reserve help please !!!!!!!!!!

[charly 0]

i am waiting for my new container. i've been told that once i've been jumping my 190 sabre 2 for a while i can down size and my container will accomodate a smaller canopy. MY QUESTION IS: when you downsize your main canopy i,e from a 190 to a 170. do i also downsize my reserve as well?

from what i've seen people's reserve's are smaller than their main.

many thanks

[councilman24 36]

No there is no need to downsize your reserve. In fact depending on the size of the rig and the size of the current reserve you may not be able to. While both main and reserve containers can usually accomidate at least two sizes safely (maybe more in one or both) Both main and reserve containers can be too 'empty' to be safe. Usually for slightly different reasons.

These days, for experienced jumpers, there reserves are often/usually bigger than there mains.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,406]

>MY QUESTION IS: when you downsize your main canopy i,e from a 190 to a
>170. do i also downsize my reserve as well?

No. Choose a reserve that will land you safely under bad conditions, not a reserve that's a similar size as your main. There is no requirement that they be similar sizes.

I jump a Crossfire2 109 and my main is a PD143. My rationale is that I'm never going to be under a reserve thinking "damn, this thing is too big" - but I might someday think the opposite if I had a PD106 reserve.

[fred 0]

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No. Choose a reserve that will land you safely under bad conditions, not a reserve that's a similar size as your main. There is no requirement that they be similar sizes.

I jump a Crossfire2 109 and my main is a PD143. My rationale is that I'm never going to be under a reserve thinking "damn, this thing is too big" - but I might someday think the opposite if I had a PD106 reserve.

I've never met you, Bill, but I know you're very experienced, and from your DZ.com posts, I think you're very safety conscious. I'm a much less experienced jumper, so I hope you'll take this as a question rather than an attack.

Assuming you're an average sized guy, aren't you loading that PD143 reserve at 1.3 or greater? While that's not aggressive for somebody who's an advance canopy pilot, Is it really safe for landing in adverse conditions?

There are a lot of things that could happen that would require your reserve. You could have partials or totals that allow you to release your reserve and land happily. But there's also the risk of something more severe. You could break or dislocate an arm or a leg, or worse, be rendered unconscious. Assuming your AAD activates your reserve in such a circumstance, would a 143 sq ft canopy actually save you?

It just seems to me that we should have large reserves to cover all bases. Certainly they should be larger than our aggressive mains, but probably larger than most people have.

[erdnarob 1]

For information purpose, Paragear catalog on the Vector III M compatibility chart shows these 4 successive container sizes to accomodate the following:

1) container size V348M (10x12x19x5) canopy : SABRE 170, Stiletto 170 with reserve : PD 160R, Raven 1
2) container size V350M (10x12x19x5.5") canopy : SABRE 190, SPECTRE 190 with reserve :PD 176R, Raven 1
3) container size V351M (12x14x20x3.75) canopy : SABRE 190, Silhouette 190 with reserve : PD 160R, Raven 1
4) container size V352M (12x14x19x4.25") canopy : SABRE 190, SPECTRE 190 with reserve : PD176R, Raven 1
figures given are: (width at the top x width at the bottom x length x thickness)
I don't know about other containers but if you look at the above figures you have to be careful. Make sure to ask the question about going from 190 ZP to 170 ZP to your container manufacturer. When your container is closed with a smaller canopy than the original one, it's important to have it tight enough to make sure the pin will not slip too easily for safety purpose. Donwsizing the main canopy using the same container makes more volume available and it is a good reason to keep the same reserve size. You can accommodate the difference in canopy size by changing the length of the closing loop but to a certain extent.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hackish 8]

Fred, have a search around and see if you can find a copy of the 2 out report. In that the test jumpers found that in a 2 out situation they were best behaved if the canopies were not extremely mismatched as far as size goes. This should be part of the safety consideration when sizing these things.

If billvon is able to fly a 103 then a 143 is likely to feel like the goodyear blimp. It's all perspective. My 170 felt very slow after trying out a 135. I still prefer the 170 mind you but the difference is significant.

The other important thing to consider and I know it's been mentioned many times here is that some older reserves do not behave very well when heavily loaded. Just another part of the size evaluation.

-Michael

[mrbiceps 0]

I am sure that bill with 5500 jumps can land a reserve that is 30% bigger than his main quite safely.

[Skydivesg 6]

I'm jumping a Katana 120 and a PDR 126. I'm saving my pennies so I can up size my reserve to an Optimum 143 which will pack the same as my PDR 126.

Once you put a handful of jumps on the Optimum you will never want to go back to anything else.

And you can upsize at the same time.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

Assuming you're an average sized guy, aren't you loading that PD143 reserve at 1.3 or greater? While that's not aggressive for somebody who's an advance canopy pilot, Is it really safe for landing in adverse conditions?

There are a lot of things that could happen that would require your reserve. You could have partials or totals that allow you to release your reserve and land happily. But there's also the risk of something more severe. You could break or dislocate an arm or a leg, or worse, be rendered unconscious. Assuming your AAD activates your reserve in such a circumstance, would a 143 sq ft canopy actually save you?

It just seems to me that we should have large reserves to cover all bases. Certainly they should be larger than our aggressive mains, but probably larger than most people have.

Bill's a cool guy and will probably give you his personal answer, but a couple of thoughts...

it's true main and reserve don't need to be the same size, but there is a point where it becomes difficult to have a large size difference. Having a 109 and say a 210 reserve, while not impossible, would be very difficult and require a custom-sized container.

a 1.3 WL reserve might not save you if you are unconcious during landing, but those circumstances are quite rare. It's one of the risks that many people accept. We are after all already accepting the risk of being unconcious or severely injured under a main (I've seen it!) For the experienced, a very large reserve can also be a liability... PD has an article where they found that in a 2-out situation the most dangerous configuration is to have a main and reserve of significantly different sizes.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Bertt 0]

Here's the link to the dual square report http://performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

I think it's worth mentioning that having one canopy out at a time is much more likely than having two canopies out, so it's probably better to keep the reserve as big as your container allows rather than downsize the reserve with the main.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[dragon2 0]

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I think it's worth mentioning that having one canopy out at a time is much more likely than having two canopies out, so it's probably better to keep the reserve as big as your container allows rather than downsize the reserve with the main.

+1

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

Quote

Assuming you're an average sized guy, aren't you loading that PD143 reserve at 1.3 or greater? While that's not aggressive for somebody who's an advance canopy pilot, Is it really safe for landing in adverse conditions?

There are a lot of things that could happen that would require your reserve. You could have partials or totals that allow you to release your reserve and land happily. But there's also the risk of something more severe. You could break or dislocate an arm or a leg, or worse, be rendered unconscious. Assuming your AAD activates your reserve in such a circumstance, would a 143 sq ft canopy actually save you?

It just seems to me that we should have large reserves to cover all bases. Certainly they should be larger than our aggressive mains, but probably larger than most people have.

Bill's a cool guy and will probably give you his personal answer, but a couple of thoughts...

it's true main and reserve don't need to be the same size, but there is a point where it becomes difficult to have a large size difference. Having a 109 and say a 210 reserve, while not impossible, would be very difficult and require a custom-sized container.

a 1.3 WL reserve might not save you if you are unconcious during landing, but those circumstances are quite rare. It's one of the risks that many people accept. We are after all already accepting the risk of being unconcious or severely injured under a main (I've seen it!) For the experienced, a very large reserve can also be a liability... PD has an article where they found that in a 2-out situation the most dangerous configuration is to have a main and reserve of significantly different sizes.

To add to the point of a 1.3 WL "saving" you while unconscious I think you are correct that chances are it will not. One of a few situations I have had a experienced with in regards to this was my fathers. He had a heart attack during deployment and never touched his toggles. He was 220# jumping a 220 Triathlon, his rig weighed about 30#s full. The winds were 10-12 mph he landed downwind with brakes stowed. He went head over heels and broke his neck and nose on landing. We believe the neck was not broken on opening due to the jump track data. It did not show anything unusual with the data compiled compared to previous jumps. He was leaning in the harness and it did create a very slight turn but not enough to be considered unsurvivable IMO.
Our thoughts are that even if the heart attack had not of killed him the broken neck would have, especially with the amount of time it took to get him some assistance.
So my belief is that even at a 1.1WL I dont think it is survivable, but the circumstances can be different, a tree landing might be survivable, or some other potential "cushion" for impact, or even what position the body is, in may create a survivable situation. But at 1.1 straight in landing with no flare IMO has a low chance of surviving.
What WL is survivable I really don't know, I just thought Id share a situation that involves an unconscious pilot and what we learned from it. And of course I did upsize my reserve after this from a 126 to 143, still not enough IMO but better than the 126.
You are also correct that we accept the risk and it is a rare situation, as should 2 out, but unfortunately it seems to happen more often.
Hope this wasnt to off track, just thought it might give a bit of "insight" or "real" situations to consider when choosing a reserve.
One other point that my father always said: "Always go for the largest reserve you can, if you are in a situation where everything is a ball of trash, you want as much trash as you can get over your head."

J

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

Quote

I think it's worth mentioning that having one canopy out at a time is much more likely than having two canopies out, so it's probably better to keep the reserve as big as your container allows rather than downsize the reserve with the main.

+1

+2

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Here's the link to the dual square report http://performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf

I think it's worth mentioning that having one canopy out at a time is much more likely than having two canopies out, so it's probably better to keep the reserve as big as your container allows rather than downsize the reserve with the main.

No question that you are correct. Most containers won't allow more than a size or two difference anyway... maybe more in the extreme case of a X-braced main and Optimum reserve.

My point was only to illustrate that while having a reserve a size or two bigger is good, having one several sizes bigger may not be so good. In addition to the dual-square scenario, a very large reserve may increase your odds of landing off in bad winds (although obviously if you are far enough out that you would have had to land off anyway the larger size becomes an asset).

I was also (poorly) trying to convey that although a lower WL will certainly help you land safely with all your faculties, if you're incapacitated it probably isn't going to help you, as demonstrated by the story above. And for any pilot who is competent with his main, going up a couple sizes is going to provide a lot of margin. 1.3 probably means death if unconcious, but provides a LOT of margin for the concious pilot who is accustomed to flying at 1.7.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[dragon2 0]

I had 2 out with a skymaster 230 and a big student reserve, they still downplaned on me even though they were both square and similar size. I very much doubt a non-square main (the more HP the worse) is going to play nice with any size reserve and the chances of you ending up with 2 out are pretty slim, a single reserve canopy is much more likely so you want a reserve you can land anywhere anytime regardless of your main.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[fred 0]

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Bill's a cool guy and will probably give you his personal answer

I hope I didn't come off as saying otherwise. I have a lot of respect for Bill, which is why I asked the question. He seems very responsible and safety conscious, so I expect he's thought about this. I have the utmost respect for bill, which is why I was hoping he'd rationalize his choice.

I think it's a matter of accepting the risk, and I'm okay with that.

[indyz 1]

Quote

To add to the point of a 1.3 WL "saving" you while unconscious I think you are correct that chances are it will not. One of a few situations I have had a experienced with in regards to this was my fathers. He had a heart attack during deployment and never touched his toggles. He was 220# jumping a 220 Triathlon, his rig weighed about 30#s full. The winds were 10-12 mph he landed downwind with brakes stowed. He went head over heels and broke his neck and nose on landing. We believe the neck was not broken on opening due to the jump track data. It did not show anything unusual with the data compiled compared to previous jumps. He was leaning in the harness and it did create a very slight turn but not enough to be considered unsurvivable IMO.
Our thoughts are that even if the heart attack had not of killed him the broken neck would have, especially with the amount of time it took to get him some assistance.
So my belief is that even at a 1.1WL I dont think it is survivable, but the circumstances can be different, a tree landing might be survivable, or some other potential "cushion" for impact, or even what position the body is, in may create a survivable situation. But at 1.1 straight in landing with no flare IMO has a low chance of surviving.
What WL is survivable I really don't know, I just thought Id share a situation that involves an unconscious pilot and what we learned from it. And of course I did upsize my reserve after this from a 126 to 143, still not enough IMO but better than the 126.
You are also correct that we accept the risk and it is a rare situation, as should 2 out, but unfortunately it seems to happen more often.
Hope this wasnt to off track, just thought it might give a bit of "insight" or "real" situations to consider when choosing a reserve.
One other point that my father always said: "Always go for the largest reserve you can, if you are in a situation where everything is a ball of trash, you want as much trash as you can get over your head."

I've got to disagree about what wingloading is unlikely to be survivable. When I had about 25 jumps I flew a Spectre at 1.25:1 into the ground in full flight and walked away with bloody knees. Since then I've seen swoopers hit much, much harder and live. I think that surviving an unconscious landing is possible and even likely at a significantly higher wingloading than most people believe.

[gearless_chris 1]

I landed my Nitron at 1.4 W/L with no flare. I was conscious though. I got a cut under my eye from my glasses, other than that I was fine. Landed in a freshly picked corn field instead of the landing area. If you're gonna biff in, corn fields are usually softer than grass. Grass gets driven on a lot and it doesn't get turned up like a field does.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[bodypilot90 0]

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I've got to disagree about what wingloading is unlikely to be survivable. When I had about 25 jumps I flew a Spectre at 1.25:1 into the ground in full flight and walked away with bloody knees. Since then I've seen swoopers hit much, much harder and live. I think that surviving an unconscious landing is possible and even likely at a significantly higher wingloading than most people believe.

Why not stack the odds in your favor? I never have wished for a smaller reserve during my reserve rides.