Where will we get engineers?

[Krip 2]

Hi

Whine whine whine

>>Engineering is a cult / frat with a very bad sales pitch for your average guy. Even worse if you are at all social. Thus why some are very offended by any criticism of the field. >>

Engr school is for learning. If you want to do social after class join a frat or hang out at the DZ.

>>For me...and this is just me and my experience. Engineering school was hazing. Physical and psychological hazing. I loved the subject I love solving mechanical problems but I with a passion hated the instructors. I as an immigration did not appreciate that my professors or their assistants did not have a command of the language. And the work load of 4 hours of after class work per class per day.....why? >>

4 hr's of after class I went to school after 4 yr's of doing my duty for god and country and was highly motivated after 4 yr's as a enlisted swine in the military 66-70.

Started off with the basics at CC like algerba during summer school. Had solid fundementals (except spelling) so didn't need 4 hr's of after class when we went to the Big school.

>>That aside here is who engineering is a good option
Immigrants who would be ok with a lower middle class but stable life.>>

A stable life yep we had that for sure
>>Girls. All jokes aside given current federal requirements and for public perception a girl will do very well once she graduates. On average a female engineer will move faster up the ladder than a male engineer.>>

Dude where you been Women, ladies etc have been around since adam and eve. They have the mad skilz, look at the DZ, look at ancient history.
Stop whining. The Major that went postal at FT hood wasn't a women he was a good bean and got a free ride for a very long time. I think you got the same bean he had. I'm guessing you've got the same bean except for the part.

If you want to get ahead, stop whining, network, and play your bean with the right employer .

First Barbie doll I asked out in the State univ wanted to know what kind of a car I drove.

>>Female engineer will be given preference to an equally skilled male engineer. >>

Substitute female engr with female skydiving student. Same same.

>>Thus why I'm not surprised when some one says their girl just graduated from an engineering school with 4 job offers. >>

Did you also consider she might have a good brain, good GPA and social skills. ( she might have spent a fair amount of time growing up at DZ) The bean is just iceing on the cake.


>>Basic economics. So. If possible stand back....other than the love of solving problems...is it worth it. Yes it's stable yes unemployment is lower than average but given the hazing that engineering school is and the limited compensation packages is it worth it?>>

Hazing in Engr school? thats your fault you either had unrealistic expectations or picked the wrong school. I never experienced any hazing that I was aware of.

OTOH after I quit jumping after graduating from college with 500 jumps and a engr degree. We quit the sport for 10yr's and moved to a differnt part of the country and showed up at the local DZ.
There was some major hazing because the DZO needed worker bee's not fun jumpers that didn't project the image she wanted for her DZ.

The staff and the DZO's people were pulling every dirty trick in the book with the manifest, and the staff gave the women special attention. Not because the women had a brain they had boobs

But in reality the dz hazing was also my fault beause I stuck around and allowed it to happen.

I'm guessing that the prof Mr Kallend lucked out and started jumping at the right DZ with the right DZO. MR Roger Nelson. From what I've heard Roger encouraged all the jumpers on his DZ to go for it, and didn't pick and choose looking for worker bee's.


>>For me at the moment with 8 years in the field.....maybe not>> If your not happy thats your fault with your attitude it's only going to get worse, unless you learn how to play the game.

I read in a different thread that you might be a federal employee working for the DOD. So was I, and retired with 25 yr's of service at the age of 48, Because working for the Gov't is what it is and I had no incentive to stick around for the BS after the BS at the local DZ.

One Jump Wonder

[pyrotech 0]

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Like it or not, engineers are a dime a dozen, and if there aren't enough Americans, who cares? Plenty of cheap overseas engineers that will come here and work for a teacher's salary.

BTW, why the fuck do we pay teachers so little? Oh, right ...

Same reason. Teachers are a dime a dozen. Sadly, it's not only the good teachers that get the jobs, but the "teachers" that know people in the school districts or colleges that get the jobs. Even more sadly, the teachers fresh out of college that are able to get jobs are willing to do so for a very low salary. I can understand; they need the money, and there isn't a lot of opportunity in education to make money. It brings down the salaries of the really good teachers, and pay increases seems to be solely based on experience and education, rather than ability to teach the same thing many different ways so that the students "get it." I have a few friends that are really bad at teaching kids. They got jobs at school districts based on who they knew. I'm pretty sure those jobs could have gone to qualified teachers that are good at what they do, but don't know the right people. On the other hand, I dated a math coach (developed new ways of teaching math, from what I understand) that had a great salary. He was amazing at what he did, and could likely teach algebra to a 3rd grader. His salary increases were only based on him having 4 masters degrees and working at a school for a low wage for about 15 years. Each time he reached a cap in salary, he had to take more classes to get a raise.

Regarding engineering, my freshman year we had about 40 people lined up for software / computer systems engineering majors. To stay in the program, you had to maintain a GPA of at least 3.4. We had 8 that graduated in the end. I agreed with the professors though; if you can't keep up with the work, maybe the career choice isn't for you. It's not like the work got any easier after college.

[shah269 0]

It takes a quite a bit of mental energy, but by standing back....engineering is a frat.

They indoctrinate people to believe in what is feed them. Ever ask a student who is in a frat why they joined or if they had any disagreements? Ever see how upset they get? Rationality goes right out the window.

And reading many posts I can't help but see the same level of irrationality. "It has to be hard to push out the weak...aka non believers", "The work load had to be what it is so as to make us stronger....", "I can't believe anyone would look at income when choosing an education..."

And the list goes on and on and on. And it's cool, you did your time, you were indoctrinated into the field and it's now a part of who you are. And as such any criticism of the filed hits close to home. I understand that.

But from the outside let me tell you how it reads;
1) Classes made difficult for no apparent reason,
2) The work load is significantly above and beyond what your friends have to deal with thus preventing you from developing as an individual and determining who or what you really are,
3) When graduating your earning potential is highly suspect when compared to the amount of time and effort put into the field.
4) If you are a female engineer, write your own check....if you are a guy...ha ha ha really? I'm sorry did you think equal opportunity applied to guys?

I'm not disrespecting the field, it is a very valid and important field to be in but.....an intelligent person can look at the field before entry, calculate the ROI and walk away. And in an age where if we don't innovate we die....perhaps we are pushing away our innovators?

But why aregue? Things will never change. Such is life. And if students born and raised in the US are not interested....then I'm sure immigrants like myself will stand up and take the job?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[shah269 0]

Wow did you read this?

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A couple of years ago I decided to go back to school and pursue a science degree. As a non-traditional student, I thought I had an advantage. I WAS WRONG!! On the first day of every science class I have taken, every single professor has told us that 80-90% of students in that classroom will fail. They say if we may it out with a "C" then we are lucky. They all have HUGE egos, and literally laugh in our faces when we our given a test and are seeing questions about material we have never discussed or read about. They also do not like non-traditional students pursuing these degrees. They call us a waste of everyone's time. I am doing my best to succeed, but everyone here is on their own. I have 2 children, and I will never encourage them to go into to any of these majors. Students are avoiding these majors for a reason. They are NOT being taught properly, nor are they being encouraged. Also, trying to find a professor who speaks understandable English is an even bigger challenge. Their classes are better IF you can find a way to comprehend what they are saying, which is usually very difficult to do

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[ryoder 1,547]

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It takes a quite a bit of mental energy, but by standing back....engineering is a frat.

They indoctrinate people to believe in what is feed them. Ever ask a student who is in a frat why they joined or if they had any disagreements? Ever see how upset they get? Rationality goes right out the window.

And reading many posts I can't help but see the same level of irrationality. "It has to be hard to push out the weak...aka non believers", "The work load had to be what it is so as to make us stronger....", "I can't believe anyone would look at income when choosing an education..."

And the list goes on and on and on. And it's cool, you did your time, you were indoctrinated into the field and it's now a part of who you are. And as such any criticism of the filed hits close to home. I understand that.

But from the outside let me tell you how it reads;
1) Classes made difficult for no apparent reason,
2) The work load is significantly above and beyond what your friends have to deal with thus preventing you from developing as an individual and determining who or what you really are,
3) When graduating your earning potential is highly suspect when compared to the amount of time and effort put into the field.
4) If you are a female engineer, write your own check....if you are a guy...ha ha ha really? I'm sorry did you think equal opportunity applied to guys?

I'm not disrespecting the field, it is a very valid and important field to be in but.....an intelligent person can look at the field before entry, calculate the ROI and walk away. And in an age where if we don't innovate we die....perhaps we are pushing away our innovators?

But why aregue? Things will never change. Such is life. And if students born and raised in the US are not interested....then I'm sure immigrants like myself will stand up and take the job?

Never thought I'd say this, but...Shah is right.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kallend 1,822]

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It takes a quite a bit of mental energy, but by standing back....engineering is a frat.

They indoctrinate people to believe in what is feed them. Ever ask a student who is in a frat why they joined or if they had any disagreements? Ever see how upset they get? Rationality goes right out the window.

And reading many posts I can't help but see the same level of irrationality. "It has to be hard to push out the weak...aka non believers", "The work load had to be what it is so as to make us stronger....", "I can't believe anyone would look at income when choosing an education..."

And the list goes on and on and on. And it's cool, you did your time, you were indoctrinated into the field and it's now a part of who you are. And as such any criticism of the filed hits close to home. I understand that.

But from the outside let me tell you how it reads;
1) Classes made difficult for no apparent reason,
2) The work load is significantly above and beyond what your friends have to deal with thus preventing you from developing as an individual and determining who or what you really are,
3) When graduating your earning potential is highly suspect when compared to the amount of time and effort put into the field.
4) If you are a female engineer, write your own check....if you are a guy...ha ha ha really? I'm sorry did you think equal opportunity applied to guys?

I'm not disrespecting the field, it is a very valid and important field to be in but.....an intelligent person can look at the field before entry, calculate the ROI and walk away. And in an age where if we don't innovate we die....perhaps we are pushing away our innovators?

But why aregue? Things will never change. Such is life. And if students born and raised in the US are not interested....then I'm sure immigrants like myself will stand up and take the job?

Never thought I'd say this, but...Shah is right.

No, he's frustrated with his life and can't get laid.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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And the list goes on and on and on. And it's cool, you did your time, you were indoctrinated into the field and it's now a part of who you are. And as such any criticism of the filed hits close to home. I understand that.

With only a couple brief exceptions (which I blame myself for in terms of how I stacked my classes) I didn't find getting my engineering degrees as painful or overbearing in terms of time as you are making it out to be. So while I don't mean to defend the intentionally discouraging practices you felt you encountered, I think you're painting with an overly broad brush. I don't wish to make the same mistake, so I'll recognize there were a few things that made it easier for me and helped keep me interested along the way. The rest of this post will probably come off like a CV, but I'm just throwing this out there as something to maybe emulate.

First off, I went to a very good high school. It was public, but my parents specifically researched high schools and intentionally moved across suburbs when my oldest sister was in 7th grade so that we could all go to this high school. The science and math teachers were very good, and my AP physics teacher is actually one of the first people to really spark my interest in being an engineer. I graduated with 10 AP classes worth of credit. This meant I didn't have to take 18 hours a semester, I could take 14, and still graduate in 4 years.

When in the program I felt like I was always in at least one hands on lab course. In your very first semester they have you building circuits for robotic cars to navigate obstacle courses. In physics classes you're cooling slugs of metal down to a known temperature and then seeing how much water they can freeze to calculate their heat capacity or using a voice coil to excite resonant modes in strings. I coded an FPGA to drive a working whack-a-mole game, wrote a surround sound processor in assembly, wrote a 3D tank battle video game in C, controlled two-axis inverted pendulums using simulink, and created a child seat with a microcontroller that could crack the windows of the car and/or phone for help if it got too hot. Lots of interesting stuff.

Thirdly, uiuc got recruited pretty heavily for EE internships so I got to work each summer in places around the country making really good money for a college student. I had a rig, A-license, and a couple hundred skydives by the time I graduated.

So yeah. I didn't really find it to be too much of a struggle and if I had questions in a class I went to the professor's office hours and asked them. I was never told to "sink or swim" or given the whole "look left, look right" spiel. I only have a couple complaints (that I hang on to anyway.) 1) My advisor apparently didn't know how pre-reqs and graduation requirements worked. He was good at explaining the scope of courses when asked but he recommended changes to my plan of study that would have prevented me from graduating on time had I heeded. 2) I understand that materials and semiconductors are a big deal at uiuc, but they made the required chain of classes on those topics too long. To this day I don't have any interest in what I learned in those classes; I would have much rather taken more EM and antenna courses which, instead, had to wait until grad school.

[kallend 1,822]

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?

I'm not disrespecting the field, it is a very valid and important field to be in but.....an intelligent person can look at the field before entry, calculate the ROI and walk away. And in an age where if we don't innovate we die....perhaps we are pushing away our innovators?

No, the ROI for an engineering major who is prepared to work in college and not whine all the time is probably better than any other undergraduate major.

The top ten starting salaries for 2011 college graduates are all in engineering or computer/information science. Majors that actually require real skills and a work ethic.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shah269 0]

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No, the ROI for an engineering major who is prepared to work in college and not whine all the time is probably better than any other undergraduate major.

The top ten starting salaries for 2011 college graduates are all in engineering or computer/information science. Majors that actually require real skills and a work ethic.

But in the long run who makes the more money not only for themselves but also for their company?

As it stands as of the early 90's, those that practice financial engineering not only make more but also provide the best returns for their employer. Please not the bonuses delivered time and time again by the large financial institutions.

And please don't call people who do not wish to do 10 hours of homework every evening and be pounded by their ESL professors lazy or not driven. They are just smart. After all who in their right mind seeks out pain and suffering? It's not a viable human trait.

I'm not demeaning the field, I am arguing the question....why haze the students?

Yes some were lucky that they had a great experience but a good number were not.

But in the long run who makes the more money not only for themselves but also for their company?

As it stands as of the early 90's, those tho practice finanical engineering not only make more but also provide the best returns for their employer.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[pyrotech 0]

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But from the outside let me tell you how it reads;
1) Classes made difficult for no apparent reason,
2) The work load is significantly above and beyond what your friends have to deal with thus preventing you from developing as an individual and determining who or what you really are,
3) When graduating your earning potential is highly suspect when compared to the amount of time and effort put into the field.
4) If you are a female engineer, write your own check....if you are a guy...ha ha ha really? I'm sorry did you think equal opportunity applied to guys?

Do you feel your course work was too much for the amount of work you put into your job? I really don't. Most of my classes were pretty tough, but I used a lot of what I learned in school, and had to learn a lot more after graduating. I also enjoyed coursework, and enjoy a challenge. I don't consider it hazing to have to do difficult math problems that an art major wouldn't have to do. The programming courses I took, even the "hard" ones, were nothing compared that what I faced at my first job, and my current one. Sure, I don't program in assembler at work, but I can debug like a mofo after taking that course.

Many of my friends had much less of a course load than I did, but they weren't exactly getting into a difficult major or career field. Some people couldn't do our coursework through school, and those same people wouldn't be able to do our jobs today. I may not have even been able to do YOUR coursework in school or do your job, and you may not be able to do mine. Not all minds are created equal.

As for salary, you're right. We got screwed.
My brother graduated with a 2-year degree in "process operation." I have no idea what that means (he can do a task?), but it got him a job where he sits on his ass all day playing Warcraft. His title is "fire watcher," and he has to be present in case there is a fire. If there is one, he has to make a phone call to his boss, and send out a warning. He makes more money than I do. Sure, I wouldn't mind getting paid to sit around playing on Reddit or reading all day, but I enjoy my work now, which is just as rewarding. Or so I tell myself, hahaha.

As for the male / female thing, I was up against 2 other males and 1 female for my job. I got the job. Not every company bases their decisions on what they want to stick their dick into.

[shah269 0]

Ceteris paribus....all other things being equal (Engineering joke)....compared to the energy and time you put in Vs the energy and time your brother put in....who has the more efficient life?
By efficient, who had the more free time to discover who they were and where they wanted to be, met more people, went out more, had less stress....and in the end....makes more money?

Look I love riding a bike, but when it's a 200 mile trip...thank you but I will take my car.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[billvon 2,723]

>1) Classes made difficult for no apparent reason,

The classes that I had that were difficult were difficult because I had trouble with them and they had to cover certain topics. 6.003 (signals and systems) was hard for me because I had trouble with the math underpinning it. 6.004 (computer design) I found very easy, although a lot of people struggled with it.

So if people struggled with it, why didn't they make it easier? Because the subject matter is intrinsically hard. Maxwell's Equations are hard to understand. You can simplify them, but if you over simplify the material, then you won't just get a different grade on a test - the motor you are designing won't work. And that's bad.

Many liberal arts majors don't get this. They think the goal is to get a degree. (Which for some of the soft majors, may well be the case.) And they get cranky when some curriculum designer makes their job harder. But the goal of an engineering education is not to "get a degree." It's to generate good engineers, and that's defined by being able to make gadgets that work in the real world - and that's a hard thing to do. Likewise, the goal of a medical degree is to generate good doctors, and that's defined by being able to save lives, rebuild people and cure diseases - and that's also a hard thing to do.

If you ever find yourself needing a heart transplant, do you want a doctor who barely graduated from the easiest medical school in the country? Or do you want one who did well at a rigorous one?

>2) The work load is significantly above and beyond what your friends have
>to deal with thus preventing you from developing as an individual and
>determining who or what you really are,

1) Most of my friends had a similar workload.

2) Working that hard helped make me who I am. You don't develop character when you are sitting around drinking beer, partying and watching TV.

>3) When graduating your earning potential is highly suspect when
>compared to the amount of time and effort put into the field.

Seems to match for both me and the people I went to school with.

>4) If you are a female engineer, write your own check....if you are a
>guy...ha ha ha really? I'm sorry did you think equal opportunity applied
>to guys?

It did for us. Heck, at our ten year reunions, men on average were making a lot more than women. (Due to the larger # of women who stopped working to have kids, not because they were making less.) I recall one couple who both got their undergrads, both got MBA's and both started at approximately $70K/yr.

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

Hi Krip,

With some very minor editorial changes, that could be my life story.
JerryBaumchen

[shah269 0]

Look I don't mean to be rude....but every time I read "It's hard because it has to be..." it sounds much as if what you would hear a frat boy say after the indoctrination process.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Krip 2]

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Never thought I'd say this, but...Shah is right.

No, he's frustrated with his life and can't get laid.

Never thought I'd say this but...... Prof Kallend is correct &

Pass the cheese

One Jump Wonder

[pyrotech 0]

He, by far, has the more efficient life, if we're talking money as the only factor as a return on investment. He puts in no effort, and gets a great monetary return. However, I could build a system that would replace his job in a couple of months. I'd say I have slightly more job security, being as I can use my education to start a business. He can... erm... operate processes.

Given the same amount of time at our jobs though (he's been at his for 7 years; I've been building computers and software for 2), I'd say I'll have a far better salary by the time I have 7 years' experience.

If you weigh in college and such though, the amount of loans I have to pay vs him (parents paid for his college, while I had to take out loans for mine), and the amount of work we each put into our jobs, he got the better deal. I traveled a lot more, met a lot more people, went out more, etc, but had to work my ass off to be able to afford it all, have time for it, and still have an active social life.

Then again, he's stuck living in a shitty part of Texas, while I'm in a beautiful setting in the mountains. He pays a lot less for rent and has a commute every morning, while I pay a lot and can walk to work. If we're talking strictly money compared to time and effort put into work, he got the better deal by far. I wouldn't trade positions with him in a heartbeat though, if I had to take the rest of it along with it.

I get the point of not liking having to work hard to get to where you are, when it seems as though others may not have had to. But in the end, did you really want to be an engineer when you started school? And do you love your work now? Or did you only do it for money? If you only did it for the money, you screwed yourself. Real estate would have been a better option. If you love what you do though, the only other factor would be the salary, right? Doesn't that mean it's time to petition for a promotion?

[pyrotech 0]

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Look I don't mean to be rude....but every time I read "It's hard because it has to be..." it sounds much as if what you would hear a frat boy say after the indoctrination process.

Do you think you'd be able to do your job as well as you do if your coursework was easy? (Honestly)

If so, you may not be challenged enough at work.

[shah269 0]

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Do you think you'd be able to do your job as well as you do if your coursework was easy? (Honestly)

If so, you may not be challenged enough at work.

Compared to engineering school work is easy.
If someone does not speak English at a level that makes it difficult to work with them...I just ignore them until they improve their communication skills or another person takes their spot.
I'm sorry I learned how to speak the language...why can't they?

It all comes down to this. And it's a difficult question to ask especially if you are passionate about what you do.
Was the investment in time and capital such that after the investment the returns in time and capital are such that one can live a comfortable life when compared to the norm?

If the answer is yes. The you may have made the right choice.
If the answer is no. Then you make the wrong choice.

Yes passion is important, yes love of what you do is important. But passion or nor love buy lift tickets. Money and time do.

For some it is obviously the right choice, for other maybe not, and for still others....no was not the right choice at all.
And with that, I have nothing else to say.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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Yes passion is important, yes love of what you do is important. But passion or nor love buy lift tickets. Money and time do.

Then why do I know lots of people who manage to skydive regularly or even frequently who make much less than the "norm"? People who are happy and fulfilled in their lives despite making a low(er) income?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[kallend 1,822]

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.

Has it occurred to you that if you whined less about your lot in life you might actually get laid?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

• Quote

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

Hi Kris,

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People who are happy and fulfilled in their lives despite making a low(er) income?

Absolutely.

Many years ago, the agency that I worked for started up a new dept't. I knew the mission from management ( I thought it was a great concept ), the job(s) there would have been a promotion & the manager wanted me to come work for him. Why didn't I apply? I could stand to work for that manager.

It's all about choices and what makes you happy, not what makes the other person happy.

Just my thoughts . . .

Jerry Baumchen

[Krip 2]

Hey you all

Lets stop piling on poor shah. He is what he is and inspite of how much everyone tries help shah understand the staight scoop he just won't get it.

And thats a fact jack.

OTOH it is entertaining

One Jump Wonder

[shah269 0]

So why am I being attacked on a personal level here? I point out some basic facts regarding economics, compensation and what others on the CNN link have pointed out and I get attacked on a personal level?
Look I may not agree with you but maybe I'm mature enough to not attack you on a personal level thus I would appreciate the same level of respect.
Thank you.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[NWFlyer 2]

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So why am I being attacked on a personal level here? I point out some basic facts regarding economics, compensation and what others on the CNN link have pointed out and I get attacked on a personal level?
Look I may not agree with you but maybe I'm mature enough to not attack you on a personal level thus I would appreciate the same level of respect.
Thank you.

Genuine feedback on your rhetorical style:

Here's where I think you get off-base on your arguments, generally. You take your personal experience and you generalize it to an entire population. Then you push back or take offense when people challenge that notion.

Your personal experience is what it is. Your perception of the experiences of the people in your circles is what it is. But extending those out more globally is where your rhetorical style has failed, time and time again, and it's what causes people to react negatively.

If you just said "I feel like I've made the wrong choice with engineering and here's why" I think there would be less pushback. But you've tried to generalize it to all engineers, despite being presented with contrary evidence that not all engineers are unhappy with their choices and not all of them felt the workload as students was inappropriate.

Same goes for your taste in women. If all you said was "This is what I'm attracted to and here's why" you'd get a lot less push back. But you try to generalize your personal preferences and personal experiences across the entire straight male population.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I agree %100 with the article.
But further more....is it really worth it if you have a choice? I have a bs in engineering, six sigma black belt, two patents and a few other things and will soon have an MBA and I'm sure I will have a hard time leveraging my engineering experience into increased compensation. Sadly as it stands today....there is better pay in financial engineering than actual engineering

Engineers who do not live in New Jersey and do not work for the government are able to leverage their experience into $100-$200K annual compensation packages without certifications or attending executive MBA programs.

While the titans of Wall Street do much better, 2-4X median household income on just one salary is a pretty good deal especially when it only takes 3 (a motivated student with opportunity can leave high school with their first year of an engineering degree done) - 5 years of college education to get there.

Especially when the work is fun, the companies can be fun, and you don't need to live someplace like New York.