Dual AAD's?

[skyborne 0]

Thought I read somewhere where dual ADD's were used on a rig but I cannot find the source. Just added insurance? Does anyone know if this could makes sense in some cases beyond that? Seems like it could if they are independently set for different emergency scenarios. Maybe not. Any comments?

[AggieDave 6]

The USAF Academy uses (or used) an AAD on the reserve and the main of their highly modified AFF program.

In the civilian sport jumping world I can not see where this would be a good thing. Honestly it would and could cause more problems then it would solve.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[labrys 0]

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Does anyone know if this could makes sense in some cases beyond that?

While I don't have enough insight or experience to really think much about how this might work for students or other jumpers, I really cringe at the idea if I try to apply it to myself. I want complete control over when my main deploys (assuming that's what you mean by "dual aads").

If I choose to go low I'd never want an AAD second guessing me. What altitude could you even set it at? 1500 feet? That's a little too close for comfort to having both AADs fire for me. 2000 feet? No, I might choose to deploy at 2000 feet and not want to have to race an AAD to get open. 2500 feet? Not a chance in hell. I'm comfortable at that altitude.

I'm fine with the idea that my existing AAD may or may not cut my reserve closing loop if I'm low with nothing open, but I'm not fine having an AAD deploy my main. YMMV.

Owned by Remi #?

[keithbar 1]

yeah highly modified program is right. I caught a show about the usaf program one night. i was like holy shit. thats one way to teach em hop out on the first one and save your own ass or wait on the main aad and deal with what ever came with it. wish i would have got that program on tape.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Squeak 17]

Where i did my AFF they used 2 AAD a KAP3 on the main (ripcord with a spring loaded PC) and a cypres on the reserve.

just more insurance, and probably a bit cheaper for the DZO, no replacement cutters need for go low students

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[skypuppy 1]

Skydive Toronto also uses this program for freefall students. The main aad is set for 3000 with the idea that the student will probably have pulled but the aad may very well fire anyway before the main has slowed the jumper down. The idea is to avoid situations of no-pull or low-pull on the main....

If the student has a problem deploying the main, he is taught to make one more attempt, then go for reserve. The idea is that the main will deploy by itself if he has a problem instead of him trying to deploy the main until the reserve aad fires and possibly having two out.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[derrickiv 0]

What about when the student has a hard pull and goes to reserve while he's falling through the main AAD deployment range?

I know you should cut-away first anyhow, but students might not do that...

[skypuppy 1]

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What about when the student has a hard pull and goes to reserve while he's falling through the main AAD deployment range?

I know you should cut-away first anyhow, but students might not do that...

Students are taught NOT to begin pull sequence above 3500 feet, that way they would have to be REAL fast to miss their first try at the main, try once more and still pull the reserve before the main had come out. It is realized that 8 or 9 times out of 10 the main aad will activate, even though the student has already pulled the ripcord, because the main aad is set relatively high.

The only problem is when students take it upon themselves (or instructors misguidedly tell them) that it is ok to deploy high, thinking it safer or makes them feel better. Then, if they have a problem and initiate reserve procedures high, you can have a two out situation.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Any comments?

More trouble. Nice ways to kill yourself creatively.

[billvon 2,400]

>Does anyone know if this could makes sense in some cases beyond that?

For students or unusual skydiving situations it might make sense. It generally involves a ripcord activated main and a regular loop-cutter AAD on the reserve. The main AAD is generally set high and is an easily reset mechanical sort of AAD.

IIRC, Strong was pushing an odd sort of AFP for a short time where students started out on a tandem then progressed to a tandem-style solo rig with a drouge. For systems like that it could make a lot of sense. The "high" AAD would release the drouge by, say, 3000 feet if the student didn't pull, and the "low" AAD (cypres) would fire by 750. That helps get the drouge out of the way before the reserve fires (if it does.)

I don't know of anyone who used that system though; I only saw the ads for the gear.

[DJL 232]

Sorry to change topic but what is the exit supposed to be like. PCA the student?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,400]

>Sorry to change topic but what is the exit supposed to be like. PCA the student?

I assume so. Like I said, I never saw anyone use it in a program; I just saw the gear description.

[matthewcline 0]

Former US President G.H.W. Bush used this set up when he did his AFF jump with Andy Serrano and Chris Needles a few years ago.

IIRC - He had an FXC on his ripcord main and a Student Cypress on his reserve.

The main was set at 3500' and the Student Cypress as per factory setting.

Parachutist had an article on it when they did the jump and there may be some info in a historical web file some where.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Thought I read somewhere where dual ADD's were used on a rig but I cannot find the source. Just added insurance? Does anyone know if this could makes sense in some cases beyond that? Seems like it could if they are independently set for different emergency scenarios. Maybe not. Any comments?

I've seen student rigs where there was an FXC on the main instead of the reserve. I think maybe Perris used such a set-up once-upon-a-time; maybe one of the ol' grey-hairs around here that used to instruct at Perris back in the day will chime in and confirm or deny.

I've also heard that when George Bush did his AFF jump that there was an AAD on both the main and reserve. Face it, you don't want to bounce a former President of the U.S.

[billvon 2,400]

> I think maybe Perris used such a set-up once-upon-a-time.

They did, but they discovered the weakness in that system when Lutz made his infamous jump.

[matthewcline 0]

Was that a dual ADD set up or a Main ADD set up?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[riggerrob 558]

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Former US President G.H.W. Bush used this set up when he did his AFF jump with Andy Serrano and Chris Needles a few years ago.

IIRC - He had an FXC on his ripcord main and a Student Cypress on his reserve.

The main was set at 3500' and the Student Cypress as per factory setting.

Parachutist had an article on it when they did the jump and there may be some info in a historical web file some where.

Matt

......................................................................

Yes, but with three different methods of activating the main, it was hopelessly complex and extremely sensitive to "inventive" packing.
The main could be activated by pulling the main ripcord (right main lift web), secondary instructor's handle (lower left corner) or by scaring the FXC 12000 pin-puller AAD.
There was a spring-loaded main pilot chute.
This required a double-ended closing loop that was very sensitive. If you made the loop a half inch too long, it could easily jam.

When George Bush Senior's rig left Rigging Innovations Sandy Reid said "That is the last rig - of that pattern - we will ever build."

[matthewcline 0]

Was it that complicated due to the tech available at the time?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[riggerrob 558]

I've seen student rigs where there was an FXC on the main instead of the reserve. I think maybe Perris used such a set-up once-upon-a-time; maybe one of the ol' grey-hairs around here that used to instruct at Perris back in the day will chime in and confirm or deny.

.........................................................................

Yes.
When Perris Valley Skydiving School ordered Telesis Student rigs (from Rigging Innovations) in the early 1990s, they had FXC 12000 (pin-puller) AADs installed on their main ripcords.
As Cypres gained popularity, they installed Student Cypres in Telesis reserve containers.
In the late 1990s, all the student rigs in Perris had two AADs.
Circa 2001, the school rigger asked me to remove all the main FXCs and spring-loaded main pilot chutes. Then I sewed on Spandex BOCs with two handles.
This was part of the process of American DZs converting to hand-deploy pilot chutes for freefall students.
... humorous from the Canadian perspective!

[riggerrob 558]

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Was it that complicated due to the tech available at the time?

Matt

....................................................................

Yes, but materials technology has not advanced since then.
We are still using gutted 550 cord of main closing loops.
The only alternative is Spectra suspension line with about the same cross-section.
The problem is that the spring can push the loose (inner) end of the (double-ended) loop so tight against a grommet, that it cannot release.

You can create the same problem with (thin) Cypres cord if you make the reserve closing loop too long. If the closing loop is so long that it weaves its way through the grommets (as opposed to the preferred almost straight routing), the spring wastes a lot of energy dragging the too-long closing loop through the grommets. And every bend (around a grommet) wastes more energy. Even if the Cypres cutter severs the loop, the spring can create too much friction to allow the side flaps to open.
The lower (closer to the back pad) the cutter is in the reserve container, the greater the problem.

We are still waiting for a technological advance to solve this problem.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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We are still waiting for a technological advance to solve this problem.

Actually, the technology is there. You use SMDC instead of binding tape in and around the reserve pack tray. In addition to the reserve handle / ripcord used to pull the reserve pin, rig it to also actuates the SMDC, thus, blowing all the flaps off of the reserve pack tray. Viola! Problem of the spring loaded reserve pilot chute having to push through all those flaps SOLVED! Of course, rig overhaul and repack after a reserve ride and the addition of body armour to the back of folks jumpsuits would be "expensive".

[Baksteen 84]

NickDG once made a post in which he tells of what actually happened during Lutz's jump.

Took me a lot of sifting through all the drivel, hating and bitching about Lutz on here to find out what really happened on that jump (thanks Nick) and maybe the old post is relevant again in this thread.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[brettski74 0]

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What about when the student has a hard pull and goes to reserve while he's falling through the main AAD deployment range?

I know you should cut-away first anyhow, but students might not do that...

You have a hard pull, so nothing at all is out, and you want to pull your cutaway handle? I suggest that you review your emergency procedures.

[billvon 2,400]

>You have a hard pull, so nothing at all is out, and you want to pull your cutaway handle?

Many places (including Perris and San Diego) teach just that.

[mdrejhon 8]

I asked instructors about this three years ago, and was basically told that either procedure was legitimate, but that it was important to stick to only one as a student - both handles, because it was easier to memorize.

There are a lot of debate in the past.

Not cutting away a high speed malfunction has actually killed skydivers (example).

The converse is also true: Cutting away a high speed malfunction have also killed skydivers too. So it's pretty much crapshoot, the word frequently used here in dropzone...

So most dropzones, including mine, teach to go to both handles -- as new skydivers for a simpler one-fits-all emergency procedure.