Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008

[Fuzzy 0]

Hey Steve

Another way to look at this (questions to ask are) -

A: Are you confident you can land this canopy anywhere in any conditions a bad spot or emergency exit may put you (plowed field, beside a road, around buildings and other obsticals).

B: Can you deal with landing area congestion which could occur regardless of your intentions of staying away from it. Other jumpers may not know of or respect your desire to be alone (can you deal with getting cut off, nudged / moved over etc)

C: Something Very Important - As a coach, JM, Instructor (ratings which I believe you hold), basically a person who is supposed to be setting the example - Are you comfortable giving out "Don't do as I do, do as I say" advise to young jumpers who will be asking advice on canopy wing loadings.

Fuzzy
Ambition / Ability: Know the difference.

[ladydyver 0]

Quote

Look up a thread in the blue skies forum about someone called Ted Nelson. Downsizing caused his fatality.

When reading an incident report, downsizing is never listed as the direct cause of death. The jumper dies from a mistake they make. The point of downsizing slowly is that these mistakes will not cost you your life. Thus, almost any landing fatality for a jumper with less than, say, 600 jumps can likely be at least partially attributed to aggressive downsizing as a root cause. According to the fatalities database, in 2008 so far there were 5 fatalities among such jumpers out of a total of 14 landing accidents, a rate of more than 1 out of 3. 4 of these fatalities were on canopies considered aggressive for the experience level, arguably the 5th one too. You would be on the more aggressive side of these fatalities, most of them had more jumps than you and flew a canopy similar to yours. In fact, all people killed this year due to low turns had more jumps than you do, many of them probably had more jumps on their current canopy than you have in total.

Remember that even the most severe injuries are not listed on the fatalities database so this is likely to be an underestimate of how dangerous such flying really is.

I downsized aggressively. I now have a permanently damaged right knee that is likely to develop into possibly severe arthritis as I age. This may prevent me from participating in any more adventures once I grow up without some serious surgery/medication. If I had to do it again, I would definitely not move to a Stiletto 150 at 150 jumps. I "upsized" planforms when getting back into the sport, at great expense.

I have found the latest on this thread to be interesting and to see the different responses...I rarely post here. I blew my knee out on a landing earlier this year - I was very current (had 87 jumps for the year at the time) and had been doing well with the landings for the last 100-150 jumps. I will be back in the air in november - normally jump a pilot 168 (.98:1.0 wl) and am going to upsize to a pilot 188 (.87:1.0). Why? to protect my knee and to make the landings a little bit easier. I find it unbelievable that someone is actually downsizing after an injury esp with a high performance canopy. Some would say its "gutsy" or they have "skill." Others will defer on the side of stupidity. Different strokes for different folks - some people have different ideas about safety orientation than others.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[Bill_K 0]

So what happened to this (from other thread):

Quote

yes...I will be jumpinig a 170 for a while after I recover. who knows...maybe even larger, depending on the prognosis from the doc on the recovery of the ankle...plus my own comfort/discomfort on landing on it.

Has anybody told you what a DGIT is yet? I hate to say that you sure sound like one, but...

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Can I get $20 up on the board on Zeppo?

[Zeppo 0]

Quote

So what happened to this (from other thread):

Quote

yes...I will be jumpinig a 170 for a while after I recover. who knows...maybe even larger, depending on the prognosis from the doc on the recovery of the ankle...plus my own comfort/discomfort on landing on it.

Has anybody told you what a DGIT is yet? I hate to say that you sure sound like one, but...

Did I officially make the list of "Dead Guy in Training"?

Do I get a prize?

What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Has anybody told you what a DGIT is yet? I hate to say that you sure sound like one, but...

That's a good one, but I always preferred the term "crater bait". At least it make's them stop and think for a bit.

[Chris_K 0]

Either way it ruins jumping for others at the DZ as they have to stop operations after a fatality until the investigation is completed.

Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

[Bill_K 0]

Quote

Quote

So what happened to this (from other thread):

Quote

yes...I will be jumpinig a 170 for a while after I recover. who knows...maybe even larger, depending on the prognosis from the doc on the recovery of the ankle...plus my own comfort/discomfort on landing on it.

Has anybody told you what a DGIT is yet? I hate to say that you sure sound like one, but...

Did I officially make the list of "Dead Guy in Training"?

Do I get a prize?

I'm afraid the prize is not something to be proud of. As for making the list... shrug, only you can say. The tone of your posts here suggests that your pushing beyond your own personal limits though. Limits that from the sounds of it you've not yet established.

[tuffyjensen 0]

Our judicial system does suck, but as a business owner you have the right to refuse anyone's business as long as you are not prejudice such as race, sex, etc. When it deals with safety there is no issue, I don't think it would be prejudice when there is no canopy manufacture that would recommend that type of a canopy with that kind of wing loading at 250 jumps, PERIOD. Stay consistent with the manufacture recommendations and you will not have any issues about liability.

Be Safe and Have Fun, in that order!
Tuffy

[pchapman 261]

One comment was that it is incredible that someone is downsizing after an injury on a high performance canopy.

There can be a legitimate worry about the risk of re-injury and whether someone is 100% healed up or not.

But other than that, there wasn't a big incentive to upsize. The accident wasn't of the type where someone bounces off the ground coming out of a dive or has repeated problems controlling the flare.

I think a lot of people who have flown small canopies have had some minor incident here or there where they scared themselves, and then re-evaluated their flying technique. But there was little to scare the original poster here. There is the possibility that his swoop-slide technique needs refinement, or that the flare was subtly mishandled, both of which could be related to low jump numbers.

Whether good or bad, one can easily compartmentalize this sort of accident and think that it doesn't reflect on one's flying in general, but on a specific type of landing where one made a little mistake or perhaps just got unlucky.

Therefore the original poster might take the accident as a cautionary tale in general, but not be dissuaded from jumping the smaller canopy he had already ordered at the time of the accident.

[D22369 0]

1) you have no biz on that canopy

2) your skills are not as good as you think

3) when you crater yourself not many will care

4) your highly experienced canopy pilots who gave you the green light are asshats

5) --> dude, seen many of you come and go over the last 13 years, your all the same and use the same excuses as to why and what your doing, you listen only to people who stroke your ego and ignore those who dont agree with your being a demigod of the sky. With your choice of canopy you unfortunately have the ability to run down many people on lighter wingloads...

I dont give a shit when someone takes themselves out, thats natural selection.
but I get really pissed off when they succeed in taking someone else with them.

not sure why I am posting this, your just like the others....not listening

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[humanflite 0]

Quote

...

Therefore the original poster might take the accident as a cautionary tale in general, but not be dissuaded from jumping the smaller canopy he had already ordered at the time of the accident.

You make a few valid points... but if this injury wasnt an incentive to upsize.....it certainly wasnt an incentive to downsize

[Zeppo 0]

Quote

1) you have no biz on that canopy

2) your skills are not as good as you think

3) when you crater yourself not many will care

4) your highly experienced canopy pilots who gave you the green light are asshats

5) --> dude, seen many of you come and go over the last 13 years, your all the same and use the same excuses as to why and what your doing, you listen only to people who stroke your ego and ignore those who dont agree with your being a demigod of the sky. With your choice of canopy you unfortunately have the ability to run down many people on lighter wingloads...

I dont give a shit when someone takes themselves out, thats natural selection.
but I get really pissed off when they succeed in taking someone else with them.

not sure why I am posting this, your just like the others....not listening

Roy

1) Ok - Quite the point you make there

2) Compared to you - yes - compared to swoopers - yes. My canopy skills are no-where near that level.

3) So you won't care if I crater myself - then why are you posting here?

4) Have you met them? They're quite good.

5) So they come and go...as in come in a car, leave in a ambulance, or casket? The deaths that I know of regarding a hp canopy involve people not being able to dig themselves out of the corner...so I assume you think that I won't have the judgement to dig myself out. And I don't. That's why i don't swoop this thing. That's far too scary a prospect for me to try with such limited experience.

If you don't care if I die, then don't bother posting here. If you do, then consider actually providing useful information.

To those out there that actually have provided useful information, I appreciate it, and will be taking in into consideration with my training and progression.

What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

The deaths that I know of regarding a hp canopy involve people not being able to dig themselves out of the corner...so I assume you think that I won't have the judgement to dig myself out. And I don't. That's why i don't swoop this thing. That's far too scary a prospect for me to try with such limited experience.

Do you really think you'll never get yourself in a corner on a standard, straight in approach? No one will ever be spacing out and walk in front of you as you are 30 feet off the ground, you'll never need to land out at at the last moment notice that post sticking out of the ground immediately between you and your landing point, the winds will never change as you are making your final approach and startle you, another canopy will never cut you off in your standard box pattern? These are all things you have no control over and may require judgement calls and responses based on experience. Experience you don't have yet, so your judgements may not be ideal and infallable. A bigger canopy will be infinitely more forgiving for those lapses in judgement than a smaller one.

I do care about posters on here, and I will shake my head in sorrow if you get hurt. I'll also get a knot in my stomach if you end up as an instructor, leading by example, and someone else gets hurt by showing the same rash judgment you are thinking that you got away with it so they can too.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Zeppo 0]

Quote

Do you really think you'll never get yourself in a corner on a standard, straight in approach? No one will ever be spacing out and walk in front of you as you are 30 feet off the ground, you'll never need to land out at at the last moment notice that post sticking out of the ground immediately between you and your landing point, the winds will never change as you are making your final approach and startle you, another canopy will never cut you off in your standard box pattern? These are all things you have no control over and may require judgement calls and responses based on experience. Experience you don't have yet, so your judgements may not be ideal and infallable. A bigger canopy will be infinitely more forgiving for those lapses in judgement than a smaller one.

Now that is practical advice.

What goes up, must come DOWN!!!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Either way it ruins jumping for others at the DZ as they have to stop operations after a fatality until the investigation is completed.

Well, yes and no.

On three seperate occasions I've been on Drop Zones where a fatality "just happened". Only in one of those instances, did the DZM/O cease operations for that day. In the two other cases, operations continued.

Quote

5) --> dude, seen many of you come and go over the last 13 years, your all the same and use the same excuses as to why and what your doing, you listen only to people who stroke your ego and ignore those who dont agree with your being a demigod of the sky. With your choice of canopy you unfortunately have the ability to run down many people on lighter wingloads...

I dont give a shit when someone takes themselves out, thats natural selection.
but I get really pissed off when they succeed in taking someone else with them.

not sure why I am posting this, your just like the others....not listening

Roy

Amen brother.

To which I'll add... While I honestly don't wish Zeppo any ill will or injury, I will say that at least as far as I can tell from his posts, he's one of those guys that's "had it all figured out"... even back when he started posting here before or right around the time he went through FJC.

Zeppo, I really hope you survive another 1000+ jumps. If you do, you might then reflect on how little you now know or how little experience you now have. Good luck. If not so good things do come your way, I hope you don't take someone with you.

Can I add another $20 to the board on Zeppo?

[billvon 2,400]

>I do care about posters on here, and I will shake my head in sorrow if you get hurt.

I used to hope that no one like this ever got hurt. That didn't work so well - all too often, I'd see them get crippled or killed, and that hurts everyone in skydiving.

I started noticing something else, though. When people downsized and injured themselves mildly, nothing changed. They'd break their thumbs, or their wrists, or their ankles, and be right back out there making the same mistakes a few months later.

But when someone broke their femur, it would really scare them. Maybe because it takes a much more severe impact, or it's a really ugly noise, or because of the realization that they were close to a fatal impact. Often, these people would learn caution, and become a better skydiver because of that. At least one such person went on to become one of the best swoopers in the world.

So I still hope that people who downsize to a size they've proven they can't handle never get hurt. But barring that, I hope when they do get hurt it's a broken femur - because in my experience, it is an injury that will usually heal well, and may just save their lives.

[D22369 0]

You got me, I do care

and thats why it pisses me off so bad - I keep thinking there has to be a way to get through to people... but words fail, they always fail


People die on fully functional canopy's who do not swoop, they either get into a situation that they are unprepared for or fail to think far enough ahead to keep themselves out of trouble.

with your wingloading you could easily find yourself on final at 200' and a slower canopy your catching up to suddenly starts sashe'ing, with that canopy and W/L you have less options than a larger more forgiving canopy would give you. Imagine a bad spot... landing a small canopy in a backyard or between trees isnt all that much fun.

I am an admitted canopy nazi... too many people are trying to advance too fast
in my opinion, billvons checklist should be completed prior to downsizing

I have taken this entire year off of skydiving to pursue other things, but when I come back I will be flying a much bigger canopy for a weekend or two prior to getting back under my FX

I apologise for the tone of my first post, when you have 10+ years in the sport and have seen people turn themselves into a mangled heap of meat in front of you perhaps then you will understand the frustration - the sound of them hitting is something you never forget...

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Quote

Do you really think you'll never get yourself in a corner on a standard, straight in approach? No one will ever be spacing out and walk in front of you as you are 30 feet off the ground, you'll never need to land out at at the last moment notice that post sticking out of the ground immediately between you and your landing point, the winds will never change as you are making your final approach and startle you, another canopy will never cut you off in your standard box pattern? These are all things you have no control over and may require judgement calls and responses based on experience. Experience you don't have yet, so your judgements may not be ideal and infallable. A bigger canopy will be infinitely more forgiving for those lapses in judgement than a smaller one.

Now that is practical advice.

You hadn't considered any of that prior to downsizing? Your "mentors" didn't mention any of that prior to you downsizing?

[Lonnie 0]

Quote

I have spoken to 3 highly experienced canopy pilots at my DZ (1200 - 2600 jumps) and they all believe that I am capable of flying the canopy, and that it is a much better choice than the sabre. I will continue to get advice from these individuals regarding how to properly fly a high-performance, and even for the last 10 jumps or so, there advice has been quite useful.

Who are the 3 guys you speak of?

It seems there are far more here advising against this, including Fuzzy 6500 jumps (from your DZ) who I know personally and has been around the sport a long time

NEVER GIVE UP!

[skydude2000 3]

This is starting to sound like an intervention. 'Friends don't let friends jump suicidal canopies'

Be Safe Steve,

That's all I got.

PULL!! or DIE!!

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Steve,

Look how many of your friends have posted here. Let's do a count of people that have posted in this thread that PERSONALLY know you and have jumped with you.

Jim S
Chris K
Adam G
Peter C
Fuzzy
Freak
Myself
I may and likely have missed one or 2.

Take a look at this link...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3194504;search_string=ahmed%20kotb;#3194504

Now tell me that someone with thousands of jumps, someone who is HIGHLY current, or someone had the experience to save himself can't make a mistake? You knew Ahmed, you jumped with him, he was your friend. Think how these people that are posting FOR you would feel if the worst did happen to you?

Steve, we've discussed this at length outside of dz.com, but your posts are just making you look like an as$hole. These are people you jump with every weekend, these are people you teach, these are your friends. Jump the canopy for all I care...but don't make yourself out to be an ass. Why are you doing this? Just stop posting your attitude on dz.com, keep jumping the canopy and hope all goes well.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[peregrinerose 0]

Thanks. I'm glad you found it practical advice. I can also tell you that every hypothetical scenario I gave you happened to me, more than once. Add into it a bad case of target fixation (my totally hot husband who landed before me).

My fairly prudent choice of canopies, taking 2 canopy courses so far (#3 to happen the first weekend in Oct), and a damn fine PLF in every situation let me walk away. If any one of those three things was different, I would not have walked away in those scenarios. It would be great if you took those words to heart. Put your smaller canopy in a closet for another few hundred jumps, go with a 150 or 170, gain experience, and then jump your canopy.

The sky will always be there.... it would be great to see you always able bodied and able to play in it instead of sitting on the ground broken and full of what ifs.

Please don't underestimate the effect you have on younger jumpers. To them, 200 jumps is a LOT. They see you succeed on a small elliptical and think they can too. Give a moment of thought to the example you are leading for young jumpers. Your words and actions really do matter.

Best wishes to you, no matter what you decide.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[towerrat 0]

Quote

I think by posting this and by simply reading this thread you have acquired the balls and knowledge to borrow my Xaos 83 which I bought because it was cheaper to buy it than having to spend the money relining my Crossfire2 99, ha ha ha

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever think his retarded downsizing may have something to do with the fucktards he surrounds himself with? If your profile is correct you have 500 jumps yet your jumping a Xaos 83. Fucking brilliant.......................

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

• Quote

[freakflydiver 0]

Englihs is not my first language, but I was being Sarcastic mate.
No offense taken, Although I find it rather inappropriate for you to call me that.
I bought this canopy an an introduction to Xbraced canopies. I went by the book in terms of recommended number of jumps and minimum wing loading. I can say I'm having a lot of fun flying it and I love the openings as a camera flyer. With my light wing loading on it, I don't feel its considerably faster than my 99, but I can see how if could put me or anyone in a bad situation.

I have had a couple of situations yet in which I had to evade canopies and change my course by doing flat turns, but I can't say it has scared me yet. This is a whole new beast and I'm enjoying the learning curve behind it. I'm enjoying each hop&pop, so it's one of those calculated risks versus pleasure deals.

As I read this forum, I can't help but feeling somewhat at fault for my fast downsizing. I don't do it to be cool, I just feel the need for speed and the Xaos gives me just that rush.

I'm considering selling my Xaos and buying yet another XF2 99 since I was having so much fun swooping that canopy anyway and I believe it probably is a better fit and a more conservative canopy.

I do however believe that currency and good coaching as well as practice and a humble attitude towards the sport are what make us good canopy pilots.

My 2 pesos

Freakfly.ca coming soon