoys jumping, or gets disillusioned and gives up, making room for next batch of missionaries.

8 Go to 1.

Any questions ?

[PhreeZone 15]

Sums it up for me!

I was #2 even as late as 2003 then jumped to 6& 7 shortly after. Nice summery

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Douva 0]

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Let's narrow it down quickly.

1. Person makes skydive.

2. Person is overcome by evangelical zeal.

(Smart DZO will get said person to do odd jobs for free until this wears off usually).

3. Person becomes crashing bore to all non jumping friends.

4. Person lies awake at night thinking of how to convert the rest of the world to their new belief via marketing schemes. They dream of a world full of happy cheap turbine DZs and thousands of jumpers.

5. Person becomes crashing bore to skydiving friends.

6. Person realises world in general doesn't give a flying fuck about skydiving, other than to read accident reports for vicarious thrills.

7. Person wises up and just enjoys jumping, or gets disillusioned and gives up, making room for next batch of missionaries.

8 Go to 1.

Any questions ?

You're still looking at this a recruiting tool. I don't think that should be the goal at all. I think the goal should be positive exposure for the sport. Positive exposure becomes a huge asset when dealing with airport access issues, fighting federal regulation, and any other situation where we need public support. The goal should be to have skydivers and skydiving viewed by the general public as less ridiculous, less suicidal, and less threatening. Of course some of the resistance to this proposal may stem from people who "get off" on the "psycho" image associated with skydiving.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[flyangel2 2]

Just because I enjoy watching the ice skaters on T.V, or the race car drivers, doesn't mean I'm going to go out and do those events.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[plowdirt 0]

When did you become a crashing bore to fellow skydivers?

I see this attitude, but I also see other DZ's and DZO with what looks like to me what i'm talking about. They have boogies,fly there planes thousands of miles/ well hundreds, to keep this sport alive.
I'm not so glad to see a handfull of jumpers who have been around for some time and who have so many jumps look at this in such a manner.

We can agree to disagree
someone lock this thread already

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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When did you become a crashing bore to fellow skydivers?

I see this attitude, but I also see other DZ's and DZO with what looks like to me what i'm talking about. They have boogies,fly there planes thousands of miles/ well hundreds, to keep this sport alive.
I'm not so glad to see a handfull of jumpers who have been around for some time and who have so many jumps look at this in such a manner.

We can agree to disagree
someone lock this thread already

If you stay in the sport you will come to the same conclusions. We all do eventually. You might be surprised what Gareth has done for skydiving over the years - there is a reason why he has that opinion.

Think of it this way - as a kid you used to get mad at your parents for not thinking you knew what was best for yourself. Then you got older and wiser, and realized they knew what they were talking about and now you say the same thing to kids...maybe even your own. That's how this sport works.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Douva 0]

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Just because I enjoy watching the ice skaters on T.V, or the race car drivers, doesn't mean I'm going to go out and do those events.

Exactly my point. Thank you.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[flyangel2 2]

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They have boogies,fly there planes thousands of miles/ well hundreds, to keep this sport alive.

Oh, and they don't make a cent off of that.


Let's see, Larry Hill charters his aircraft to all kinds of boogies during the summer. Why could that be? Cause it's too hot to jump in Eloy in the summer. So, send the planes where they are going to make some money.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[PhreeZone 15]

Why do you think that there are no Twin Otters parked on our runways up here just waiting for the thaw out in March/April?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[flyangel2 2]

Sorry, Eric, I thought that the Nelson kids just loved the sport so much that they let other DZs use their Otters

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[happythoughts 0]

Money. Where will the money come from? That is the test.

In Tampa, the county govt spent $300 million to build a stadium for the Bucs. They play in town 15 times a year. The stadium isn't used for any other events, like concerts.

50,000 fans show up and buy parking permits, beer, food, Bucs logo products. Season tickets are from $500 to $1300 per seat and they are not available. There is a waiting list, but you may not be able to get on it.

At most DZs, 100 locals watch because it is free.

The games are televised. Advertising revenues make it worth it.

Football games on tv are social events, not sporting events. Some people watch the games and they don't even like it. "Come over to my house and we'll watch The Game and have a few beers."

Car and beer advertisers buy ad time. Cars and beer are not related to playing the game.

People like football for whatever reason. I watched skysurfing on ESPN with my son in a bar. We knew 9 out of the 12 people competing and we got bored. Other people in the bar were bored with it almost immediately.

Lack of an audience killed skydiving on tv. Lack of audience means no advertisers. No advertisers means no money.

[Ron 7]

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Let's narrow it down quickly.

1. Person makes skydive.

2. Person is overcome by evangelical zeal.

(Smart DZO will get said person to do odd jobs for free until this wears off usually).

3. Person becomes crashing bore to all non jumping friends.

4. Person lies awake at night thinking of how to convert the rest of the world to their new belief via marketing schemes. They dream of a world full of happy cheap turbine DZs and thousands of jumpers.

5. Person becomes crashing bore to skydiving friends.

6. Person realises world in general doesn't give a flying fuck about skydiving, other than to read accident reports for vicarious thrills.

7. Person wises up and just enjoys jumping, or gets disillusioned and gives up, making room for next batch of missionaries.

8 Go to 1.

Any questions ?

Yes, how did you get so smart?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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You keep harping on this "relate to" angle, but the truth is, in the year 2005, most people relate to a given sport because they've been exposed to it on TV. I've never seen anyone do a triple lutz, in person

Hell, I don't know what a tripple lutz is...But if it is Ice Skating...Have you ever Ice skated or roller skated? If so, then you have a frame of reference to how hard a "tripple Lutz" might be. A person who has never solo freefell has no idea how hard a 4 way is.

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The general public is not as dumb as you seem to think they are

The general public is not as interested as you think they are. Take a tape of skydiving into a bar. It will not stay on the whole tape, unless it is a dead bar. I have TRIED this. I have gone to bars and helped in a Tandem Give aways...Most times the people never show for the jump.

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and skydiving is not nearly as hard to follow as you seem to think it is

Really? Was not there just a recent freefly comp where the rules were made up as they go? Do you know the difference between an NJ, Incomplete Seperation, Incidental Contact in RW?

Hell I don't understand all the RW rules and I am a judge.

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I've never snow boarded, and I've never been to a snow boarding competition. I relate to it because I've seen it on TV.

Or you could relate to it since you skysurf.

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You seem to be ignoring most of what I write and seeing only what you want to read

You seem to be ignoring anyone that does not fit into your view of the world.
Might I add that many of these folks have been in the sport twice as long as you and have many more jumps. A small hint...When Gareth talks...I tend to listen. I even listen to BillV when its not about politics. CBS has raised some very good points. You just keep saying the same thing over and over like we didn't understand it the first time. We got it...It will not work. It has been tried...Ever heard of Arch Deal?

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You're not very clear about how I'm being narrow minded; perhaps you could make your case rather than just impugn my judgment.

You are being narrow minded by simply saying the same thing over and over and assuming we just don't see the beauty of your plan...We see your plan. We have seen your plan and others fail before. We understand your plan....We don't think it has a snowballs chance. Hell, I think we all wish you the best of luck, but ignoring the advice from people who have been there and done that is just setting yourself up to fail the ways they have on your own.

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Finally, I don't recall calling anybody "an asshole" or "stupid." Those inflammatory remarks are your own

You didn't use those words but you said those ideals...Here are some of them:

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To immediately discount skydiving's potential shows the same shortsightedness demonstrated by the many people throughout history who have said "It can't be done," only to be proven wrong.

So if we have tried and lost before, and don't buy into your new shiney plan we are all "short sighted"?

Notice the trend here. You and another guy on here both think skydiving could be the best thing since sliced bread.

You have 6 years in the sport and 805 jumps.
He has 5 years in the sport and 800 jumps.

Some of the people who don't think its a good idea:
26 years in the sport 3300 jumps
13 years in the sport 3800 jumps
11 years in the sport 3300 jumps
18 years in the sport 7800 jumps.

I think these folks have seen plans like this from stary-eyed folks before.

Reference this great thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1442524#1442524

You are in #4. I am personally in #7.

CBS summed it up really nicely:

Quote

Think of it this way - as a kid you used to get mad at your parents for not thinking you knew what was best for yourself. Then you got older and wiser, and realized they knew what they were talking about and now you say the same thing to kids...maybe even your own. That's how this sport works.

But in your opinion we are just "short sighted".

In this next case you spoke about something and were wrong:

Quote

The teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN

Then you go back to insulting people:

Quote

I don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture....There is something to be said for working together and being a team player.

So if a person wants to get money for his hard work he is a "primma donna"?

Anyone that does not buy into your idea needs to "wake up"?

And if we don't march to your drum we are labled as "not a team player"?

You are the only one with the right answers?

You say you are not insulting people...What is this? :

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you need to get your head out of your wallet

And then there is this:

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Of course some of the resistance to this proposal may stem from people who "get off" on the "psycho" image associated with skydiving

This is called Ad Hominem or attacking the person. You attack the "image" of the "type" of peorson who opposed your idea instead of the argument.

We are saying your idea while nice will not workk based on the idea. We have given valid reasons why, and many here have been involved in ideas like this before.

You choose to ignore us and attack us.

I'm done with this.

I really wish you luck.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[gjhdiver 0]

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When did you become a crashing bore to fellow skydivers?

Probably as soon as I opened my mouth to organize my first skydive, if not before.

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I'm not so glad to see a handfull of jumpers who have been around for some time and who have so many jumps look at this in such a manner.

Well, there is a reason for this. I've seen a lot of this come and go over the years, and as far as I'm concerned, the sport is growing at the rate that it can support itself. We really don't want it to be bigger than it is right now. It's kind of like the army in a way. They really would like more recruits, but they resist the idea of a draft, because they really are conerned with quality, not quantity. I don't believe trying to flood the sport with new recruits will do any of us any good. At the very least, the sport doesn't have the infrastructure to support it.

Right now, you're paying a couple of bucks more to jump at a place like Eloy than I was to jump out of a Cessna with no door in 1986. We're in a golden age right now. Let's not fuck it up by being greedy. Let the sport develop as it is, and in 20 years, we'll still have one.

[gjhdiver 0]

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I think the goal should be positive exposure for the sport. Positive exposure becomes a huge asset when dealing with airport access issues, fighting federal regulation, and any other situation where we need public support. The goal should be to have skydivers and skydiving viewed by the general public as less ridiculous, less suicidal, and less threatening.

Now this seems reasonable at first glance, but it's flawed in it's execution, and I say that from the experience of managing one of the world's largest drop zones.

I'll agree that good relations are important as far as a drop zones survival is concerned, but that is almost without exception accomplished on a local level. No matter how good a DZ is, it cannot survive without the goodwill of the local community. We put a huge amount of effort in at Z Hills to restore the image of skydiving in the local community, right down to supporting candidates for the local elections, and for the airport management board. We eventually got the local public on our side after they had become severely jaded with the whole idea of skydiving after years of infighting between the two dop zones that were on the airport at the time. Our survival as a drop zone depended almost entirely on that local effort at one point. If drop zones are poing to expend that kind of public relations effort, you'll normally see it going into the local community. If it's done right, things like access issues and the like go away, and you'll build up a reserve of goodwill for the occaisions when you might really need it.

As for rehabilitating skydiving's image to the general public at large, it really isn't worth the effort. It's in the nature of the beast to thought of that way, and in the final analysis, the public have it more or less right. It is a thoroughly insane way to spend your leisure time if you think about it. Part of the trick is to give customers a safe and exciting experience, whilst paying lip service to the extreme image that it has for them. It's how drop zones attract tandems. We wouldn't get half the business if we managed to convince the public that the whole activity was as wholesome as bike riding or hiking.

[Douva 0]

Quote

Quote

You keep harping on this "relate to" angle, but the truth is, in the year 2005, most people relate to a given sport because they've been exposed to it on TV. I've never seen anyone do a triple lutz, in person

Hell, I don't know what a tripple lutz is...But if it is Ice Skating...Have you ever Ice skated or roller skated? If so, then you have a frame of reference to how hard a "tripple Lutz" might be. A person who has never solo freefell has no idea how hard a 4 way is.

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The general public is not as dumb as you seem to think they are

The general public is not as interested as you think they are. Take a tape of skydiving into a bar. It will not stay on the whole tape, unless it is a dead bar. I have TRIED this. I have gone to bars and helped in a Tandem Give aways...Most times the people never show for the jump.

As I stated in another post, there is a big difference between watching skydiving highlight videos and watching a well crafted skydiving competition.

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and skydiving is not nearly as hard to follow as you seem to think it is

Really? Was not there just a recent freefly comp where the rules were made up as they go? Do you know the difference between an NJ, Incomplete Seperation, Incidental Contact in RW?

Hell I don't understand all the RW rules and I am a judge.

There are still aspects of football that I don't understand, but I enjoy watching it.

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I've never snow boarded, and I've never been to a snow boarding competition. I relate to it because I've seen it on TV.

Or you could relate to it since you skysurf.

Uh, no. Aside from a similarly sized board, the two sports have nothing in common. And I was watching snow boarding for years before I started skysurfing. I was also watching skysurfing years before I started skysurfing.

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You seem to be ignoring most of what I write and seeing only what you want to read

You seem to be ignoring anyone that does not fit into your view of the world.
Might I add that many of these folks have been in the sport twice as long as you and have many more jumps. A small hint...When Gareth talks...I tend to listen. I even listen to BillV when its not about politics. CBS has raised some very good points. You just keep saying the same thing over and over like we didn't understand it the first time. We got it...It will not work. It has been tried...Ever heard of Arch Deal?

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You're not very clear about how I'm being narrow minded; perhaps you could make your case rather than just impugn my judgment.

You are being narrow minded by simply saying the same thing over and over and assuming we just don't see the beauty of your plan...We see your plan. We have seen your plan and others fail before. We understand your plan....We don't think it has a snowballs chance. Hell, I think we all wish you the best of luck, but ignoring the advice from people who have been there and done that is just setting yourself up to fail the ways they have on your own.

It's called emphasizing a point. If I've ignored some statement, please direct my attention to it, and I'll be sure to respond to it in-depth.

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Finally, I don't recall calling anybody "an asshole" or "stupid." Those inflammatory remarks are your own

You didn't use those words but you said those ideals...Here are some of them:

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To immediately discount skydiving's potential shows the same shortsightedness demonstrated by the many people throughout history who have said "It can't be done," only to be proven wrong.

So if we have tried and lost before, and don't buy into your new shiney plan we are all "short sighted"?

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Suggesting that somebody's views are short sighted is a long way from calling somebody an "asshole." For one thing, it's still an attack against the ideas, rather than the person.

Notice the trend here. You and another guy on here both think skydiving could be the best thing since sliced bread.

You have 6 years in the sport and 805 jumps.
He has 5 years in the sport and 800 jumps.

Some of the people who don't think its a good idea:
26 years in the sport 3300 jumps
13 years in the sport 3800 jumps
11 years in the sport 3300 jumps
18 years in the sport 7800 jumps.

I think these folks have seen plans like this from stary-eyed folks before.

Reference this great thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1442524#1442524

You are in #4. I am personally in #7.

CBS summed it up really nicely:

Quote

Think of it this way - as a kid you used to get mad at your parents for not thinking you knew what was best for yourself. Then you got older and wiser, and realized they knew what they were talking about and now you say the same thing to kids...maybe even your own. That's how this sport works.

But in your opinion we are just "short sighted".

How exactly does 20 years in the sport qualify someone as an expert on broadcasting and the media? If you like, I'm sure I can find some people with 10+ years and 1000+ jumps who agree with me, but it won't prove anything. Twenty years ago, the 20 year veterans were convinced that nobody with less than 100 jumps should be allowed to jump a ram-air canopy. Sometimes a long history with something makes it harder to see the future.

Quote

In this next case you spoke about something and were wrong:

Quote

The teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN

Then you go back to insulting people:

Quote

I don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture....There is something to be said for working together and being a team player.

So if a person wants to get money for his hard work he is a "primma donna"?

Anyone that does not buy into your idea needs to "wake up"?

And if we don't march to your drum we are labled as "not a team player"?

Quote

Yes, anyone who joins a team and then refuses to help promote that team without substantial financial compensation qualifies as a "primma donna" in my book.

You are the only one with the right answers?

How could I be so narrow minded an uninclusive? I hereby declare today "Everybody Gets to be Right Day"--There are no wrong answers.

Quote

You say you are not insulting people...What is this? :

Quote

you need to get your head out of your wallet

That's not an insult; it's a scathing remark against the uber-capitalist ideaology adopted by a small minority of skydivers.

Quote

And then there is this:

Quote

Of course some of the resistance to this proposal may stem from people who "get off" on the "psycho" image associated with skydiving

This is called Ad Hominem or attacking the person. You attack the "image" of the "type" of peorson who opposed your idea instead of the argument.

I'm suggesting that there are reasons beyond lack of merit why some people might be reluctant to see skydiving on TV. I'm not attacking anybody.

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We are saying your idea while nice will not workk based on the idea. We have given valid reasons why, and many here have been involved in ideas like this before.

You choose to ignore us and attack us.

I'm done with this.

I really wish you luck.

And I have provided valid reasons why it could work. Everybody who has been involved with efforts like this in the past (excluding the X-Games, which we have discussed in-depth), please enlighten me. I don't recall a plethora of failed televised skydiving events being mentioned in this thread, but then again, I've been "ignoring anyone that does not fit into [my] view of the world." If you disagree with me, that's fine, but grow some tougher skin--This "personal attack" witch hunt is the first real insult I've seen in this thread.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

Quote

Quote

I think the goal should be positive exposure for the sport. Positive exposure becomes a huge asset when dealing with airport access issues, fighting federal regulation, and any other situation where we need public support. The goal should be to have skydivers and skydiving viewed by the general public as less ridiculous, less suicidal, and less threatening.

Now this seems reasonable at first glance, but it's flawed in it's execution, and I say that from the experience of managing one of the world's largest drop zones.

I'll agree that good relations are important as far as a drop zones survival is concerned, but that is almost without exception accomplished on a local level. No matter how good a DZ is, it cannot survive without the goodwill of the local community. We put a huge amount of effort in at Z Hills to restore the image of skydiving in the local community, right down to supporting candidates for the local elections, and for the airport management board. We eventually got the local public on our side after they had become severely jaded with the whole idea of skydiving after years of infighting between the two dop zones that were on the airport at the time. Our survival as a drop zone depended almost entirely on that local effort at one point. If drop zones are poing to expend that kind of public relations effort, you'll normally see it going into the local community. If it's done right, things like access issues and the like go away, and you'll build up a reserve of goodwill for the occaisions when you might really need it.

I completely agree that for an individual drop zone local relations are the most significant, but I still believe that acceptance on a wider level would help assure the survival of our support.

Quote

As for rehabilitating skydiving's image to the general public at large, it really isn't worth the effort. It's in the nature of the beast to thought of that way, and in the final analysis, the public have it more or less right. It is a thoroughly insane way to spend your leisure time if you think about it. Part of the trick is to give customers a safe and exciting experience, whilst paying lip service to the extreme image that it has for them. It's how drop zones attract tandems. We wouldn't get half the business if we managed to convince the public that the whole activity was as wholesome as bike riding or hiking.

I don't think acceptance would necessarily kill the image associated with skydiving. Snowboarding and skateboarding still maintain their "bad boy" images, despite gaining nationwide acceptance in the last fifteen years.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[medusa 0]

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Here is a question for you. How much do you think the average CAMERA FLYER (not just any Joe Shome freeflyer with a camera) has invested in their camera gear? I'm not even into the stills yet and I'm up to a $2000 package on my head. After this spring it'll be at about $3500. Take a look at this thread and come back and tell me if camera flyers should just do it for free. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1435985#1435985

20 people from the discovery channel latin america went to Clewiston to try for first time Skydiving "tandem", and to do a small clip about it.
they brought camera staff and everything to document their experience, they also hired camera man Dano & Smithy to tape the jump. Dano & Smithy they give away their tapes for free just because they figured out that the clip about skydiving will help the sport to grow! they saw the big picture they didn't charge extra for putting their work on TV.

Sometimes I'm able to watch on the discovery channel a 3 min clip about skydiving film in my DZ. that small clip, I'm sure that gets people to try skydive!

I feel sorry for the different people that post or have implied the following:

"we don't want skydiving to became popular" because : longer waits for slots in the aircraft.

thats being SELFISH shame on you!

I'm sure every body that does and loves skydiving have try to get their relatives and love ones to get involve in the sport.
why I try to do it??
I will like the world to share the happiness, friends, liberty, and all the beautiful things that skydiving has brought to my life!
PLEASE DON'T BE SELFISH

Medusa

Get Killed or Die Trying!
Patent pending ATFK15456

[Ron 7]

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How exactly does 20 years in the sport qualify someone as an expert on broadcasting and the media?

It does not...But 800 jumps and 5 years does not make you an expert on the sport. And people who have been in the sport for 20 years have seen these things tried before....Remember how big "Cutaway" was? People thought a big time motion picture with stars would be the hot ticket.....Yeah, it worked great.

But you claim that they just didn't do it right.

And here you go insulting people again:

This is a smart alec comment:

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How could I be so narrow minded an uninclusive? I hereby declare today "Everybody Gets to be Right Day"--There are no wrong answers.

Here you go saying that anyone that does not agree with your vision is wrong and greedy Thats attacking the person, not the argument:

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That's not an insult; it's a scathing remark against the uber-capitalist ideaology adopted by a small minority of skydivers.

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I'm suggesting that there are reasons beyond lack of merit why some people might be reluctant to see skydiving on TV. I'm not attacking anybody.

sure you are. you are saying that anyone that does not agree with you has "other motives".

You can't accept that we are just sick of people trying to make something popular that is not.

And more insults:

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but grow some tougher skin

You just keep on trucking. I wish you luck.

But you refuse to listen and would rather preach that all that don't agree are:

Ignorant, greedy, foolish, and thin skined.

We have all been where you are, but you think you know better than all of us.

Sheesh

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 24]

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but you think you know better than all of us.

No... he just thinks he knows different... And he may. Ron, if we keep doing things the same way they have always ben done, we'd never progress (and thats not just skydiving related as you know).

Remster

[ChangoLanzao 0]

They said it couldn't be done.





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[Ron 7]

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They said it couldn't be done.

They also said that we all would never have flying cars int he year 2000...And we don't

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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They said it couldn't be done.

They also said that we all would never have flying cars int he year 2000...And we don't

Who said that? Are you sure they included the time constraint?? Or did they simply say we would NEVER have flying cars?

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