DrewEckhardt 0 #51 October 21, 2008 Quote BTW - FAR 91.67 (f) "Aircraft while on final approach to land, or while landing, have the right of way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface". We aren't airplanes, but i would think the rules still apply. Right of way doesn't make you heal any faster, but gives you right to yell a little. The analog here is a plane landing some place other than the runway and crashing into a parked or taxiing aircraft. If you're in a small well defined landing area like pea gravel or a swoop course that's roughly analagous to a runway, you should get out. You shouldn't have to fear for your safety just because you're at an airport or adjacent farmer's field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #52 October 21, 2008 Quote I agree with Squeak 100%! Walking accuracy is a LOT BETTER than landing accuracy! Think of all those accuracy chugs/swooping chugs done and watch. Everybody gets the beer by walking to it. Final approach speed on a small parachute is 50+ MPH and a few hundred feet long. There are LOTS of places the parachutist can end up. Walking speed is about 4 MPH. Running unsustainably fast (for a non-olympic athlete) about 15 MPH. No matter how hard you try you can't outrun an unguided meat missle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,470 #53 October 21, 2008 >it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 >steps to the side to avoid being hit. Not at all. It _greatly_ depends on the person. If Lew is coming in and she's coming straight at me, taking 1 or 2 steps could result in both of us being badly hurt. (She's going to turn, and I might just be walking into her trajectory.) If it's a 100 jump student, then it's safer to move - because they likely don't have the skill to avoid me and are just coming straight in. The default in any busy landing area should always be to stand still. That's predictable and people coming in can deal with that. If I'm landing, and there's two canopies in front of me and three people standing there, I may have to do some turning at the last minute. If someone darts in front of me trying to "avoid" me they might just give themselves a broken arm. The converse to that is that people with 100 jumps should not be landing in busy landing areas, and should land 'out' (in the student area, away from the main area etc) until their skills are such that they can pick a landing spot and put themselves there even with traffic and people on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #54 October 21, 2008 QuoteAt 50-75 feet I started yelling to watch out and he finally turned; but I was still forced to make an avoidance turning flare, which worked out fineQuote Just a small note, the video does not really corroborate this version of events. If you made any correction during the final few seconds it was towards the guy who started walking and away from the one stayed standing still!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #55 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteAt 50-75 feet I started yelling to watch out and he finally turned; but I was still forced to make an avoidance turning flare, which worked out fineQuote Just a small note, the video does not really corroborate this version of events. If you made any correction during the final few seconds it was towards the guy who started walking and away from the one stayed standing still! Ya, there was not really any yelling on my part. Just a heads up. I could not go back and edit that though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #56 October 21, 2008 Quote>it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 >steps to the side to avoid being hit. Not at all. It _greatly_ depends on the person. If Lew is coming in and she's coming straight at me, taking 1 or 2 steps could result in both of us being badly hurt. (She's going to turn, and I might just be walking into her trajectory.) If it's a 100 jump student, then it's safer to move - because they likely don't have the skill to avoid me and are just coming straight in. The default in any busy landing area should always be to stand still. That's predictable and people coming in can deal with that. If I'm landing, and there's two canopies in front of me and three people standing there, I may have to do some turning at the last minute. If someone darts in front of me trying to "avoid" me they might just give themselves a broken arm. The person on the ground should stand still, but if a collision is imminent, they're in a better position to dodge at the last second. They can accelerate in 360 degrees of motion, as well as down. The landing party has fewer choices available. It's often obvious that going left or right moves you out of their approach vector. And if you're standing in the swoop lane, getting out of it is a good idea, no? But if it's not clear, or you only hear yelling, duck and cover sounds best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #57 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. Every one of us was at one time “too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area.” We tend to forget this after we become skygods. But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #58 October 21, 2008 Well the way i play it is, i will not put myself in harms way to accommodate some twat who is not paying attention. However i also dont make a habit of flying into people.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildcard451 0 #59 October 22, 2008 Quote But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. The bold part is all this thread really boils down to. And not a skygod by a long shot. I'm just a drunk dick on an internet forum. /should stop posting drunk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #60 October 22, 2008 Good post Bill. When I went out later to shag the tandems, I noticed 2 low # jumpers land & pay no attention to the cocky kids coming in behind them. I told them the story about watching Mic get hit @ Z-hills. When doing up your lines TURN & FACE in coming traffic. Again.. You're not safe till you're in the hanger. And even that ain't safe sometimes!!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CazmoDee 3 #61 October 22, 2008 You get to SHAG tandems?I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #62 October 22, 2008 Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinhi79 0 #63 October 22, 2008 Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #64 October 22, 2008 Some very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, WayneThe difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #65 October 23, 2008 Actually it looks as if both of you were off landing direction 45 Deg. Wich made the two of you 90 Deg from each other.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #66 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Yep! you're an idiot. nuff said.I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #67 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #68 October 23, 2008 QuoteSome very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, Wayne I think you did the right thing. The canopy coming from the left, seems to be cross wind? Am I seeing this right?I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #69 October 23, 2008 Looks like that pilot's main intention was running those gates. Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. I think the people at your dz need to get together and talk about the landing pattern. That easily could have been another double fatality canopy collision. All it would have taken was you being a little more to the left, and for the timing to be a little different. That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 562 #70 October 23, 2008 Canopy on the right has RIGHT OF WAY ... according to ancient nautical and aeronautical tradition. But remember that it is possible to follow the letter of the law and still be DEAD RIGHT! Expect others to be idiots and give them lots of room to be idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #71 October 23, 2008 Quote Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? This was during a boogie and HP landings were against the rules, everyone was supposed to flying standard left hand patterns. Quote You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. agreed - I was watching where I was going and the other people on the ground, see OP Quote That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop. Yip, actually I suggested something altogether less friendly than taking a hop 'n' pop.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielcroft 2 #72 October 23, 2008 Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #73 October 23, 2008 Quote Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* I strongly suggest that you re-think that disregard for the rules idea. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielcroft 2 #74 October 23, 2008 That's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,368 #75 October 24, 2008 QuoteThat's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Makes sense to me. Kind of like not walking down the middle of a road closed for construction because you never know when a drunk won't see the "Road Closed" sign. Betting your life or health that other people are always going to follow all the rules will probably catch up to you sooner or later."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Bill_K 0 #55 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteAt 50-75 feet I started yelling to watch out and he finally turned; but I was still forced to make an avoidance turning flare, which worked out fineQuote Just a small note, the video does not really corroborate this version of events. If you made any correction during the final few seconds it was towards the guy who started walking and away from the one stayed standing still! Ya, there was not really any yelling on my part. Just a heads up. I could not go back and edit that though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #56 October 21, 2008 Quote>it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 >steps to the side to avoid being hit. Not at all. It _greatly_ depends on the person. If Lew is coming in and she's coming straight at me, taking 1 or 2 steps could result in both of us being badly hurt. (She's going to turn, and I might just be walking into her trajectory.) If it's a 100 jump student, then it's safer to move - because they likely don't have the skill to avoid me and are just coming straight in. The default in any busy landing area should always be to stand still. That's predictable and people coming in can deal with that. If I'm landing, and there's two canopies in front of me and three people standing there, I may have to do some turning at the last minute. If someone darts in front of me trying to "avoid" me they might just give themselves a broken arm. The person on the ground should stand still, but if a collision is imminent, they're in a better position to dodge at the last second. They can accelerate in 360 degrees of motion, as well as down. The landing party has fewer choices available. It's often obvious that going left or right moves you out of their approach vector. And if you're standing in the swoop lane, getting out of it is a good idea, no? But if it's not clear, or you only hear yelling, duck and cover sounds best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #57 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. Every one of us was at one time “too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area.” We tend to forget this after we become skygods. But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #58 October 21, 2008 Well the way i play it is, i will not put myself in harms way to accommodate some twat who is not paying attention. However i also dont make a habit of flying into people.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildcard451 0 #59 October 22, 2008 Quote But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. The bold part is all this thread really boils down to. And not a skygod by a long shot. I'm just a drunk dick on an internet forum. /should stop posting drunk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #60 October 22, 2008 Good post Bill. When I went out later to shag the tandems, I noticed 2 low # jumpers land & pay no attention to the cocky kids coming in behind them. I told them the story about watching Mic get hit @ Z-hills. When doing up your lines TURN & FACE in coming traffic. Again.. You're not safe till you're in the hanger. And even that ain't safe sometimes!!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CazmoDee 3 #61 October 22, 2008 You get to SHAG tandems?I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #62 October 22, 2008 Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyinhi79 0 #63 October 22, 2008 Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #64 October 22, 2008 Some very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, WayneThe difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnDeere 0 #65 October 23, 2008 Actually it looks as if both of you were off landing direction 45 Deg. Wich made the two of you 90 Deg from each other.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #66 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Yep! you're an idiot. nuff said.I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #67 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The_Don 0 #68 October 23, 2008 QuoteSome very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, Wayne I think you did the right thing. The canopy coming from the left, seems to be cross wind? Am I seeing this right?I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #69 October 23, 2008 Looks like that pilot's main intention was running those gates. Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. I think the people at your dz need to get together and talk about the landing pattern. That easily could have been another double fatality canopy collision. All it would have taken was you being a little more to the left, and for the timing to be a little different. That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 562 #70 October 23, 2008 Canopy on the right has RIGHT OF WAY ... according to ancient nautical and aeronautical tradition. But remember that it is possible to follow the letter of the law and still be DEAD RIGHT! Expect others to be idiots and give them lots of room to be idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites strop45 0 #71 October 23, 2008 Quote Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? This was during a boogie and HP landings were against the rules, everyone was supposed to flying standard left hand patterns. Quote You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. agreed - I was watching where I was going and the other people on the ground, see OP Quote That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop. Yip, actually I suggested something altogether less friendly than taking a hop 'n' pop.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielcroft 2 #72 October 23, 2008 Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #73 October 23, 2008 Quote Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* I strongly suggest that you re-think that disregard for the rules idea. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danielcroft 2 #74 October 23, 2008 That's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,368 #75 October 24, 2008 QuoteThat's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Makes sense to me. Kind of like not walking down the middle of a road closed for construction because you never know when a drunk won't see the "Road Closed" sign. Betting your life or health that other people are always going to follow all the rules will probably catch up to you sooner or later."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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kelpdiver 2 #56 October 21, 2008 Quote>it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 >steps to the side to avoid being hit. Not at all. It _greatly_ depends on the person. If Lew is coming in and she's coming straight at me, taking 1 or 2 steps could result in both of us being badly hurt. (She's going to turn, and I might just be walking into her trajectory.) If it's a 100 jump student, then it's safer to move - because they likely don't have the skill to avoid me and are just coming straight in. The default in any busy landing area should always be to stand still. That's predictable and people coming in can deal with that. If I'm landing, and there's two canopies in front of me and three people standing there, I may have to do some turning at the last minute. If someone darts in front of me trying to "avoid" me they might just give themselves a broken arm. The person on the ground should stand still, but if a collision is imminent, they're in a better position to dodge at the last second. They can accelerate in 360 degrees of motion, as well as down. The landing party has fewer choices available. It's often obvious that going left or right moves you out of their approach vector. And if you're standing in the swoop lane, getting out of it is a good idea, no? But if it's not clear, or you only hear yelling, duck and cover sounds best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #57 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. Every one of us was at one time “too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area.” We tend to forget this after we become skygods. But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #58 October 21, 2008 Well the way i play it is, i will not put myself in harms way to accommodate some twat who is not paying attention. However i also dont make a habit of flying into people.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #59 October 22, 2008 Quote But as you said it takes all concerned to pay attention and keep in mind that there are others using the same dz. The bold part is all this thread really boils down to. And not a skygod by a long shot. I'm just a drunk dick on an internet forum. /should stop posting drunk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #60 October 22, 2008 Good post Bill. When I went out later to shag the tandems, I noticed 2 low # jumpers land & pay no attention to the cocky kids coming in behind them. I told them the story about watching Mic get hit @ Z-hills. When doing up your lines TURN & FACE in coming traffic. Again.. You're not safe till you're in the hanger. And even that ain't safe sometimes!!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CazmoDee 3 #61 October 22, 2008 You get to SHAG tandems?I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #62 October 22, 2008 Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #63 October 22, 2008 Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #64 October 22, 2008 Some very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, WayneThe difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #65 October 23, 2008 Actually it looks as if both of you were off landing direction 45 Deg. Wich made the two of you 90 Deg from each other.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #66 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote Quote 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. This can easily be remedied by requiring all jumpers to immediately lay on the ground with their hands over there heads braced for impact until the DZ Gods sound the all clear bell. Never underestimate the value/power of the DZ Gods! It's just not a good idea. Remember your seat cushion can be used as a flotation device. Yep! you're an idiot. nuff said.I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #67 October 23, 2008 Quote Quote You get to SHAG tandems? Of course... he's THE DON!!! I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Don 0 #68 October 23, 2008 QuoteSome very good points in this thread, and I think there is a lot that can be learned from "close calls". In that light and the discussion on LZs, have a look at this http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BSvPK0uM3os. I had just returned from a wingsuit flight and flew a standard left hand pattern. At no stage in my approach did I see the other canopy. Plain and simple I fucked up, but got away with nothing more than a fright and a lesson for the future. The red arrow is the designated landing direction, which all jumpers are supposed to follow. The other jumper is one of those select few true "skygods". On a previous load, him along with his friends arranged it so that they were first out as despite the fact that they were freeflying, they "had highly loaded canopies and would be down first." I disagreed with their logic but was overridden so gave them a long delay, and still managed to just miss them landing downwind against the arrow. I discussed this with them, so am 100% certain that he knew which way they were supposed to be landing. In summary keep your head on a swivel is good advice. Stay safe, Wayne I think you did the right thing. The canopy coming from the left, seems to be cross wind? Am I seeing this right?I am NOT being loud. I'm being enthusiastic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #69 October 23, 2008 Looks like that pilot's main intention was running those gates. Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. I think the people at your dz need to get together and talk about the landing pattern. That easily could have been another double fatality canopy collision. All it would have taken was you being a little more to the left, and for the timing to be a little different. That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #70 October 23, 2008 Canopy on the right has RIGHT OF WAY ... according to ancient nautical and aeronautical tradition. But remember that it is possible to follow the letter of the law and still be DEAD RIGHT! Expect others to be idiots and give them lots of room to be idiots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #71 October 23, 2008 Quote Is that the high performance area of that DZ? What are the rules regarding that area? I really don't know why you would want gates in the middle of a conventional landing area??? This was during a boogie and HP landings were against the rules, everyone was supposed to flying standard left hand patterns. Quote You need to look around 100X more under canopy. You picked what you thought was your landing spot and didn't so much glance to the side. agreed - I was watching where I was going and the other people on the ground, see OP Quote That guy needs a kick in the ass if he is busting the pattern to swoop the gates, after a high altitude load. Tell the reckless sob to go take a hop and pop. Yip, actually I suggested something altogether less friendly than taking a hop 'n' pop.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #72 October 23, 2008 Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #73 October 23, 2008 Quote Not to say that you did the wrong thing but I wouldn't want to be landing in between gates like you did irrespective of the HP landing rules. People are people, they're likely to want to fly down the gates just because they're symmetrical. ... oh shiny object ... *wanders off* I strongly suggest that you re-think that disregard for the rules idea. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #74 October 23, 2008 That's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,368 #75 October 24, 2008 QuoteThat's not what I mean. I mean that other jumpers may be tempted to land down the swoop lane even if they aren't swooping. I was suggesting that landing anywhere near the swoop lane wasn't the best option even if people weren't allowed to swoop. Not disregarding rules, just saying that being in the swoop lane might be dangerous because *other* people might break the rules or, in the case of the video, land against the pattern down the swoop lane because it's enticing. Does that make more sense? Makes sense to me. Kind of like not walking down the middle of a road closed for construction because you never know when a drunk won't see the "Road Closed" sign. Betting your life or health that other people are always going to follow all the rules will probably catch up to you sooner or later."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
