Where will we get engineers?

[ryoder 1,381]

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So why am I being attacked on a personal level here? I point out some basic facts regarding economics, compensation and what others on the CNN link have pointed out and I get attacked on a personal level?
Look I may not agree with you but maybe I'm mature enough to not attack you on a personal level thus I would appreciate the same level of respect.
Thank you.

Shah,
Don't you remember that kid in school who was always the brunt of the teasing
because there was just something about him that made him so much fun to tease?
We'll here, you're that kid.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[shah269 0]

If you read what I have written you will notice I have stated that ithe above written were my experiences and my thoughts. If you take them personally....what am I to do. Change my life and my experiences to better fit your life and what you agree with?

I'm sorry you disagree with my past and my tastes. But you don't see me degrade your choices and your life.

Yes I did not enjoy my years of engineering school but as I stated due to my station...similar to what was discussed in the article....my choices were limited. Now that I stand back and examine I question was I t worth it. And doing some basic economic and social review. I agree with the article and thus taking a the defense and asking some very hard questions to very knee-jerk posts.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

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Shah,
Don't you remember that kid in school who was always the brunt of the teasing
because there was just something about him that made him so much fun to tease?
We'll here, you're that kid.

I never played or cared to play such games.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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I'm sorry you disagree with my past and my tastes. But you don't see me degrade your choices and your life.

Remind me where I degraded you for yours? I was talking about your rhetorical style, not the viewpoints it represented.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kallend 1,622]

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So why am I being attacked on a personal level here?.

Because you ask for it, over and over and over and over again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

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I'm sorry you disagree with my past and my tastes. But you don't see me degrade your choices and your life.

Remind me where I degraded you for yours? I was talking about your rhetorical style, not the viewpoints it represented.

At the moment I could say I liked chocolate and beer and you would take it personally get pissed and some one would post a snide remark about the fact it was maybe milk chocolate and not dark chocolate.

Read what I wrote, I referenced my experience and more or less asked two questions. Was it worth it and why. I did not attack anyone's life or current station.

And for the record nutella and blue moon

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Squeak 17]

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If you read what I have written you will notice I have stated that ithe above written were my experiences and my thoughts. If you take them personally....what am I to do. Change my life and my experiences to better fit your life and what you agree with?
.

Here's my reccomendation, worth the money you paid for it.

Get the Fuck over yourself and start Living instead of complaining.

Your life is where it is and what it is because of YOU and YOUR choices, STFU about it and change what you dont like.
Seriously dude, stop being a whiney fucker and start making positive chnages.
Stay OFF Dizzy and any other boards you moan on, for a few months make those changes and come back with a positive story.


MY LIFE ROCKS,
Because I choose to make it ROCK

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[shah269 0]

http://www.deviantart.com/download/139348099/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH.jpg

http://johnsifferman.com/img/epic_facepalm.jpg

http://www.3hatscommunications.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/ImpliedFacepalm.jpeg

Really?
The discussion was about an article.
Some agreed with my points others did not.
And then for some reason it started becoming a "Shah bashing thread"
At which point I having a back bone stood up and said.

http://www.myspaceantics.com/images/myspace-graphics/funny-pictures/glass-of-stfu.jpg

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

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Remind me where I degraded you for yours? .

Really?
Look I'm just going to note that and not even respond.
Wow....you would argue with me if I said it was partly sunny.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[dks13827 2]

I see the point... I have studied this and thought about it a lot, for a long long time... Pretend we just now wanted to start a space flight program and had no experience... and build up to a lunar landing ?? or build a space shuttle at some point ??? Holy cow !! I dont see success for that scenario.... or maybe... we could do some of that stuff, but with great great difficulty. ( way more than the guys in the 60's and 70's had. )

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Maybe you'd like people who can't handle math and science, and who can't solve difficult problems, to be designing the planes you and your family fly on, the bridges you and your family drive over, the power plants that deliver the electricity to your home...

On the whole I'd prefer the people who can't do the difficult stuff to enter marketing, sales, or real estate.

I did not mention you, did my statement strike a nerve?

The most brilliant people I have ever met or known are actually some very humble and kind people.

You would never hear them say a harsh word, they do not seek to belittle others to make themselves feel important.

As far as being good in math and sciences there are quite a few very gifted and extremely accomplished people with more than one PhD and they are actually nice people.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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So why am I being attacked on a personal level here?.

Because you ask for it, over and over and over and over again.

No it is because you like to put others down to make yourself feel better and more important.

Shah actually has a very good chance to get laid by a female, he just needs a positive attitude.

[billvon 2,391]

>.but every time I read "It's hard because it has to be..."

Let me put it this way - if you want a really good education, it's hard. If you don't want that, it doesn't have to be.

My roommate freshman year worked his ass off for two years straight and barely managed C's. (around a 3.0 out of a 5 scale.) After two years he quit and went to an easier school. There's nothing wrong with that, and last I heard he was quite happy with his life. Did he get as good an education? No, but that's not everything.

It's all in what you want out of school. Want to make six figures without having to go to college? An air traffic controller can make that. Want an easier college degree? There are plenty of liberal arts degrees if that's what you want. An MBA will give you good job opportunities without all the drudgery of an engineering degree. If you want those things, great.

Heck, if you want to be an engineer but don't like the coursework, go to DeVry or Phoenix. You can get an associate's degree in two years, or in four years of night school while you do something fun during the day. Heck, you can even get a degree on line if you don't want to face the "hazing" as you call it. I have a few Phoenix/DeVry grads who work for me and they seem pretty happy,

If you want to be a really good engineer, though, expect to have to work really hard to get there. If not, take an easier route. Your choice.

[shah269 0]

billvon
Please take a moment of your time and review the article.
Don't get angry at me, I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room.
The crux of my argument is based on two key quotes
1) "The first thing the (professor) told us was, 'You should expect to see this class dwindle down as the semester goes on.'

2) "There were not a lot of resources to develop interest in students," Ibrahim said. (Professors) say, 'Here's the workload, if you can handle it, you're good to go. If not, sorry.' "

Now is that a failure of the student? Or a failure of the educator?

I would argue the educator since the student did survive and landed a very nice job and appears to be a well rounded individual.

Can you say the same about her professors?
Here you have a bright driven individual and a number of educators who just don't want to do their job. To educate. A task which they are being paid rather well for. And this persons experience isn't an adoration, per my experience and others I know it's the norm.

To sum it up, I agree with the article. The system is broken. I do not blame the students rather I blame the educators failing in their core duty which is to educate students. And if this implies going slower, offering extra help after class or in some cases learning the language to a level that allows them to effectively communicate with their students so be it.

Until then, why spend well over $25k a year to be educated by the Dell help desk in Bombai?

And yes I take this personally. I worked very hard for my engineering education and I knew full well the difference between a good dedicated educator and one who thought that hazing was a required part of the education. My first 2 years were at a community college where my professors were passionate in their field and enjoyed teaching. Furthermore they spoke English at a level that was in accordance with their position. I could not say the same about the large state school which I attended.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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degraded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[JackC1 0]

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1) "The first thing the (professor) told us was, 'You should expect to see this class dwindle down as the semester goes on.'

2) "There were not a lot of resources to develop interest in students," Ibrahim said. (Professors) say, 'Here's the workload, if you can handle it, you're good to go. If not, sorry.' "

Now is that a failure of the student? Or a failure of the educator?

Engineering is a fairly tough subject. There is a lot to learn and it requires a lot of work and aptitude on the part of the student. Degrees are meant to set those that can, apart from those that cannot. In my view the standards should be high, very high, and they have already been dumbed down far too much.

Ever heard the expression "reading for a degree"? They call it that for a reason. The professors are there to help you in that reading but they are not there to spoon feed the entitlement generation with Engineering for Dummies and bestow gold starts on students for answering a question correctly. When you're at the big boys school, you're expected to act like a big boy.

If this is too difficult or challenging then there are many soft option arts courses available where all you need to do is master the phrase "do you want fries with that?".

[kallend 1,622]

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So why am I being attacked on a personal level here?.

Because you ask for it, over and over and over and over again.

No it is because you like to put others down to make yourself feel better and more important.

Shah actually has a very good chance to get laid by a female, he just needs a positive attitude.

So you really agree with me, but can't bring yourself to admit it directly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,622]

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Maybe you'd like people who can't handle math and science, and who can't solve difficult problems, to be designing the planes you and your family fly on, the bridges you and your family drive over, the power plants that deliver the electricity to your home...

On the whole I'd prefer the people who can't do the difficult stuff to enter marketing, sales, or real estate.

I did not mention you, did my statement strike a nerve?

The most brilliant people I have ever met or known are actually some very humble and kind people.

You would never hear them say a harsh word, they do not seek to belittle others to make themselves feel important.

As far as being good in math and sciences there are quite a few very gifted and extremely accomplished people with more than one PhD and they are actually nice people.

I'm sure some of the people that brought the Pinto to market were nice and kind. On the whole I prefer cars that won't explode due to poor design regardless of the personality of the designer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,622]

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Until then, why spend well over $25k a year to be educated by the Dell help desk in Bombai?
.

If a student is in need of remediation they would be far better off getting it at a community college. My school stopped offering remedial classes some 16 years ago. If applicants aren't ready for calculus and college level physics we tell them to go to community college and catch up rather than spend $30K+ to take HS level classes with us.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Ever heard the expression "reading for a degree"? They call it that for a reason. The professors are there to help you in that reading but they are not there to spoon feed

My facility training for ATC was definitely self guided. If you waited for them to come in the room and teach you, you didn't have a job very long.

[shah269 0]

You know what, this is like arguing with a frat kid or a member of a cult regarding the value of their organization.
It's just not a conversation that is worth having.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

So back to the actual article - much of it parallels my (brief) career in engineering school. I was an above-average student in high school who was pretty good at math and science on the high school level, though it was hardly a passion of mine.

Because of that, I was encouraged (particularly by my mother) to look at engineering. I think the encouragement from her came about largely because it was an opportunity she felt that she didn't have when she finished up high school in the 1950s.

I was 17, didn't really have any idea what I wanted to be when I grew up (I still really don't!) and I wound up in a small but competitive engineering program at the University of Virginia. I turned down Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech (both with arguably stronger overall engineering programs) because I figured 1) if I'm going to stick with it I like the idea of being in a smaller program and 2) I really don't think I want to stick with it, so going to a school with other strong departments was a good way to hedge my bets.

All this is setup to say that I was a pretty lukewarm candidate to be successful in an engineering program, mostly because of my lack of true, passionate interest in it. Get to college, realize that no one's MAKING me go to class, have way too much fun on extracurricular activities, and spend way too little time focusing on my classes and end my first semester with a whopping 1.8 GPA. I couldn't get out of the engineering school fast enough (no, seriously, I couldn't get out because the College of Arts & Sciences required a 2.0 to transfer in).

The rest of my first year was an exercise in getting out of engineering (took the minimum number of credits in the e-school, the rest in liberal arts - got my GPA up enough to transfer), and continued my reign of mediocrity for my second year. Got my shit together and focused my last two years and even made dean's list at some point.

All that is to say - engineering was difficult - but then again, college is difficult (and it should be if we're trying to train the next generation of critical thinkers). I might not have floundered quite so much in the beginning if I'd started in liberal arts, but I think my challenges were more due to self-discipline (I completely lacked it) and motivation/interest (again, kinda lacking). In retrospect I might have been one of those kids that could do with a year or two in the "real world" before going to college.

I blame engineering for none of this. I blame the university for none of this. I made a choice to start in engineering, without any real concept of why I was in that major. I decided not to stick with it, but it wasn't because it was too hard (though it was hard) it's because it was hard AND I wasn't interested/motivated. I don't think any amount of hand-holding or support would have helped (it might have even been there had I looked for it, I don't know).

I had a similar decision to make several years later when I was considering grad school options - I was torn between law school, business school, or a joint degree. By that point I had time to watch several friends go through law school, and I talked to all of them as well as several colleagues that had graduated law school (some practicing, some not), and all of them said "If you don't really want to do law school, don't go to law school." I couldn't find the absolute passion for it, and decided to go to business school, and was really happy about my decision. I worked my ass off in business school but I had fun doing it because I was interested in the subject matter. It's amazing how much better informed decisions tend to turn out.

(And of course, now I've come full circle and do software/application design work ... not hard core engineering, by any stretch, but definitely a more techie role than most MBAs play).

Edited to add an actual point: the point is, engineering (as with a lot of different professions) isn't for everyone. How do you tell how many of the "wash-outs" are flaky 17 year olds like me who really weren't in the right place to begin with vs. highly-motivated future engineers who get burnt out on the grind of the work? I'd be willing to bet that those who leave are more the former than the latter.

And I should also add that since I got my liberal arts degree, the only burgers I've flipped have been in my own kitchen. I had a couple office temp jobs upon first graduating to get my feet wet, one turned into a long-term gig that turned into a professional position as a consultant (that was all within a year of graduating). A college degree in any discipline is not a guarantee of professional employability, but a liberal arts degree is far from a guarantee of burger-flipping, either).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[shah269 0]

NWFlyer
Thank you for sharing your story.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[pyrotech 0]

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1) "The first thing the (professor) told us was, 'You should expect to see this class dwindle down as the semester goes on.'

2) "There were not a lot of resources to develop interest in students," Ibrahim said. (Professors) say, 'Here's the workload, if you can handle it, you're good to go. If not, sorry.' "

Now is that a failure of the student? Or a failure of the educator?

Engineering is a fairly tough subject. There is a lot to learn and it requires a lot of work and aptitude on the part of the student. Degrees are meant to set those that can, apart from those that cannot. In my view the standards should be high, very high, and they have already been dumbed down far too much.

Ever heard the expression "reading for a degree"? They call it that for a reason. The professors are there to help you in that reading but they are not there to spoon feed the entitlement generation with Engineering for Dummies and bestow gold starts on students for answering a question correctly. When you're at the big boys school, you're expected to act like a big boy.

If this is too difficult or challenging then there are many soft option arts courses available where all you need to do is master the phrase "do you want fries with that?".

Agreed 100%. I always hated it when students in class would have not done their coursework or reading before class, then would continue asking the professor to explain something they should have already known. It slowed down the rest of us that actually paid attention, took notes, and did outside research as requested. During freshman year, our dean told us specifically, "If you are not serious about this degree, you should not pursue it. We offer MANY other degrees, and your coursework will be extremely difficult. We only graduate students that are able to keep up with it." We had to sign a waiver before being accepted into the engineering program that stated we understand we will have a lot more coursework than our other students in different majors, and that we will maintain a high GPA or get removed from the program.

That said, our professors offered office hours outside of class time, and we had tutors if students needed extra help. Our professors were there to tell us what we needed to learn, help teach it to us, but overall teach us how to teach ourselves.

I may end up sounding like a "frat boy," but if I'm wanting to get a degree in a tough subject, I'm going to choose the most difficult coursework I can handle. Ever get stuck on a group project where everyone else in your group was an idiot? It fucking sucks. I was relieved when those people were weeded out of the engineering program, because it meant I wasn't taking on the brunt of the work to maintain my grades. I'm extremely thankful I work with smart people now, and don't have to put up with that kind of behavior from coworkers.

[shah269 0]

pyrotech's post reads just like the classic indoctrination process.
Just saying. Not calling it good, not saying it was bad, just calling it as I see it.
And as such, one can not argue with it.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!