Where will we get engineers?

[billvon 2,380]

>"The first thing the (professor) told us was, 'You should expect to see this
>class dwindle down as the semester goes on.'

That's true. One of the first things I tell my skydiving students is "skydiving is a dangerous sport. You can be injured, you can even be killed." Some might see that as an evil and discouraging thing to say, but I think it is better to be as honest with people as possible - because you really _can_ be killed.

Some engineering courses are easy. Some are hard. Some are hard enough that everyone may not make it through the class. I'd prefer the professor tell us that beforehand. I suspect you would as well, so you could choose a different course/major/school if you decide you don't want to take a class/major that you might not pass.

>2) "There were not a lot of resources to develop interest in students,"
>Ibrahim said. (Professors) say, 'Here's the workload, if you can handle it,
>you're good to go. If not, sorry.' "

I'm all for programs to support students - counseling, additional academic support, classmate relationship building etc. However, I'm also against relaxing standards to make it easier for students. Yes, there's going to be four hours of homework sometimes. Yes, you won't have as much time to "develop as an individual." If that's a problem, english literature will be a lot less work and give you lots of time for more social pursuits.

Your choice.

>And if this implies going slower, offering extra help after class or in some
>cases learning the language to a level that allows them to effectively
>communicate with their students so be it.

Fortunately, slower schools are available if you want them, as are schools wihere all professors have an excellent command of english. Again, your choice. It wasn't mine, but everyone is different, eh?

>My first 2 years were at a community college where my professors were
> passionate in their field and enjoyed teaching. Furthermore they spoke
>English at a level that was in accordance with their position.

Cool. Sounds like it was a good place for you.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

NWFlyer
Thank you for sharing your story.

+1
You would make a hell of a high school counselor. ( I mean that in the good way.)

[eeneR 1]

Quote

Quote

NWFlyer
Thank you for sharing your story.

+1
You would make a hell of a high school counselor. ( I mean that in the good way.)

I know one thing for sure, coming out of HS my head was so far up my ass I didnt know if I was coming or going. It took a few years for me to actually figure out I could do something with myself and what I was good at.

If I knew then what I know now.......

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[JohnMitchell 14]

Yep, me too. I knew I wanted to skydive and _______, and that was the extent of that.

[shah269 0]

Like I said I didn't have much of a choice.
But at least I have a job and it wasn't all bad.
I met some very nice people.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi bill,

In my case: If you want to be a really mediocre engineer, though, expect to have to work really hard to get there.



JerryBaumchen

[shah269 0]

Quote

Quote

NWFlyer
Thank you for sharing your story.

+1
You would make a hell of a high school counselor. ( I mean that in the good way.)

No intakes guts to tell ones story

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Like I said I didn't have much of a choice.

How so?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have never been for lowering standards, in fact I am in favor or raising standards when possible.

I have never been cut any slack, I am however cognizant of when instructors were intentionally assholes.

Recently (two years back) I called a tenured professor on his demeanor and lack of decent behavior. At first he was quite offended and after we spoke and I told him why it was important to encourage rather than discourage. We also spoke about why it is important to expect people to do better than "good enough" we became friends after that.

Sadly he lost his eyesight and got retired, not much room for designer and programmers who are blind and 65 years old.

I related a few stories to him about people who were maybe not at the top of the class but rose to the occasion resulting in us all standing in awe of them.

Sometimes people have a lot of baggage and just to be there is a monumental effort. This is especially true of older students who may not have had or still do not have an easy or "normal" life.

[shah269 0]

Quote

Quote

Like I said I didn't have much of a choice.

How so?

I have no family network in this country or really in any country. So I had to go where the unemployment rate was the lowest at the least possible cost.
Engineering fit the bill. As I said I just put my head down and pushed till I was out with the hopes of doing all the normal personal development and growth when I got out.....
Sad part, though i am a good engineer I have discovered that this is not the beste field for me and now I'm attempting an escape to be around more outgoing people and dare I say it a more gender balanced work force.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I am however cognizant of when instructors were intentionally assholes.

Recently (two years back) I called a tenured professor on his demeanor and lack of decent behavior.

Good on you.

We all find ourselves, at one time or another, in a position of power. What you do with it speaks volumes about your character. Some instructors seem to relish the role of harasser and belittler.

[Krip 2]

Quote

Quote

Until then, why spend well over $25k a year to be educated by the Dell help desk in Bombai?
.

If a student is in need of remediation they would be far better off getting it at a community college. My school stopped offering remedial classes some 16 years ago. If applicants aren't ready for calculus and college level physics we tell them to go to community college and catch up rather than spend $30K+ to take HS level classes with us.

Bingo Thats exactly what I did. I had been out of HS for 5-6 yr's & had crap math skills, in addition to spelling.

We accumulated mass qyt's of non transferable math credits because they were basically what I needed to get a strong basic foundation.

Another advantage of going to the CC was the younger small sized "WOMEN" with Boobies and all that stuff. So what if they were taking liberal arts class's.

My broken leg from jumping was a babe magnet in CC.

Shah stop whineing use your federal bean is like the Major in Ft hood that he used to get his MD degree. You've already got your ft in the door working for the feds.

During my career with the Feds some of the GS-14''s and 15's Weren't the smartest pencil in the drawer they were "well traveled".

The condo you can't sell? SIUC IMO you've made some minor misteps up to now. If you want to be professional victim that choice is totally up to you.

Have a happy happy happy, run away from your job with the FEDs. Get a job with a fed contractor they have the same bean count as the feds.

One Jump Wonder

[shah269 0]

Community college saved me.
I came from a very good high school with a number of AP classes. Yet I'm sure if I had run off into the big university I would have sank. However I got very lucky met a number of great professors who gave me a solid foundation of the basics so as to be able to enter the larger university and be able to deal with the SHIT that the professors who did not speak English put out.

As for engineering? I honestly think it's the end of the line for me in this field. There are only two more positions above me and both are political and I'm not interested in that game. Going to work for the private industry would be an option but it would be about the same type of people and maybe a 10% increase in pay. For me running the number it is just not worth it.

I am seriously considering a move into higher finance. I enjoy the technical aspects of the field as well as the unlimited earnings potential not to mention the more equitable distribution of the sexes.
For me, working in an office full of guys....is only fun until you run out of good fart jokes. I personally prefer a more diverse work environment and engineering at the moment is truly lacking it.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[jumpwally 0]

John, Not to HiJack the thread but my nephew wants avaition as a career along with ATC. He chose to attend U of North Dakota. Any words of wisdom ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Krip 2]

Quote

Community college saved me.
I came from a very good high school with a number of AP classes. Yet I'm sure if I had run off into the big university I would have sank. However I got very lucky met a number of great professors who gave me a solid foundation of the basics so as to be able to enter the larger university and be able to deal with the SHIT that the professors who did not speak English put out.

Hi Shah

Dude I'm so confused, your story keeps on changing faster than I change my underwear. So now your telling us you actually went to a CC what kind of classes did you take, how long did you attend, and didn't they have sweet young thing's of the opposite sex taking liberal arts class's.

Please don't tell me otoh please tell me that you couldn't find any women that met your minimum standards in size, weight, boobs etc.

As far as whining about about the poor english that some of your prof's exposed you to. Stop your whining unless you bring the cheese.

We had a good old born and raised in the USA prof the first year I attended the big school. Damn one of my first engr class in the big times.

The first day of class, he obivously had some issues. Like showing up for class wearing bedroom slippers.

As he walked around in front of the black board doing the same same he had been doing forever. He didn't realize that he had walked out of one of his slippers.

I think he spoke english but my attention was rivited to the empy slipper that he didn't notice he had lost. So I actually don't remember a thing he said if anything.

The next time we attended his class someone else was teaching it on 2 days notice

This is the USA a melting pot of all different nationalities so get over the poor english excuse of the profs for your misery in college.As for engineering?

"" I honestly think it's the end of the line for me in this field. There are only two more positions above me and both are political and I'm not interested in that game. Going to work for the private industry would be an option but it would be about the same type of people and maybe a 10% increase in pay. For me running the number it is just not worth it.""

BTW there are plenty of long term challenging jobs available in the middle east for engr's. In countries like Dubai among others. http://dubaijobs.net/

OTOH Keep on whining it's entertaining.


As for engineering? I honestly think it's the end of the line for me in this field. There are only two more positions above me and both are political and I'm not interested in that game. Going to work for the private industry would be an option but it would be about the same type of people and maybe a 10% increase in pay. For me running the number it is just not worth it.

I am seriously considering a move into higher finance. I enjoy the technical aspects of the field as well as the unlimited earnings potential not to mention the more equitable distribution of the sexes.
For me, working in an office full of guys....is only fun until you run out of good fart jokes. I personally prefer a more diverse work environment and engineering at the moment is truly lacking it.

One Jump Wonder

[pyrotech 0]

I had a few teachers that could 'mostly' speak English, but it was very difficult to understand them. After a couple of weeks, we got used to their accents, got over it, and realized we had a lot to learn from them. Sometimes the communication barrier was too much, so we had to ask them to explain it in a different way. The professors never minded doing so.

I think Shah's difficulty came from him not really wanting to be an engineer in the first place. There were a few times during my studies that I had to really ask myself if this is what I really wanted to do. I knew I wasn't going to get rich doing it, and the coursework was pretty difficult (I'd never had problems with difficult courses before), while leaving the program and getting into an easier major was always available. My saving grace was that I wanted to build computer systems and software to run them, because it's what really interested me. If I were only doing it because I wanted money, or because I felt I really had to, it would have sucked ass and dragged teeth.

[shah269 0]

In under a million words.
Due to funds being limited I attended two and a half years at a community college. Left there with a B+ average.
An hour and change drive each way rain or shine but I did it....though it left a mark.

After which I attended a large state university. I graduated with a B average.

Why am I offended that the professors can't or don't wish to learn English? Simple! I'm an immigrant. I learned the language. So why can't they? I was the guy who would after the class tell the professor from Kurblakistan "Ok Sangive can you please redo the entire class in English? Other than the 4 guys and what I think is a girl from Kurblakistan in the front row none of us paying customers understood a word you just said for the pas hour."

Needless to say the professors and I did not see eye to eye. They thought I was a dick...and they were right and I knew they were too stupid to get real jobs.

As for engineering field itself. As stated I've been in the field for the past 9 years, both in the civilian and governmental capacity. It's the same on either side of the fence.

As a psych professor once declared "Engineers, for my next PHD I will do a study to prove my hypothesis that on average most of them are suffering from a mild form of asperger's syndrome."

And for those that have indicated that money isn't one of your major concerns, to say I am envious of your station is an understatement. As an immigrant no funds means death. I can't exactly call mom and ask for a bail out nor crash in her basement.

Thus with a finite income ceiling and other social constraints in my opinion the best place for me is far away from Engineering. Is it for others? Yes. Was it once for me? Sure. But life has changed and so have I and this boy needs to utilize his education and his various learned skills and seriously increase his income. And you can't do that in engineering.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[pyrotech 0]

Quote

Why am I offended that the professors can't or don't wish to learn English? Simple! I'm an immigrant. I learned the language. So why can't they? I was the guy who would after the class tell the professor from Kurblakistan "Ok Sangive can you please redo the entire class in English? Other than the 4 guys and what I think is a girl from Kurblakistan in the front row none of us paying customers understood a word you just said for the pas hour."

Do you find that a lot of people you work with have difficulty speaking English as well? In the tech field (which I believe you said you are well-versed in), I run into this a lot. The people I work with now are all USA-based, but many jobs in the past have had places in Mumbai, Russia, Amsterdam, etc. Sometimes the accents are difficult to understand, and sometimes it comes down to choice of vocabulary. I had considered my experiences with professors that didn't speak English as a fluent language to be an "alternative education" in learning how to ask them to reword their sentences or get used to different pronunciations of words. I was one of the few in my courses that was eventually able to understand my professors well, but I was also one of the only ones that saw it this way. There were many times I'd have to tell the class what the professor meant in a different way, but I had experience working with tech support from different places in India before starting college. I would still like to learn Hindi as I think it would help future endeavors in the tech field, if only to really learn the accent. And again, I agree with you; the chosen "universal" language for the tech field is English. If someone is going to be in this field, they have to learn it.

And if you've been working in the field for 9 years and are as qualified as you are, then it's true; you've more than likely reached your income cap. I know a lot of people move into project management and all, which will slightly increase a salary, but you'd still have to put up with engineers (and hell, we're a pedantic bunch; I wouldn't want to put up with us as a manager). What would you like to be doing instead?

[shah269 0]

What would you like to be doing instead?
Not working with engineers. The further you get away from the engineering world two things happen.
The pay goes up up and yes UP!
And the people start getting more "normal".

My friends who work in the financial world are always amazed by the stories I tell them about the behavior of some of our top notch engineers.

And for half of my career it has been my job to train and work with these guys and one or two gals and get them such that they can communicate with upper management. I have a few business cards that read Shah "I translate Engineering to English."

As for what I wish to do when I grow up? Project management seems to be where my abilities lie.

Furthermore regarding these "professionals" inability to communicate I highly suggest they spend their evenings taking some ESL classes. If I can learn the language so can they. No excuses! It's downright rude and very disrespectful for their newly adopted home. God knows I was very embarrassed when I was living in Finland and I could not speak the language.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Wally,

If 2nd - 3rd - 4th hand info is good enough, here goes.

A young man that my son went through public school with went there for helicopter training/instruction.

His dad told me that he really liked the school & thought that they did a good job.

He is now working in central Oregon as a helicopter pilot.

JerryBaumchen

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Project management seems to be where my abilities lie.

Furthermore regarding these "professionals" inability to communicate I highly suggest they spend their evenings taking some ESL classes.

Question for you, Shah: Hypothetical (but very plausible) situation--you are a project manager managing a team of engineers on a project. Their English (and other social) skills are weak but their engineering skills are kick-ass. One of them has an ESL class at 7pm tonight. But you, as project manager, need them to stay late to finish the project.

Would you let them go to the class or insist they stay late at work?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[shah269 0]

Quote

Question for you, Shah: Hypothetical (but very plausible) situation--you are a project manager managing a team of engineers on a project. Their English (and other social) skills are weak but their engineering skills are kick-ass. One of them has an ESL class at 7pm tonight. But you, as project manager, need them to stay late to finish the project.

Would you let them go to the class or insist they stay late at work?

Yes, I always put personal development above the project time line.
The simple answer YES, when he or she comes back in the next day they will be refreshed and ready to innovate.
Yes we may be a day late, I could deal with that, but the product will be top notch.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

Having one of those days....the engineering girls are all outside walking around in clothes that are one size too small......


Enjoy
Delete after reading, no forwarding, no printing no reciting or adaptation into poetry, opera or white boy rap.



Let's set the stage shall we.

So there The Dudes was on travel meeting with officials from HQ so as to secure my office as the focal point of funds distribution for all of the organization. Nothing major just a $25mill a year program, in the Biz that's chump change.



So Dude gets a call, "Dude I hired a hot chick I hired a hot chick..."

Dude "ok boss...what?"



Boss "I hired a hot chick I hired a hot engineering chick! She looks like J-lo"



Dude (knows better and is not at all turned on by Tankass McGee AKA Mis Lopez) "Looks like J-lo you say?"



Boss "yeah and she's an engineer! And understands contracting!"



Dude (Thinking, hum...looks like Megga Ass and is an engineer....so think thighed and bitchy....why does the lord hate me) "OK....you have a picture?" (knowing full well the Dude will regret this)



Boss "Yeah we just took the yearly group photo while you were out I'll send it to you right away! I'm telling you SHE IS HOT!"



Dude (wondering where to find enough bleach to clean off his eyes after he sees this one) "Ok send me the picture"



Boss "OK! You are going to think she is hot!"



Dude (Maybe I'll just buy a bucket and pour bleach in and just stick my head in open my eyes and that will help?) "OK well send it"



Boss sends photo.....Dude looks at his black berry.



Seldom in my life has The Duder ever been glad that; 1) The screen size of a black berry is small such that you can't really "enjoy" an image and 2)That due to the software there is great pixilation of some images.

But right away two things were evident, this was not Titanicas Assagus but something much much worse and that The Dudes boss needs to have his eyes checked....



Flash forward to Monday. Dude walks in the office and quickly realizes he forgot to stop over at Costco for bucket and mental bleach.....

Dude gets introduce to aforementioned "Hot Chick"...boss looks as if he has just landed Carmen Electra......Dude is thinking...."Aaahhh no."



So here is Dude standing in front of what is....well...hum....OK take Bichy McTankass AKA Ms. Lopez. If the ugly tree was one of those large red wood trees in California and had thorns for leaves and razor wire for branches...throw her off face first after she landed she was promptly run over by the ugly buss express twice and then the ugly tree was cut down such that it landed on her twice....you know ugly trees bounce when they land....and here we have it boys!



An early 30 something heinous engineering girl who due to the astronomical aggregate demand caused by the engineering world being 90% dudes and 10% chicks that look like dudes is seen (and I shit you not) as "A HOT CATCH" strutting her stuff around the office in a flowered combo that would make blind gay men gouge out their eyes showing off legs that should not see sunlight, moon light or Israelite. While the Dude is thinking.....this is some sort of joke right? I mean there is busted and then there is she did 4 rounds with Tyson and he wasn't wearing any gloves! How the hell is this girl getting any action? And when she goes to bars does she have to pay double just to get a drink? And even then the bartender looks away when full filling her order?



It is not a good day to be the Dude in the engineering world.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[aeroflyer 0]

Why do people treat engineer's like we're not human?

It's true lots of people drop out after year 1 / 2, sad because it's not until year 3 you become good enough to get the work done and have lots of free time to burn.

[pyrotech 0]

Quote

Why do people treat engineer's like we're not human?

It's true lots of people drop out after year 1 / 2, sad because it's not until year 3 you become good enough to get the work done and have lots of free time to burn.

We're still treated like we're human; just humans with minds that need to be more capable than average. If people cannot handle the workload, why not stretch it out over 6 years instead of 4 or 5?

I started having trouble with my math courses in my 4th year. I realized that I was reaching the full capacity of math that I could understand. Should higher levels of engineering courses, say, rocket science, make the courses easier so that people like me can understand it? Hell no. If people can't hack the classes, they shouldn't be in the field.