PhreeZone 15 #101 January 19, 2005 You could cut the entire Nationals into a 30 minute show and your entire audience would be lost. The 10 way speed in Cutaway was done since its incredible simple to understand. Get out, build as fast as you can, pull. I don't even understand some of the NJ's for 4 way. Like the one block that everyone bitches about now with the video angle actually causing busts if its wrong. If you want the average American to watch it on TV its got to be simple enough to rapidly understand, easy to relate to them, and entertaining. Skydiving might be entertaining to a point, but its lacking majorily in the other two. The winners for Freefly at the World meet were basically decided by rules made up on the fly there. That would NEVER go over in a TV show. Also the costs would be outragous. Stock footage should sell for about $500 a minute for TV usage. To buy just the video from the videographers could cost up to $15000 and thats assuming best case everything. Then do you really think that all the stars of your show are going to do it for free or actually pay to be in it? Nope, they are all going to want their jumps covered too. Since you never know what rounds or even if there will be any useable footage from a round so you will probally have to pay for all the slots for the entire meet to make sure you don't miss a great shot. The cost for just Nationals could be more then anyone wants to pay. Granted it could be wrote into the Nationals waiver that its also a press/model release and no one gets paid. And if you make it a requirement that the videographers have to hand over their tapes for free if they want to be judged it could be done cheap, but thats not going to last long before jumpers call out foul. You are making a lot of money off their hardwork and training and you are forcing them to give it to you for free.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #102 January 19, 2005 QuoteAlso the costs would be outragous. Stock footage should sell for about $500 a minute for TV usage. To buy just the video from the videographers could cost up to $15000 and thats assuming best case everything. Then do you really think that all the stars of your show are going to do it for free or actually pay to be in it? Nope, they are all going to want their jumps covered too. Since you never know what rounds or even if there will be any useable footage from a round so you will probally have to pay for all the slots for the entire meet to make sure you don't miss a great shot. The cost for just Nationals could be more then anyone wants to pay. Granted it could be wrote into the Nationals waiver that its also a press/model release and no one gets paid. And if you make it a requirement that the videographers have to hand over their tapes for free if they want to be judged it could be done cheap, but thats not going to last long before jumpers call out foul. You are making a lot of money off their hardwork and training and you are forcing them to give it to you for free. What the hell are you talking about? Where did you get the idea that everybody is in this to get rich? And who says USPA is going to "make a lot of money off their hard work and training?" This isn't about giving USPA a product to sell--Hell, we're still trying to convince ESPN it's worth airing; I don't think we're exactly in a position to start demanding huge sums of money. This is about getting positive exposure for the sport and the competitors. The teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN. Do you really think these teams put in a year of "hard work and training" and then don't want to be recognized for it? I don't see the PRCA rodeo contestants complaining that they have to pay entry fees even though their events are televised. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing that complaint from any contestant in any non-mainstream televised event. To look at this as simply a money making scheme is to miss the bigger picture.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 42 #103 January 19, 2005 Other than the good examples listed before, I think there are a few more good reasons why skydiving has not become popular on a network sports show: 1) Quality of video. There are some good video’s out there, but in this day of HDTV and $10,000 cameras the over-the-counter Sonys that are strapped to someone’s helmet just won’t cut it. 2) Number of cameras. How many times do you watch any sporting event and they only have 1 camera on the action. Granted you could have more than one person filming a team. But now you would end up by having more camera men in the sky or on the plane than you would have competitors. Do you really want to have all of these people out there potentially causing havoc? 3) Time. Name another spectator sport where the total action lasts for only 1 minute. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is ski jumping (and maybe surfing). And I’ve only seen that broadcast during the Olympics. It doesn’t take any thought to watch ski jumping…Oooh they jump far. I think the biggest reason is that you can’t just go out and skydive. Average Joe can’t grab up his family, spend $200 on equipment and go try it. I think skydiving at best could have a following like figure skating. I think most people look at skydiving like I look at figure skating. That looks nice but I couldn’t tell you if somebody screwed up unless they fell. I am perfectly content that skydiving is a niche sport. If there were 10 or 100 times the number of skydivers, along with the good would inevitably be the “bad” population. Those people that would come into skydiving and get hurt or killed and then they or their relatives would try to put DZs or manufacturers out of business. The more people try, sooner or later someone will win. Thank you very much American jury system… Ok, time to get off of my soap-box. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #104 January 19, 2005 Putting it on the DVD is a lot different then putting it on TV. Ask your videographer if he'll just hand all his footage over for free to anyone that asks for it. If so I'm sure Real TV would love to talk to him. And there was some complaints about the Nationals footage and how some teams wanted DVD's for free and stuff like that. Other teams fought to keep their videos for a lot of the same reasons in the thread before. More issues were at Lake Wales then Perris. ESPN buys the package deal. Thats how things work. They evaluate the material, decide if its going to work then they buy it from the production company. Professional editing is not cheap at all. And I've only seen 4 or 5 skydiving video editors that are even up to the standerds that networks pick up. None of my stuff would even be looked at for more then about 10 seconds, the edit quality is shit. I can't even GIVE my stuff to ESPN or any network to air since I'm not working with a production company. Do some research on standerd photo and video fees that are industry norm. If you try to undercut indusrty standerds be prepared for a lot of doors to slam in your face if you need help from the industry. Here is a question... how much was the pay out for the Open team at Nationals? The Advanced? What did the top freefliers earn?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #105 January 19, 2005 QuoteOther than the good examples listed before, I think there are a few more good reasons why skydiving has not become popular on a network sports show: 1) Quality of video. There are some good video’s out there, but in this day of HDTV and $10,000 cameras the over-the-counter Sonys that are strapped to someone’s helmet just won’t cut it. The footage isn't HD, but it's plenty passable for coverage of this type of non-mainstream sport. Quote 2) Number of cameras. How many times do you watch any sporting event and they only have 1 camera on the action. Granted you could have more than one person filming a team. But now you would end up by having more camera men in the sky or on the plane than you would have competitors. Do you really want to have all of these people out there potentially causing havoc? Again, for non-mainstream sports (which is what we're talking about), it happens all the time. Quote 3) Time. Name another spectator sport where the total action lasts for only 1 minute. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is ski jumping (and maybe surfing). And I’ve only seen that broadcast during the Olympics. It doesn’t take any thought to watch ski jumping…Oooh they jump far. Water-skiing--I watched a solid hour of it on ESPN 2 today. QuoteI don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #106 January 19, 2005 Working time for 4 way is 35 seconds. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #107 January 19, 2005 I'm going to ignore the rest of your rant and just reply to this statement: QuoteDo some research on standerd photo and video fees that are industry norm. www.douvafilms.com QuoteIf you try to undercut indusrty standerds be prepared for a lot of doors to slam in your face if you need help from the industry. I bet we'd manage.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #108 January 19, 2005 QuoteWater-skiing--I watched a solid hour of it on ESPN 2 today. But you used to Water ski so you already have a built in interest Wakeboarding on TV has no interest to me. Tried it and failed misserable. It doe'nt connect with me at all. Same with Bull riding.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CygnusX-1 42 #109 January 19, 2005 QuoteAgain, for non-mainstream sports (which is what we're talking about), it happens all the time. Sorry, with a subject line of "why skydiving is not a lucrative sport?" I assumed we were talking about mainstream coverage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #110 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteWater-skiing--I watched a solid hour of it on ESPN 2 today. But you used to Water ski so you already have a built in interest Wakeboarding on TV has no interest to me. Tried it and failed misserable. It doe'nt connect with me at all. Same with Bull riding. Yes, but the reason I skysurf today is because I used to enjoy watching skysurfing on ESPN years before I was even a skydiver.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #111 January 19, 2005 What should the min rate be for a photo in Parachutist based on industry norms? Photographers are not making NEAR 1/4 industry rate in Parachutist. The Cover shot photo pays less then what a 1/4 photo inside something like Rock and Ice pays. QuoteI bet we'd manage. Wish you the best of luck on it! Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #112 January 19, 2005 >I think it would be great if skydivers had there own TV channel. That's old thinking! Buying a TV channel (or space on one) is like buying stock in a film-camera company; they are on the way out. If you want to set up a just-for-skydivers site, with funky BASE jumps, freeflyers doing stuff whuffos won't get, people talking trash etc then set up a high bandwidth Torrent and streaming site and stream that stuff out to people. Put ads in the beginning to cover your costs. Very soon, watching a Torrent will be little different than watching a TiVO-recorded show, and web-based networks are infinitely cheaper and more flexible. Within ten years most people will be getting their video from the net. Within twenty years the idea of fixed-time one-way programming will go the way of black and white TV's. Of course if you just "want to be on TV" then that doesn't work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #113 January 19, 2005 QuoteNo, I wasn't proven wrong you just don't like the source of the documented numbers. You seem to ignore other input that does not fit into your mindset. QuoteAlmost everyone I know who skydives was a climber, dirt bike rider, pilot, bull rider or scuba diver before they found out how much fun and less dangerous skydiving was. Most sold there other sport gear to get into skydiving. I myself would have gotten into auto racing if didn't do research about skydiving first. 2 points: 1. I know many more folks that started those other sports AFTER they started skydiving. For example me. I learned to fly after I started skydiving and started SCUBA, rock climbing...ect all AFTER skydiving. We are all going after the same base of people, so there is going to be cross sports. 2. Skydiving is not safe. It will never be safe. You will never convince the majority of the population that jumping from an aircraft in flight, falling 2 miles at 120 MPH at teh groung and saving yourself with some nylon packed into a bag is safe. And if you think it is safe and are telling people it is safe you are wrong and lying to them. As for Skydiving becoming mainstream....It will never happen. People can't relate to it, so they are not interested in it. One only has to look at the retention rates. If skydiving was for everyone we would have more students than Tandem passengers. We would have many more jumpers than we have now if just 1% of the Tandems came back...They don't. For most people skydiving is a crazy stunt they did once. As for skydivning on TV. Hell I get bored with watching skydiving. Back when I thought like you I could not get anyone to watch skydiving for more than 10 mins. They didn't understand, and they could not relate. NASCAR they can relate to. Most people drive. It is easy to imagine yourself at the stop light as Dale Jr. You have a right foot and a gas peddle. Football is easy to imagine...How many kids have imagined themselves as a start QB, or a start hitter in Baseball? They can't do that with skydiving since they have no clue what it is like to do it. As for another coment you made...Back in skydivings hayday...News flash, you are standing in it. It was not 20 years ago. It is right now. There are more skydivers than there have ever been. More DZ's and the performance is better than it ever was before. You have very unrealistic thoughts ion this sport. If there we more people some good would happen, but much more bad would come. The rate of accidents would stay the same, but the numbers of dead would of course be larger. Thsi would cause the FAA to look at us since we would no longer be a fringe group left to ourselves....We now would be much more on the radar. As for Airport access. Big DZ's like DeLand have issues with the city. Zhills had some major issues as well. These DZ's bring in TONS of money, but in reality it still is not much and the Cities really don't care that much. Also notice the Quincy WANTED to be rid of us. Quincy got big...Everyone thought bigger was better....That turned out not to be the case. If skydiving is so great...Why are there very few DZ's in S.FL? Why don't they have multiple Otters? Nice idea, but reality says otherwise."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #114 January 19, 2005 QuoteYes, but the reason I skysurf today is because I used to enjoy watching skysurfing on ESPN years before I was even a skydiver. OK lets use SKysurfing....It was on the X games for a few years, and was pulled. The Public really didn't get into it. And as for it being good for the sport...How many SKysurfers are there today in the US? There were only 4 at the nationals...4 total, only one class. It did not seem to help that much. QuoteThe teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN. You were not in Lake Wales last year. There was quite the stink about it. People didn't want to hand over their property to the USPA so the USPA could make money. No one seemed to mind when the Wagners were doing it....It was a labor of love for the Wagners..But the USPA wanted to turn it into a comercial business. There was quite the stink about it since others were trying to make a profit off of others work."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #115 January 19, 2005 Quote OK lets use SKysurfing....It was on the X games for a few years, and was pulled. The Public really didn't get into it. I really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it. Nobody could figure out a sporting goods tie-in. The X-Games is very expensive to produce, so without the big endorsement deals, it was hard for ESPN to stay out of the red. What I'm talking about is much simpler. Rather than putting on a lavish sports spectacular and then airing the footage, USPA should pay an editor and a couple of commentators a little money to put together broadcasts from existing skydiving competitions. Highlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. The public doesn't have to be obsessed with it, just intrigued by it. I feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. QuoteAnd as for it being good for the sport...How many SKysurfers are there today in the US? There were only 4 at the nationals...4 total, only one class. It did not seem to help that much. Actually, the X-games was what really kept skysurfing alive. Skysurfing is a fringe aspect of a fringe sport, so the numbers were never very high, but since ESPN dropped it, the numbers have declined to probably 10% or less of what they used to be. QuoteQuoteThe teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN. You were not in Lake Wales last year. There was quite the stink about it. People didn't want to hand over their property to the USPA so the USPA could make money. No one seemed to mind when the Wagners were doing it....It was a labor of love for the Wagners..But the USPA wanted to turn it into a comercial business. There was quite the stink about it since others were trying to make a profit off of others work. I don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. This isn't about making money; it's about supporting skydiving and the USPA. I'm pretty confident our USPA directors aren't using their positions as a front to get rich of the sweat of their constituents. We shouldn't always be so quick to assume the worst. There is something to be said for working together and being a team player.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #116 January 19, 2005 dude did you really start skydiving and hope to get paid? Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #117 January 19, 2005 QuoteI really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it So why would they get into it now? QuoteHighlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. I don't see these type of programs with Darts. QuoteI feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. I don't....People can understand ice skating and dart throwing. I could go throw darts in about 15 mins if I wanted to. I could be skating in less than an hour. I also have already thrown darts, and skated. I just went around my office and asked three questions to people. 1. Have you ice skated? 2. Have you thrown a dart? 3. Have you made a skydive? All said they have thrown darts, most said they have skated one skydives. When I asked them if they would like to do those things....All said they would throw darts, a few think an ice skating trip could be fun (I think I am gonna get stuck organizing one )...No one wants to skydive. We have two Tandem Masters on staff...Know how many people either of us have taken on a jump? NONE. QuoteI don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. These are PROFESSIONAL video people. They do this for a living. It is their lively hood. I object to you calling them "prima donnas". How would you feel if the work you did was taken by someone else and used to make money? I think you are missing the big picture. Most people don't want to jump, they don't care how much you love it they don't care to know. I don't have any interest in basket weaving, but I know people that LOVE it. I would not cared enough to watch it for more than 10 mins EVER. The same thing about skydiving. Hell I get bored watching skydiving. A whuffo will watch for max 10 mins. Ever notice that skydiving movies don't make it big? People don't care. You have drive, but the reality is that if this sport was for everyone then we would not lose so many students. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites plowdirt 0 #118 January 19, 2005 FA2, I would say this is not a something so badly issue anymore as much as it's become a debate. but, as you can see a few more have jumped on the load. This whole point of view has started for a reason, some of us would like to see this sport/hobbie whatever grow, with the hopes that it will bring more money to the industry,association etc. We already have the issues incedents, and if ten-K more people get into the sport and the incedents double, it's just a numbers game then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #119 January 19, 2005 Nope and as one thats seen any of the year end videos I worked on knows I do it for fun. BUT I do expect that if I work hard and actually make something that someone else is going to sell for money I should get a cut of that. I GAVE a friend of mine my freefly tube. All that I asked was if he wanted to sell it he had to give it back to me and I'd find a new home for it with someone that really wanted it. I've trained probally 10 people on how to fly Birdman suits with my second demo suit for FREE. Here is a question for you. How much do you think the average CAMERA FLYER (not just any Joe Shome freeflyer with a camera) has invested in their camera gear? I'm not even into the stills yet and I'm up to a $2000 package on my head. After this spring it'll be at about $3500. Take a look at this thread and come back and tell me if camera flyers should just do it for free. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1435985#1435985 Oh, how many tandem masters and tandem video guys do you see doing it for free? Its all about love for the sport so they should just do it for free right? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #120 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it So why whould they get into it now? QuoteHighlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. I don't see these type of programs with Darts. Yes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. QuoteQuoteI feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. I don't....People can understand ice skating and dart throwing. I could go throw darts in about 15 mins if I wanted to. I could be skating in less than an hour. I also have already thrown darts, and skated. I just went around my office and asked three questions to people. 1. Have you ice skated? 2. Have you thrown a dart? 3. Have you made a skydive? All said they have thrown darts, most said they have skated one skydives. When I asked them if they would like to do those things....All said they would throw darts, a few think an ice skating trip could be fun (I think I am gonna get stuck organizing one )...No one wants to skydive. We have two Tandem Masters on staff...Know how many people either of us have taken on a jump? NONE. People don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. QuoteQuoteI don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. These are PROFESSIONAL vidoe people. They do this for a living. It is their lively hood. I object to you calling them "prima donnas". How would you feel if the work you did was taken by someone else and used to make money? If you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. QuoteI think you are missing the big picture. Most people don't want to jump, they don't care how much you love it they don't care to know. I don't have any interest in basket weaving, but I know people that LOVE it. I would not cared enought to watch it for more than 10 mins EVER. The same thing about skydiving. Hell I get bored watching skydiving. A whuffo will watch for max 10 mins. Ever notice that skydiving movies don't make it big? People don't care. You have drive, but the reality is that if this sport was for everyone then we would not lose so many students. This isn't about talking the rest of the world into skydiving anymore than ice skating broadcasts are about talking the rest of the world into ice skating. Skydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #121 January 19, 2005 QuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #122 January 19, 2005 QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #123 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". You keep harping on this "relate to" angle, but the truth is, in the year 2005, most people relate to a given sport because they've been exposed to it on TV. I've never seen anyone do a triple lutz, in person. The general public is not as dumb as you seem to think they are, and skydiving is not nearly as hard to follow as you seem to think it is. I've never snow boarded, and I've never been to a snow boarding competition. I relate to it because I've seen it on TV. And when I watch a snowboarding competition on TV, which I do from time-to-time, I'm drawing my knowledge of snowboarding from the other snowboarding competitions I've watched. QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues? You seem to be ignoring most of what I write and seeing only what you want to read. ESPN dropped skysurfing because the X-Games are expensive to produce and they couldn't figure out the sponsorship angle, not because nobody wanted to watch it. My plan is much more cost efficient. Yes, televised skydiving failed in the X-Games, but it has never been tried in a cost effective manner. You're not very clear about how I'm being narrow minded; perhaps you could make your case rather than just impugn my judgment. Finally, I don't recall calling anybody "an asshole" or "stupid." Those inflammatory remarks are your own.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #124 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay. If the teams are paying the camera man then it's a work-for-hire, and the footage belongs to the team. I don't think having your footage used to promote the sport of skydiving is an unfair price to pay for getting to train, travel, and compete for free. Yes, my teammate is a great guy, but skysurfing camera flyers operate differently because they are considered part of the team, on par with the skysurfer they film. The camera flyer's moves are judged by the same judges who judge the skysurfer. The camera flyer on a skysurfing team isn't simply charged with documenting each round; he/she is actually required to participate. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe any of the skysurfers at Nationals paid their camera flyers.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites plowdirt 0 #125 January 19, 2005 Douva, Heel just keep going and going. agree to disagree, and in a couple of years we can all sit down and have a beer and laugh about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
PhreeZone 15 #106 January 19, 2005 Working time for 4 way is 35 seconds. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #107 January 19, 2005 I'm going to ignore the rest of your rant and just reply to this statement: QuoteDo some research on standerd photo and video fees that are industry norm. www.douvafilms.com QuoteIf you try to undercut indusrty standerds be prepared for a lot of doors to slam in your face if you need help from the industry. I bet we'd manage.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #108 January 19, 2005 QuoteWater-skiing--I watched a solid hour of it on ESPN 2 today. But you used to Water ski so you already have a built in interest Wakeboarding on TV has no interest to me. Tried it and failed misserable. It doe'nt connect with me at all. Same with Bull riding.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 42 #109 January 19, 2005 QuoteAgain, for non-mainstream sports (which is what we're talking about), it happens all the time. Sorry, with a subject line of "why skydiving is not a lucrative sport?" I assumed we were talking about mainstream coverage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #110 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteWater-skiing--I watched a solid hour of it on ESPN 2 today. But you used to Water ski so you already have a built in interest Wakeboarding on TV has no interest to me. Tried it and failed misserable. It doe'nt connect with me at all. Same with Bull riding. Yes, but the reason I skysurf today is because I used to enjoy watching skysurfing on ESPN years before I was even a skydiver.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #111 January 19, 2005 What should the min rate be for a photo in Parachutist based on industry norms? Photographers are not making NEAR 1/4 industry rate in Parachutist. The Cover shot photo pays less then what a 1/4 photo inside something like Rock and Ice pays. QuoteI bet we'd manage. Wish you the best of luck on it! Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #112 January 19, 2005 >I think it would be great if skydivers had there own TV channel. That's old thinking! Buying a TV channel (or space on one) is like buying stock in a film-camera company; they are on the way out. If you want to set up a just-for-skydivers site, with funky BASE jumps, freeflyers doing stuff whuffos won't get, people talking trash etc then set up a high bandwidth Torrent and streaming site and stream that stuff out to people. Put ads in the beginning to cover your costs. Very soon, watching a Torrent will be little different than watching a TiVO-recorded show, and web-based networks are infinitely cheaper and more flexible. Within ten years most people will be getting their video from the net. Within twenty years the idea of fixed-time one-way programming will go the way of black and white TV's. Of course if you just "want to be on TV" then that doesn't work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #113 January 19, 2005 QuoteNo, I wasn't proven wrong you just don't like the source of the documented numbers. You seem to ignore other input that does not fit into your mindset. QuoteAlmost everyone I know who skydives was a climber, dirt bike rider, pilot, bull rider or scuba diver before they found out how much fun and less dangerous skydiving was. Most sold there other sport gear to get into skydiving. I myself would have gotten into auto racing if didn't do research about skydiving first. 2 points: 1. I know many more folks that started those other sports AFTER they started skydiving. For example me. I learned to fly after I started skydiving and started SCUBA, rock climbing...ect all AFTER skydiving. We are all going after the same base of people, so there is going to be cross sports. 2. Skydiving is not safe. It will never be safe. You will never convince the majority of the population that jumping from an aircraft in flight, falling 2 miles at 120 MPH at teh groung and saving yourself with some nylon packed into a bag is safe. And if you think it is safe and are telling people it is safe you are wrong and lying to them. As for Skydiving becoming mainstream....It will never happen. People can't relate to it, so they are not interested in it. One only has to look at the retention rates. If skydiving was for everyone we would have more students than Tandem passengers. We would have many more jumpers than we have now if just 1% of the Tandems came back...They don't. For most people skydiving is a crazy stunt they did once. As for skydivning on TV. Hell I get bored with watching skydiving. Back when I thought like you I could not get anyone to watch skydiving for more than 10 mins. They didn't understand, and they could not relate. NASCAR they can relate to. Most people drive. It is easy to imagine yourself at the stop light as Dale Jr. You have a right foot and a gas peddle. Football is easy to imagine...How many kids have imagined themselves as a start QB, or a start hitter in Baseball? They can't do that with skydiving since they have no clue what it is like to do it. As for another coment you made...Back in skydivings hayday...News flash, you are standing in it. It was not 20 years ago. It is right now. There are more skydivers than there have ever been. More DZ's and the performance is better than it ever was before. You have very unrealistic thoughts ion this sport. If there we more people some good would happen, but much more bad would come. The rate of accidents would stay the same, but the numbers of dead would of course be larger. Thsi would cause the FAA to look at us since we would no longer be a fringe group left to ourselves....We now would be much more on the radar. As for Airport access. Big DZ's like DeLand have issues with the city. Zhills had some major issues as well. These DZ's bring in TONS of money, but in reality it still is not much and the Cities really don't care that much. Also notice the Quincy WANTED to be rid of us. Quincy got big...Everyone thought bigger was better....That turned out not to be the case. If skydiving is so great...Why are there very few DZ's in S.FL? Why don't they have multiple Otters? Nice idea, but reality says otherwise."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #114 January 19, 2005 QuoteYes, but the reason I skysurf today is because I used to enjoy watching skysurfing on ESPN years before I was even a skydiver. OK lets use SKysurfing....It was on the X games for a few years, and was pulled. The Public really didn't get into it. And as for it being good for the sport...How many SKysurfers are there today in the US? There were only 4 at the nationals...4 total, only one class. It did not seem to help that much. QuoteThe teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN. You were not in Lake Wales last year. There was quite the stink about it. People didn't want to hand over their property to the USPA so the USPA could make money. No one seemed to mind when the Wagners were doing it....It was a labor of love for the Wagners..But the USPA wanted to turn it into a comercial business. There was quite the stink about it since others were trying to make a profit off of others work."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #115 January 19, 2005 Quote OK lets use SKysurfing....It was on the X games for a few years, and was pulled. The Public really didn't get into it. I really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it. Nobody could figure out a sporting goods tie-in. The X-Games is very expensive to produce, so without the big endorsement deals, it was hard for ESPN to stay out of the red. What I'm talking about is much simpler. Rather than putting on a lavish sports spectacular and then airing the footage, USPA should pay an editor and a couple of commentators a little money to put together broadcasts from existing skydiving competitions. Highlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. The public doesn't have to be obsessed with it, just intrigued by it. I feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. QuoteAnd as for it being good for the sport...How many SKysurfers are there today in the US? There were only 4 at the nationals...4 total, only one class. It did not seem to help that much. Actually, the X-games was what really kept skysurfing alive. Skysurfing is a fringe aspect of a fringe sport, so the numbers were never very high, but since ESPN dropped it, the numbers have declined to probably 10% or less of what they used to be. QuoteQuoteThe teams already hand over their footage for free for the Nationals DVD. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that use of their footage, and I seriously doubt they'd object to having it aired on ESPN. You were not in Lake Wales last year. There was quite the stink about it. People didn't want to hand over their property to the USPA so the USPA could make money. No one seemed to mind when the Wagners were doing it....It was a labor of love for the Wagners..But the USPA wanted to turn it into a comercial business. There was quite the stink about it since others were trying to make a profit off of others work. I don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. This isn't about making money; it's about supporting skydiving and the USPA. I'm pretty confident our USPA directors aren't using their positions as a front to get rich of the sweat of their constituents. We shouldn't always be so quick to assume the worst. There is something to be said for working together and being a team player.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #116 January 19, 2005 dude did you really start skydiving and hope to get paid? Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #117 January 19, 2005 QuoteI really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it So why would they get into it now? QuoteHighlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. I don't see these type of programs with Darts. QuoteI feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. I don't....People can understand ice skating and dart throwing. I could go throw darts in about 15 mins if I wanted to. I could be skating in less than an hour. I also have already thrown darts, and skated. I just went around my office and asked three questions to people. 1. Have you ice skated? 2. Have you thrown a dart? 3. Have you made a skydive? All said they have thrown darts, most said they have skated one skydives. When I asked them if they would like to do those things....All said they would throw darts, a few think an ice skating trip could be fun (I think I am gonna get stuck organizing one )...No one wants to skydive. We have two Tandem Masters on staff...Know how many people either of us have taken on a jump? NONE. QuoteI don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. These are PROFESSIONAL video people. They do this for a living. It is their lively hood. I object to you calling them "prima donnas". How would you feel if the work you did was taken by someone else and used to make money? I think you are missing the big picture. Most people don't want to jump, they don't care how much you love it they don't care to know. I don't have any interest in basket weaving, but I know people that LOVE it. I would not cared enough to watch it for more than 10 mins EVER. The same thing about skydiving. Hell I get bored watching skydiving. A whuffo will watch for max 10 mins. Ever notice that skydiving movies don't make it big? People don't care. You have drive, but the reality is that if this sport was for everyone then we would not lose so many students. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites plowdirt 0 #118 January 19, 2005 FA2, I would say this is not a something so badly issue anymore as much as it's become a debate. but, as you can see a few more have jumped on the load. This whole point of view has started for a reason, some of us would like to see this sport/hobbie whatever grow, with the hopes that it will bring more money to the industry,association etc. We already have the issues incedents, and if ten-K more people get into the sport and the incedents double, it's just a numbers game then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #119 January 19, 2005 Nope and as one thats seen any of the year end videos I worked on knows I do it for fun. BUT I do expect that if I work hard and actually make something that someone else is going to sell for money I should get a cut of that. I GAVE a friend of mine my freefly tube. All that I asked was if he wanted to sell it he had to give it back to me and I'd find a new home for it with someone that really wanted it. I've trained probally 10 people on how to fly Birdman suits with my second demo suit for FREE. Here is a question for you. How much do you think the average CAMERA FLYER (not just any Joe Shome freeflyer with a camera) has invested in their camera gear? I'm not even into the stills yet and I'm up to a $2000 package on my head. After this spring it'll be at about $3500. Take a look at this thread and come back and tell me if camera flyers should just do it for free. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1435985#1435985 Oh, how many tandem masters and tandem video guys do you see doing it for free? Its all about love for the sport so they should just do it for free right? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #120 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it So why whould they get into it now? QuoteHighlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. I don't see these type of programs with Darts. Yes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. QuoteQuoteI feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. I don't....People can understand ice skating and dart throwing. I could go throw darts in about 15 mins if I wanted to. I could be skating in less than an hour. I also have already thrown darts, and skated. I just went around my office and asked three questions to people. 1. Have you ice skated? 2. Have you thrown a dart? 3. Have you made a skydive? All said they have thrown darts, most said they have skated one skydives. When I asked them if they would like to do those things....All said they would throw darts, a few think an ice skating trip could be fun (I think I am gonna get stuck organizing one )...No one wants to skydive. We have two Tandem Masters on staff...Know how many people either of us have taken on a jump? NONE. People don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. QuoteQuoteI don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. These are PROFESSIONAL vidoe people. They do this for a living. It is their lively hood. I object to you calling them "prima donnas". How would you feel if the work you did was taken by someone else and used to make money? If you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. QuoteI think you are missing the big picture. Most people don't want to jump, they don't care how much you love it they don't care to know. I don't have any interest in basket weaving, but I know people that LOVE it. I would not cared enought to watch it for more than 10 mins EVER. The same thing about skydiving. Hell I get bored watching skydiving. A whuffo will watch for max 10 mins. Ever notice that skydiving movies don't make it big? People don't care. You have drive, but the reality is that if this sport was for everyone then we would not lose so many students. This isn't about talking the rest of the world into skydiving anymore than ice skating broadcasts are about talking the rest of the world into ice skating. Skydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #121 January 19, 2005 QuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #122 January 19, 2005 QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #123 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". You keep harping on this "relate to" angle, but the truth is, in the year 2005, most people relate to a given sport because they've been exposed to it on TV. I've never seen anyone do a triple lutz, in person. The general public is not as dumb as you seem to think they are, and skydiving is not nearly as hard to follow as you seem to think it is. I've never snow boarded, and I've never been to a snow boarding competition. I relate to it because I've seen it on TV. And when I watch a snowboarding competition on TV, which I do from time-to-time, I'm drawing my knowledge of snowboarding from the other snowboarding competitions I've watched. QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues? You seem to be ignoring most of what I write and seeing only what you want to read. ESPN dropped skysurfing because the X-Games are expensive to produce and they couldn't figure out the sponsorship angle, not because nobody wanted to watch it. My plan is much more cost efficient. Yes, televised skydiving failed in the X-Games, but it has never been tried in a cost effective manner. You're not very clear about how I'm being narrow minded; perhaps you could make your case rather than just impugn my judgment. Finally, I don't recall calling anybody "an asshole" or "stupid." Those inflammatory remarks are your own.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #124 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay. If the teams are paying the camera man then it's a work-for-hire, and the footage belongs to the team. I don't think having your footage used to promote the sport of skydiving is an unfair price to pay for getting to train, travel, and compete for free. Yes, my teammate is a great guy, but skysurfing camera flyers operate differently because they are considered part of the team, on par with the skysurfer they film. The camera flyer's moves are judged by the same judges who judge the skysurfer. The camera flyer on a skysurfing team isn't simply charged with documenting each round; he/she is actually required to participate. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe any of the skysurfers at Nationals paid their camera flyers.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites plowdirt 0 #125 January 19, 2005 Douva, Heel just keep going and going. agree to disagree, and in a couple of years we can all sit down and have a beer and laugh about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
plowdirt 0 #118 January 19, 2005 FA2, I would say this is not a something so badly issue anymore as much as it's become a debate. but, as you can see a few more have jumped on the load. This whole point of view has started for a reason, some of us would like to see this sport/hobbie whatever grow, with the hopes that it will bring more money to the industry,association etc. We already have the issues incedents, and if ten-K more people get into the sport and the incedents double, it's just a numbers game then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #119 January 19, 2005 Nope and as one thats seen any of the year end videos I worked on knows I do it for fun. BUT I do expect that if I work hard and actually make something that someone else is going to sell for money I should get a cut of that. I GAVE a friend of mine my freefly tube. All that I asked was if he wanted to sell it he had to give it back to me and I'd find a new home for it with someone that really wanted it. I've trained probally 10 people on how to fly Birdman suits with my second demo suit for FREE. Here is a question for you. How much do you think the average CAMERA FLYER (not just any Joe Shome freeflyer with a camera) has invested in their camera gear? I'm not even into the stills yet and I'm up to a $2000 package on my head. After this spring it'll be at about $3500. Take a look at this thread and come back and tell me if camera flyers should just do it for free. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1435985#1435985 Oh, how many tandem masters and tandem video guys do you see doing it for free? Its all about love for the sport so they should just do it for free right? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #120 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI really think it was more of a case of the investors not getting into it So why whould they get into it now? QuoteHighlights could be provided to mainstream sports shows interested in showing short clips, and the full broadcasts could be aired on one of the secondary sports networks, like ESPN 2. I don't see these type of programs with Darts. Yes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. QuoteQuoteI feel pretty confident that the same people who get sucked into watching figure skating and dart throwing competitions would be sucked in by something as fast and fluid as skydiving. I don't....People can understand ice skating and dart throwing. I could go throw darts in about 15 mins if I wanted to. I could be skating in less than an hour. I also have already thrown darts, and skated. I just went around my office and asked three questions to people. 1. Have you ice skated? 2. Have you thrown a dart? 3. Have you made a skydive? All said they have thrown darts, most said they have skated one skydives. When I asked them if they would like to do those things....All said they would throw darts, a few think an ice skating trip could be fun (I think I am gonna get stuck organizing one )...No one wants to skydive. We have two Tandem Masters on staff...Know how many people either of us have taken on a jump? NONE. People don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. QuoteQuoteI don't know what kind of prima donnas were raising a stink about their footage being used for free, but skydivers need to wake up and look at the bigger picture. These are PROFESSIONAL vidoe people. They do this for a living. It is their lively hood. I object to you calling them "prima donnas". How would you feel if the work you did was taken by someone else and used to make money? If you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. QuoteI think you are missing the big picture. Most people don't want to jump, they don't care how much you love it they don't care to know. I don't have any interest in basket weaving, but I know people that LOVE it. I would not cared enought to watch it for more than 10 mins EVER. The same thing about skydiving. Hell I get bored watching skydiving. A whuffo will watch for max 10 mins. Ever notice that skydiving movies don't make it big? People don't care. You have drive, but the reality is that if this sport was for everyone then we would not lose so many students. This isn't about talking the rest of the world into skydiving anymore than ice skating broadcasts are about talking the rest of the world into ice skating. Skydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #121 January 19, 2005 QuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #122 January 19, 2005 QuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #123 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes, you do; you just don't realize it. When you watch these non-mainstream sports broadcast on ESPN 2, what you're actually watching are clip shows. You're seeing the "down to the wire" rounds with the dead time edited out and color commentary edited in. You still miss the fact that most people don't care. They don't understand skydiving and they really don't find it interesting for more than a few mins. QuotePeople don't understand ice skating. They grasp that it's supposed to look pretty, more turns are better than less, and falling is bad, but the don't grasp the nuances or technical judging criteria of it. People just enjoy watching it. SOME people enjoy watching it. Even less will enjoy watching skydiving. People can relate to skating or NASCAR...They have no idea about skydiving at all. And most don't care either. The only skydiving they want to see is the stuff that makes "Real TV". You keep harping on this "relate to" angle, but the truth is, in the year 2005, most people relate to a given sport because they've been exposed to it on TV. I've never seen anyone do a triple lutz, in person. The general public is not as dumb as you seem to think they are, and skydiving is not nearly as hard to follow as you seem to think it is. I've never snow boarded, and I've never been to a snow boarding competition. I relate to it because I've seen it on TV. And when I watch a snowboarding competition on TV, which I do from time-to-time, I'm drawing my knowledge of snowboarding from the other snowboarding competitions I've watched. QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. VERY narrow minded view. So as long as it fits your agenda its OK. If it does not fit your agenda then they are assholes? QuoteSkydiving videos are boring because they're just clip after clip of skydives set to music. Hell, that bores me in any sport. But intense competition with color commentary and explanation is different. It's exciting, it's beautiful, and most importantly, it's entertaining. If it were so great Xgames would not have dropped skydiving like a rock. It is a small segment of the population, a population that can't relate to it, and will not bother to watchit for more than a few mins. It has been tried and it has failed. Best of luck, but I take offense at you thinking anyone that does not agree with you to be stupid....Ya think it might be becasue we have already gone through this before and seen it fail? Ya think it might be because we are able to look past our love of the sport to look at the real issues? You seem to be ignoring most of what I write and seeing only what you want to read. ESPN dropped skysurfing because the X-Games are expensive to produce and they couldn't figure out the sponsorship angle, not because nobody wanted to watch it. My plan is much more cost efficient. Yes, televised skydiving failed in the X-Games, but it has never been tried in a cost effective manner. You're not very clear about how I'm being narrow minded; perhaps you could make your case rather than just impugn my judgment. Finally, I don't recall calling anybody "an asshole" or "stupid." Those inflammatory remarks are your own.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #124 January 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you're shooting video and stills with the intent of selling your work to media outlets then you can be picky about who uses your work, but if you're a team videographer, you need to get your head out of your wallet and play for the team. Wow... you know that just about all the Open teams pay their videographer on a PER jump basis to be there to film right? They pick up his slot, pay his pack job and usually pay about $10-20 per jump. If you are filming at that level you better be on your game 100% of the time. Top camera flyers like Rickster can gaurentee his results almost. If your video is the slightest bit screwed up at that level it might result in NJ's and there you go from 1st to 4th. Ask the Advanced teams what they pay for their videographers. Its not cheap to pick up a videoperson for a whole year. EXPECIALLY if you are doing 400-1000 jumps a year. At that level most camera flyer JUST fly camera for a living since there is little time to do anything else. Read this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=458084#458084 Your teammate hooked you up with a killer deal last year. MUCH better then the 4 way teams pay. If the teams are paying the camera man then it's a work-for-hire, and the footage belongs to the team. I don't think having your footage used to promote the sport of skydiving is an unfair price to pay for getting to train, travel, and compete for free. Yes, my teammate is a great guy, but skysurfing camera flyers operate differently because they are considered part of the team, on par with the skysurfer they film. The camera flyer's moves are judged by the same judges who judge the skysurfer. The camera flyer on a skysurfing team isn't simply charged with documenting each round; he/she is actually required to participate. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe any of the skysurfers at Nationals paid their camera flyers.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plowdirt 0 #125 January 19, 2005 Douva, Heel just keep going and going. agree to disagree, and in a couple of years we can all sit down and have a beer and laugh about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
