Used Reserves

[woodpecker 0]

About once a month a thread gets started on "what should I buy for my first rig" and everyone gives the same speech.......used v/s new......etc.

Now on this last thread I noticed that no one is recommending a used reserve. Is there a reason for this? I would like to hear both sides to this one. Why its ok and what to look for and whats your life worth...why would you buy a used reserve. LOL

All replies welcome...

Billy

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[MB38 0]

A used reserve is effectively another way to save money on a rig that the jumper will most likely downsize from within a few hundred jumps. A reserve with a handful of repacks and maybe a low speed deployment or two will still have years worth of squares open.

The life of a reserve is much more finite than the life of a main. Every time a reserve is repacked, a square on the canopy's warning label is marked. It will be marked differently depending on the type of repack [standard repack, low speed deployment, terminal deployment]. Once all those squares are filled up, the reserve is dead and may not be used as a reserve canopy again. Period.

A main will effectively be used until it is deemed unairworthy by a rigger. There isn't really an age that a main hits where it immediately goes from being a viable lifesaving device to a tarp.

So a used reserve - one with enough squares open that it will be usable to the purchaser - is a good idea. That reserve is theoretically the same [read: just as effective as a last-ditch lifesaving device] as a brand new reserve... it just doesn't have as much life [read: repacks] left. Why pay for life that you aren't going to use on your first rig? Save that money and go used.

[disclaimer: this post is full of shit]

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[mattjw916 2]

I have one 6 year old used (PD176R) and one new (R-Max148) reserve... each one will be inspected the same way by my rigger and hopefully they will both work just fine if I ever deploy them. Personally, I'd never buy a reserve that had any rides on it unless it was inspected prior to purchase though. A used reserve, that has never been deployed, I'd just have inspected and packed without stressing about it and be happy I saved some money. YMMV.

If you feel like you _need_ a new reserve in your container for peace of mind, then by all means buy one. That means more used reserves for the market in the future.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[TheMonkey 0]

i've owned 2 used reserves, though neither had a ride on them... had a reserve ride on one, no problem (other than i lost a handle). personally, i don't see a problem if it hasn't had a ride and is inspected by a rigger (granted it is not really old)....

---------------------
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[woodpecker 0]

Never knew about the squares. So when a reserve is repacked....if their are no more squares available, the rigger will consider the canopy not-airworthy...correct? Or will the rigger still go through with the repack and oh well.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[councilman24 36]

FYI

Your somewhat misinformed. First, the repack and deployment limits imposed by the "boxes" are unique to Performance Designs reserves. No other manufacturer imposes a life limit.

Second, the reserve may or may not be dead "when the boxes are full". It has to go back to PD for evaluation. It may or may not be deemed airworthy.

It looks like you might be better asking questions than answering them

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[wmw999 2,150]

I believe only PD reserves have quite that finite a life in terms of pack jobs, and even then when you reach the end you mail it in to the factory for them to inspect it. I don't know how that might extend its life.

Some reserves have a finite life in years (GQ Security comes to mind), and some riggers won't pack anything more than (x) years old (usually 20 years).

Any reserve (particularly used, but also new) that you buy should be inspected. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a reserve with rides on it as long as it came with an inspection, or I could send it back if I or my rigger didn't like its looks.

Most people don't immediate get rid of a reserve that they had a ride on, after all. They keep jumping with it in their container.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[MB38 0]

Quote

FYI

Your somewhat misinformed. First, the repack and deployment limits imposed by the "boxes" are unique to Performance Designs reserves. No other manufacturer imposes a life limit.

Second, the reserve may or may not be dead "when the boxes are full". It has to go back to PD for evaluation. It may or may not be deemed airworthy.

It looks like you might be better asking questions than answering them

My apologies. When the procedure was explained to me it was explained with a PDR as an example. I didn't mean to pass on incorrect information, I assumed what I was told was the truth. It's tough to know when to ask more questions when the answers are not always correct... but you are right.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Every time a reserve is repacked, a square on the canopy's warning label is marked. It will be marked differently depending on the type of repack [standard repack, low speed deployment, terminal deployment]. Once all those squares are filled up, the reserve is dead and may not be used as a reserve canopy again. Period.

Not quite.

My understanding is that PD is the only mfg that has the boxes to be marked at each repack with a slash, or an X for actual use. After 40 repacks or 25 deployments, PD requires an inspection, after which it may be returned to service with a new set of boxes, the number of which depend on PD's judgement.

See page 5 of the manual:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve_manual.pdf

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[councilman24 36]

See first reply about "squares".

Only PD imposes a service limit with mandatory reinspection. No other manufacturer nor the FAA imposes a life limit in the U.S.

Many riggers impose their own "comfort" limit. We are magicians. We can apply very limited testing to a canopy to determine it's degradation due to age. We can visually inspect and pull test fabric, but thats about all we can do in the field. This doesn't measure degradation in performance due to changes in permiability of the fabric, strength of support tapes, strength of thread, strength of lines, etc. Visually we can look for the obvious, tears, stains, fading, and the not so obvious, stress in seams, appearance of fabric compared to new, feel of fabric compared to new. These are all subjective. Many riggers don't want to pack anything older than twenty years. Some use 15 and some use 25. Some will pack gear of any age depending on condition.

About the oldest sport square reserves I pack at the moment (that are brought to me) are early ninties Glide Path, now Free Flite. A few years ago I serviced an early 80's 5 cell para flite swift, but was trying real hard to talk the guy into something newer. He decided, for other reasons, to quit for the time. The early 90's Glide Paths are getting pretty limp. I test them more extensively and plan on starting to recommend replacement. When will I stop doing them? I'm not sure.

There is nothing wrong with buying a used reserve. Many reserves have never been deployed. But you can consider one with one or two deployments flight tested. Just packing DOES degrade the performance of the reserve over time. Enough to care? Probably not for many years. Do go back into the 80's or earlier. Stick with 7 cell swifts, super raven or newer, tempos, PD's, strong, and others. Many skydivers and riggers have personnal preferences or dislikes that you'll hear about. You can chose to accept them or not.

The biggest concern you should have about your reserve is having one correctly sized. Notice I didn't say for your experience. The right size is the right size for your size. Many people now push that limit or simply ignore it for the sake of having a small rig that fit's their 99 or 89 canopy. And most get away with it, some don't.

But buying a used rig that meets your reserve size needs and main skill level is not a bad choice. Then when ready, peddle it to the next newbie and buy your next rig to down size.

Of course it's these rigs that have been through 4 or 5 owners on the DZ that are starting to show their age and getting close to their service life.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

The answer you got was mostly correct, for PD's.

I've been jumping for 28 years and rigging for 25, but I still learn something new almost every day. And learn that something I thought I knew wasn't quite right.

Along with the fact that even the FAA can't agree on what some of their regulations mean, you can't stop asking.

Blue ones,

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Quote

Some reserves have a finite life in years (GQ Security comes to mind), and some riggers won't pack anything more than (x) years old (usually 20 years).

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy (shaking head slowly)

Now your really going to confuse the youngsters bringing up Security!

For those reading this, Wendy is refering to a brand of round reserves that were popular with skydivers before squares and also used widely by pilots.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Now on this last thread I noticed that no one is recommending a used reserve. Is there a reason for this? I would like to hear both sides to this one. Why its ok and what to look for and whats your life worth...why would you buy a used reserve. LOL

Look at DZ's classifieds for used mains. Then look for used reserves.

There's virtually no inventory in the latter, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a PDR or Smart in a size remotely appropriate for me.

Makes the decision easy enough.

[councilman24 36]

Yeah but go look at the containers. Many/most have reserves in them. Once you get a H/C and reserve paired up there isn't much incentive to part them out.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,435]

>A main will effectively be used until it is deemed unairworthy by a rigger.

Hmm. Generally mains are used until:

1. They blow up
2. The user gets sick of their decreasing performance
3. The user gets something new.

Riggers rarely "ground" mains, as no one needs a rigger's approval to jump a given main. I suppose a rigger could destroy a jumper's main so he couldn't use it again, but most riggers won't do that.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

But you can consider one with one or two deployments flight tested.

This is why I actually prefer my reserves used. One deployment on them so I know they work.
Then I'm going to have my rigger(s) inspect it before every time they pack it into my rig, and that makes me happy.

Oh, and I like white as a reserve color because it looks good and I figure it should make it easier to see if the original flight-inspection (i.e. deployment and landing) caused any problem such as bleeding.

I agree with someone else that finding a used reserve in the size, color, brand, number of deployments, and age is difficult. So sometimes you have to be flexible.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

A
The life of a reserve is much more finite than the life of a main. Every time a reserve is repacked, a square on the canopy's warning label is marked.

If it was made by Performance designs.

Quote

Once all those squares are filled up, the reserve is dead and may not be used as a reserve canopy again. Period.

Nope. Once you have gone through FORTY pack jobs or TWENTY FIVE deployments the canopy has to be shipped back to PD for inspection.

That's 13 years if you stick to the 120 day legally mandated US repack cycle and never let it sit on the shelf (as over-sized used gear does).

It's 40 years if you conform to PD's maximum approved repack and inspection interval.

[faulknerwn 37]

Exactly! I think a ride just breaks a reserve in right :-) One of my Tempo's has 8 rides on it - I feel more comfortable with it now than when it was new - its like an old friend...

I've actually had to use a reserve that was older than I was - one made in 1969.. It still worked fine, although I'd recommend more modern squares :-)

Nothing to be afraid of with used reserves - most people just sell them with the container and not separately.

W

[riggerrob 561]

Quote

Quote

Some reserves have a finite life in years (GQ Security comes to mind), and some riggers won't pack anything more than (x) years old (usually 20 years).

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy (shaking head slowly)

Now your really going to confuse the youngsters bringing up Security!

For those reading this, Wendy is referring to a brand of round reserves that were popular with skydivers before squares and also used widely by pilots.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Close ... but GQ Security actually built three generations of reserves.
First came the Lopos in the 1960s and 1970s, then
Scurity Aero Conicals (all grounded - at least temporarily - by the acid mesh Service Bulletins). The first tow generations were round.

Finally Security introduced their X210R - square reserve - shortly before they closed the factory doors in 1984. X210Rs were one of the few diaper-deployed square reserves. I have only repacked one or two X210Rs.

All this is trivial because GQ Security says not to repack any of their American-made reserves anymore.

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi Terry,

A couple of thoughts:

I think the Amigo has some type of repack/life limit in which it has to back to the factory for inspection. Not many of them around so not a lot is known about them.

Glide Path is now Flight Concepts; Free Flight
(maker of the Amigo) is owned by Gary Douris out in Lk. Elsinore.

Jerry

[councilman24 36]

Yep,

Got the name wrong. So used to packing Gary's stuff in softies that I almost always type free flight instead of flight concepts. Oops.

Didn't know the amigo had a service life. I'll have to see if I can find that because I have a DZO widow friend with one for sale.

(still blushing)

Just an example of what advice on the internet is worth.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RIGGER 0]

Quote

Your somewhat misinformed. First, the repack and deployment limits imposed by the "boxes" are unique to Performance Designs reserves. No other manufacturer imposes a life limit.

The repacks/deployments limit are not a Service Life limit. It is a STOP mark for the owner & the rigger to sent it back for the mfg. inspection to find out if the canopy still meets the TSO standarts. The canopy might be approved for service or might be grounded.

The PDF Techno R & the Sky Systems S.A Decelerator R have the same limits as PD, the Techno does not have the box systems on the label but the Decelerator have the same PD box system.

The Amigo R have a limit of 5 deployments & after that must be shipped back for mfg. inspection.
There is no box system.

The Smart R have a limit of 20 repacks or 10 deployments which after that must be shipped to the mfg. There is no box system.

For the Reserve canopies without the box system the info. must be on the packing card. Same rule for any reserve.

When buying a used reserve with the box system, the packing card & the boxes must show the same packing/deployments information.

There is a Safety reason for the limits.

I hope this helps.

Safe Rigging !!!

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

The PDF Techno R & the Sky Systems S.A Decelerator R have the same limits as PD, the Techno does not have the box systems on the label but the Decelerator have the same PD box system.

The Amigo R have a limit of 5 deployments & after that must be shipped back for mfg. inspection.
There is no box system.

The Smart R have a limit of 20 repacks or 10 deployments which after that must be shipped to the mfg. There is no box system.

Where is this information found?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mark 104]

Quote

For the Reserve canopies without the box system the info. must be on the packing card.

Good stuff to know.

What should I do if I get such a reserve but without a packing card?

Mark

[RIGGER 0]

Techno R: packing manual page 22.

Decelerator R: on the canopy label + boxes.

Amigo R: manual page 10.

Smart R: manual page 23.

I hope this helps.

Safe Rigging !!!