Landings ... I am frustrated beyond belief!!!

[shropshire 0]

I guess the problem is that they (ladies) are often told what 6" should look like and generally isn't -


So their ability to visually measure has been corrupted by us.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[zen_mtn_climber 0]

I'm a recent A license guy and have been sticking my landings pretty much perfect since jump 4 or 5. Not trying to rub it in or anything but seeing all this talk of people's difficulties landing I've tried to understand why I've had no problem.

I think the one major thing that's really helped me is my ability to judge my height off the ground. I'm a long time rock climber and even longer time semi-extreme skiier. I've been jumping off cliffs on skis for half my life. I know what 20 ft off the ground, 10ft off the ground, 5 ft off the ground really looks like. Pretty much ingrained in my soul. So I've been quite successful in timing my flare at the proper height.

I'd say, get ahold of an old mattress or two and throw them down out in the yard. Then get a 10 ft ladder and stand at the top of it . . practice standing at the top and looking down . . jump off it lots of times onto the mattresses, get used to what your feet being 10 ft, 5ft off the ground really looks like. Work on building a mental sense of how high up 5-10ft off the ground really looks and feels. When you jump off the ladder, don't look down at your feet . . look ahead toward the mattresses to train yourself to keep looking ahead during landing . . basically trying to simulate your landings as best as possible.

Other piece of advice from my AFF instructors that helped some was if you are flaring too high, as most do, when your brain starts screaming at you to flare, say a quick mantra of "oh shit, oh shit, oh shit" then flare. Basically try to compensate for your brain sending the flare message too early.

Good luck,
K

[dks13827 2]

zen is right on............. Oly get the radio on, have the instructor call to you... 50,,,40,,,30,,,,,15,,, flare... like the shuttle guys learn to land.

[Bolas 5]

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O...you might have a rigger look at your line trim and brake line length.

Something that really scares me about this is you saying you were starting your flare very high. If this continues to happen, make sure you are close enough to the ground before you finish your flare, so you don't stall the canopy high and cause a really, really bad landing.

Jon

Most modern canopies generally won't stall, but that bring up a good point.

Find your exact stall point up high. (no pun intended)

Above 3000 feet (or higher if you prefer) bury the toggles down as far as they go and see if the canopy stalls. If it does, just slowly let up on the toggles some and it will recover.

If it doesn't stall, wrap the brake lines around your hands once and try to stall it again. Keep wrapping and trying until it does. If you wrap enough, you can make your end cells touch and go back into freefall. It sounds scary but once you let up it recovers and you know exactly where your canopy totally stalls out as well as know what it doe prior to that point.
You do this up high so if there are any issues, you have plenty of time to address them. Also doing it high gives your arms a chance to rest prior to landing. To further rest them practice weight shift turns until in the pattern. At 1:1 or less you'll prolly hafta lean hard and the turn will be slow but it should work.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[dks13827 2]

when the Para Plane first came out.. the big danger was letting your buddy jump it !! Some guys on their first jump.. flared to a complete stop at 15 to 20 feet... then let up on the toggles quickly which surged the canopy right straight into the ground. Don't think anyone was killed but it sure got the word out fast,, dont do that !!! Whenever I sold a new Strato Star to someone.. he got a thorough briefing..then he went to 7,500 and did a hop and pop. then I stood out in the landing area and would signal the flare time to him... of course, he had watched hundreds of landings before that day. At little Cessna DZ's, everyone is always outside, watching every exit, every freefall, every landing.. that kind of knowledge was priceless, IMO.

[TheCaptain 2]

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I did some one-on-on coaching with Luigi Cani at Perris ... we concentrated just on my landings. I was shocked to see the video of how high I would start my flare (somewhere between 40 and 80 feet). I got better at bringing that lower after the first 2 - 3 jumps ... now I think the issue of not finishing my flare is what remains. On light wind days, I think I'm not "agressive" enough and I hit the ground before I get a chance to finish pulling down my toggles ...

O

If this is truely the case I would suggest finding a canopy coach and spending a weekend with them to get this figured out. IMHO no one in these forums can come close to helping you ( that is without seeing video of your landings and working one on one with you)as much as someone as good as Lugi did. I would also think if you are starting your flare that high you are not looking to the horizon but looking down.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[dks13827 2]

Oly you got dozens of great responses !!

[OlympiaStoica 0]

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Oly you got dozens of great responses !!

Well ... it looks like I'll be doing just that ... this week. Venting my frustration here was a great idea after all
O

[billvon 2,400]

>After the first jump, he shortened the breaks 4 inches. I’m not an expert,
>but I’m told that’s a significant amount.

Depends on how long your arms (and risers) are!

Often canopy brake line length is set a little long because 1) brake lines shrink with time, 2) too-short brake lines are a much worse problem than too-long brake lines, 3) most people can generate a good stroke even with half a foot of slack, 4) the distance from guidering to line attach point is not the same in all risers (although it should be) and 5) for high performance landings you need the extra slack (so front riser deflection does not cause brake deflection.)

The worst case is long brake lines, short risers, short arms and big canopy. With that combination, you can reduce your flare stroke to the point where landing becomes a problem.

>What is my point? Everyone assumed I’m an idiot.

I don't think anyone is assuming you're an idiot. Your problem is a common one, and has affected people from new jumpers to world record holders. Fortunately it's solvable; people here have given a lot of good options.

[chuckakers 370]

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I have been in the sport for one year, I got 138 jumps … I still can’t get decent landings in all wind conditions. I currently jump a PD Storm 190 with a wing loading of almost 1:1. I have just returned to jumping after a two month layoff, as I was recovering from a broken ankle (yep … on a botched landing ).

Skydiving has helped me heal from a broken heart and has brought me much happiness. I would feel a deep sense of loss (and failure) if I had to quit … Another injury (and if I continue to land the way I do, it is only a matter of time before that happens), I will probably give this up for reason of lacking ability ...

The Saturday before this one … winds were light and variable, which is usually a bad thing, as my canopy has a lot of speed and is very “ground hungry”, but I had 5 awesome landings. I got radio help on the first 2 (my DZ has been very supportive) … that gave me confidence and ended up doing very well on the next 3.

This past Saturday … winds were light and variable again … 3 crash landings, 2 of them pretty bad. I don’t understand why I take one step forward … and five steps backwards. At this point, I’m considering upsizing my canopy and perhaps switching to something more docile. That may or may not help … if I can be helped at all ...

O

At 1:1 and over 100 jumps, you should have landings dialed in by now. You didn't give us much information about what you think you're doing wrong, so it's tough to give you advise.

Are you flaring too high? This is pretty typical for younger jumpers as they tend to get more of a ground rush becasue of the forward speed during light winds.

Have you made sure your brake settings are correct. If they are too short, you are dragging the brakes in full flight, which will reduce the power of the flare. If they are too long, you won't get a full flare. Can you stall the canopy and if so, where's the stall point relative to your body (hips, waist, ribs)?

Have you tried having someone video your landings? You can learn a lot from seeing what your doing from "outside" your own visuals.

Have you worked with someone at the DZ? If so, what do they say you are wrong?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skybytch 259]

Don't give up, get more help!! If I can learn to land standing on my feet, you can too.

Take a canopy control course!!!

If that's not possible, find someone with a video camera (not hard) who is willing to stand in the landing area and video a few of your landings (a bit more difficult). Then have someone who knows something (an AFFI, perhaps, although the piece of paper is no guarantee that they know anything) debrief your flare technique using the video.

There are a couple things that you can try that may help with the mental block side of things. The biggest one is to do some jumps focused solely on canopy control - hop and pops, from whatever altitude. Removing the distractions of what you just did in freefall will help you focus on what you need to work on under canopy.

Visualize your perfect pattern and perfect flare that lead to a perfect landing, just like you visualize what you're going to do in freefall.

Practice your flare several times focusing on finishing it - the finish is where your canopy bleeds off the forward speed that may be scaring you. Flare once looking up at the canopy, once looking out at a 45 degree angle andonce with your eyes closed to "feel" the sweet spot and the finish, above pattern entry altitude, on every jump.

As you turn to final, say - OUT LOUD - "Relax!" Do the same just before flare time.

Be ready to stand up, physically and mentally. One foot in front of the other, ready to take a step or two, works far better than trying to "stick it" with both feet hitting at the same time. Allow yourself to risk standing it up instead of reverting to what has become your standard controlled crash.

[Baksteen 84]

I currently jump a Storm 190 at 1.2

What was your previous canopy? I used to jump a Spectre and I found that compared to that, a Storm of equal size has a lot more forward speed and loses more altitude, while turns are snappier.

1) Ask a friendly instructor to go over PLFs with you again and practice them under the instructor's supervision.
Come in on all jumps expecting to PLF and DO SO even if you think afterwards that you totally could have stood that up. There's no shame in PLFing. Work your way back to trying to stand your landing up after you get your confidence back.
DO NOT land on your butt! If you misjudge it, your spine will have to take the impact.

2) Somewhere upthread TheCaptain (?) recommended the 'two stage flare'. If you're going to try that, first find the exact toggle position (up high) that you actually start giving input to the canopy. With mine that's around neck level (I like this brake setting). What works for me (but for you it might be different) is to 'plane out' using only the slightest toggle input (shoulder level) and then gently finish the flare as far as my arms will go down. Again, do not do it this exact way! Find out together with the canopy coach what works for you and stick to that. He'll see you land, I don't

3) The canopy in the factory setup has a lot of flare power at the very bottom end of the flare. You mentioned your brake lines were shortened 4 inches. As Bolas recommended, try and see up high whether you can stall the canopy by 'simply flaring it'. I'm not a huge fan of taking steering line wraps, but that's a different discussion and not relevant for finding the flare point. Just make sure (up high) that you're not stalling the canopy while landing - you wouldnt be the first one.

4) You are going to take another canopy course. Good! In preparation, like Skybytch said, get video of your landings, so that your coach has something to work with. It'll help them tuning their advice to you.
Afterwards, dedicate as many jumps (hop 'n pops) as necessary to dialling in the advice you got. Leave off polishing up your freefall skills for later. That's less things to think about on the ride up.

Good luck; don't give up!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[OlympiaStoica 0]

I jumped a Safire 2 209 before this canopy - I hated the openings ... (and the landings.)

O

[pchapman 261]

Too long brake lines?

It has already been suggested that someone else to test the canopy (not doing accelerated landings), and to test the stall point yourself.

You can also have a look at the brake lines while flying. How bowed out are they at full flight? How many inches do you have to pull them down before you start actually deflecting the tail of the canopy?

While that doesn't say anything about the stall point with your length of arms, it is a guide to how the brakes are set up.

Every jumper should be aware of that slack amount on every canopy they fly, but many are not and haven't looked or thought about it.

It is surprising nobody at the dz mentioned the possibility that the brake settings could be the issue, but they may have assumed that factory settings were used and should be sufficient, because it is a brand new canopy. (What does PD do with new canopies? Mark a suggested toggle point? Does it tend to be on the long side to avoid being on the short side?)

If people were saying 'you weren't flaring all the way', one has to distinguish whether they just noticed the resulting bad landing and assumed that was the problem, or actually saw your arm position on landing (whether or not the brake setting are correct or not).

Like other answers, "Get video!" too.

[OlympiaStoica 0]

Pchapman ... if you read upthread ... yes, it was already determined that my break lines were too long ... they got shortened after a rigger jumped it while I was away recovering from breaking my ankle ...

O

[pchapman 261]

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Pchapman ... if you read upthread ... yes, it was already determined that my break lines were too long ...
O

No problem, I saw that. I just meant that in general, jumpers should learn to detect that sort of thing themselves. For example, how much slack is there in the brake lines now?

Peter

[OlympiaStoica 0]

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Pchapman ... if you read upthread ... yes, it was already determined that my break lines were too long ...
O

No problem, I saw that. I just meant that in general, jumpers should learn to detect that sort of thing themselves. For example, how much slack is there in the brake lines now?

Peter

My new Storm had a lot of slack in the break lines and very "mushy" (soft) toggle pressure, but I didn't know enough to determine that to be "abnormal". Right now there is very little slack, if any ... the canopy feels and flies differently ... I feel like I have to "re-learn" how to handle it ...

O

[buff 0]

Canopy course - did you really understand what was presented and how the wing flys in different modes?

If so, I would go up high with someone else and fly close proximity, think no contact RW, and use them as a reference flying next to you. Get on the same level as the other canopy and go to 1/4 brake, 1/2 brake, 3/4 brake while watching them. You should then get an idea of what your wing is doing.

You want to get an idea of where the "sweet spot is", the amount of control you input to plane the canopy out and convert vertical descent into horizontal flight.

Then wash, rise, repeat. Dialing in the sweet spot is the first thing I'd figure out. From there, I work out the slow flight modes. Add more input and see how the wing flys. Do it all up high and then translate it to your landing sequence.

Like Billvon said, it's not really a do A then do B thing. You want to transition to horizonal flight at some acceptable height above the surface and then keep the canopy flying by adding inputs while it bleeds off speed and touches you down. The sweet spot is just a baseline and where it is depends on conditions, lower in the stroke on no-wind days and higher on windy days. I think if you work this out and get video and dissect you landings, they will improve as well as your confidence.


My 2cents worth ...standard Dizzy disclaimers apply.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[d123 1]

This is an interresting subject.

What kills more the horizontal velocity in the process of flare? Is it the higher induced drag from the new angle of attack or is it the extra parasite drag that comes from deforming the tail?

If its mostly the induced drag then shortening the brake lines will help just like a braked aproach helps it slows down the speed so you can judge better. But this can be done without shortening the brake lines. One can do a braked aproach on its own and its fun to do.
On the other hand *everybody* insisting on "finish your flare" which means that the extra parasite drag from tail deformation plays a significant job! If this is true people with short hands will never get good landings because they just cant deform the tail enough so shortening the brakes makes sense.

Does it makes any sense to you guys?

Edit to add: I'm not talking about the vertical speed because a simple half brake snaped fast it will level you off. On my old Spectre anyway!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[billvon 2,400]

>What kills more the horizontal velocity in the process of flare? Is it the
>higher induced drag from the new angle of attack or is it the extra
>parasite drag that comes from deforming the tail?

Both, I think.

>On the other hand *everybody* insisting on "finish your flare"
>which means that the extra parasite drag from tail deformation plays a
>significant job!

Well, "finishing the flare" increases both lift and drag, thus slowing you down _and_ keeping you off the ground for another second or so.

Flaring is a _very_ complicated process, because there are really three things causing lift:

1) Dynamic/pendulum effects. When you brake the canopy, you slow it down and you "pendulum" beneath it, causing an AOA change and more lift.

2) Trailing edge deformation. Pulling the tail down, even if nothing else changes, will increase lift and drag.

3) Relative wind changes. As you level out, the relative wind changes from coming at you at a 20 degree angle to coming straight at you - and THAT changes how the wing flies too!

[d123 1]

> Both, I think.

I think you're right. Here's my experience:
On my old spectre, in no wind, when I land on rears (keeping the parasite drag to a minimum) the finish horizontal speed is almost 1.7x (based on my feeling) higher than on toggle landings. That 1.7x factor I see it as the effect of the parasite drag from tail deformation. The diference in air speed from full flight to end horizontal speed in the RR landing is the effect of induced drag (but I don't feel that diference because I'm too high to feel it when I start the flare).

One thing that I know is that our modern canopies have a lot of lift. I'm jumping a Silhouette 210 (as a transition to Sabre2 190) and in no wind I'm amazed with how much longer the flare is from full flight. I'm able to fly parallel with the ground for 2 sec and I had a safe vertical speed for landing 1 sec before going level. The only thing that is wild is the horizontal speed. If you're not in your element baling out at high speed it might be tricky and you might hurt your ankle considering you're body is tilted like this / at the end of the flare.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[TheBachelor 4]

Just a note on brake line length on the Storm. When I got my Storm, I thought the lines were way too long. I found several references from PD, saying they were that way by design. Once such reference is in this document: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/StormCFStormFAQFlightCharacteristics.PDF.

I left mine the original length, and they're fine. Then I got a Sabre2 as a second canopy, and there is a huge difference. They turn and flare differently, but I left them both at the factory-delivered line lengths.

All of that being said, it makes sense that arm length would play a part in it...

I've also heard various suggetions on improving landings. One that I can think of is to look further out in front of you. It's supposed to help with your depth perception. Since you're really nervous about it, I'd think that using radios would be helpful. Hopefully as you do some successful landings, you get the visual picture in your head of what it should look like when you begin your flares.

I know it's discouraging. I hope you stick with it (and don't further injure yourself.)

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[mdrejhon 8]

I screamed at my instructor (back in 2005) on my first jump after my canopy brakes got relined -- there was 7 inches of slack line in my Sabre 170 rig, when beforehand, it was already causing tail deflection at the loops. It may have been to factory specifications, but the rest of the canopy lines were still old, which means they were shrunken relative to the new in-spec brake lines, and thus, I had now-unexpected flare behaviour.

I did not hurt myself on landings, but they were "dicey". Still standups, a tumble or two.

The moral of the story I learned was:

(1) Find the start of your flare hand posiiton
Preposition your hands at the start of taut brake lines. Raise your arms, then pull down until brake lines feel taut, and beginning to deflect your tail. That's where you should hold at while landing to begin your flare. Loose brake line is useless, don't raise your arms as high as possible; it can be dangerous when there's extra brake lines.

(2) Find the end of your flare position
Needs to be tested during flare test after opening, if your airspace is clear. At high altitude, it's a good idea to do a stall position test. I do this on almost every new canopy I try out or demo (Safire2 149, Pilot 150, Sabre 150, Sabre2 150, PD143 Optmium, etc). This determines the bottom end of my flare.

Flaring isnt really "start at the brake stops at the top and flare to full arm extension" -- but "start where the brake line feels taut, and flare dynamically based on how I'm planing out to the ground, then one second before it looks like I'm about to touchdown, do a final punch down of brakes to finish the flare."

Since then, I've safely landed canopies even with 8 inches of excess brake lines, and I very rarely tumble (Even on downwind landings).

Flaring now feels exactly the same regardless of whether there's excess brake line. It's important to unlearn the bad habit of raising arms as high as possible to begin a flare --

However, there are times when the excess lines begin to significantly reduce the flare band (by putting the end of the flare out of your arm's full reach), so it's best to shorten brake lines if there's too much loose brake line with no tail deflection.

[Sangi 0]

I'm flying an old 195 Falcon right now, which has really shit flaring power, but I don't have any problems with it in no wind or windy conditions (I'm very lightweight though, I weigh around ~140 lbs without gear)...

I can only talk for myself and it's really all in the timing (at least for me) of the flare. Depending on the canopy off course, most new canopies need a 2 staged flare, while old ones like Falcon (or any student canopies) need a good timed 1 stage flare.. Landing on a relatively windy day into wind is by far the best in terms of a soft landing..

I've tried a few down winders with my old 195 Falcon, I was doing a 2 staged flare, which is kinda wrong with that canopy I guess.. First down winder was a real slammer to my feet and hit hurt real good (this damn old canopy doesn't flare for shit), but I managed to outrun it, the second one hurt as much as the first, but at the very end of my run I slipped and slammed on my butt lol...

You can check out one of my many landings here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpLEeuLvm5w

There's also a landing filmed in one of my jumps on a 190 Briz (russian canopy which is basically a copy of spectre) doing a 2 staged flare, but not really finishing it properly though.. http://www.vimeo.com/5534479

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[fred 0]

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What works for me (but for you it might be different) is to 'plane out' using only the slightest toggle input (shoulder level) and then gently finish the flare as far as my arms will go down. Again, do not do it this exact way! Find out together with the canopy coach what works for you and stick to that. He'll see you land, I don't
Is it really a 2-stage flare? Since getting off radio, I've always done more of a "continuous" flare. There's no real distinction between when I'm planing out and when I'm bleeding speed. Would it be better if I tried to divide it into these two moves? I would like to lose more horizontal speed in low winds, but don't really know how or if it's possible. Should I flare more aggressively at first to level off, then pause, and work on the second stage to lose more forward speed?

I've had great landings, but usually have to run it out.

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