Airman1270 0 #26 December 28, 2004 Yeah, put me in the B-12 column. I had B-12's installed on my Infinity. The DZO surmised that the folks who put the rig together said to themselves "He's old." Nothing against the other type; I may once have used a borrowed rig with step-thru's, though I don't remember. In fact, these rigs look cooler than mine. But after jumping a Wonderhog for so many years I'm not accustomed to looking cool, anyway. The only drawback I can think of is if you take out a formation or otherwise piss people off, and they can more easily unsnap your legstraps just before break-off. Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteLeg straps without quick ejectors (or B-12's, there is a difference) are still adjustable. Does any manufacturer offer quick ejector option??? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 or 2 manufacturers do offer Quick Ejector Snaps, but they are problematic. First, you have to double check that they are fully closed - before every jump. If you don't, the extended gate might get snagged by a passing line and open long before you want it to. Secondly, the tiny springs in QE Snaps wear out way too quickly - less than 1/2 the life of B-12 Snaps. Replacing QE snaps is expensive if you ask a Master Rigger to resew your harness or expensive if you ask him to install screw-in QE Snaps. Either way, QE Snaps are far more trouble than they are worth. Yes, QE Snaps are still available on Pilot Emergency Parachutes, however, when I worked for Butler Parachute Systems, he would reluctantly sew QE Snaps into new PEPs, provided you listened to him grumble for a couple of minutes and signed an extra waiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #28 December 28, 2004 QuoteI personally think the fixed straps are the worst invention or modification that has ever been dumped on skydivers. Absolutely the most stupid thing ever. The only people who like them are those who have never tried anything else. The adjustable leg straps with the quick ejector snaps are by far the best. I am 6'-2"as well, and 185 pds. Bill Cole D-41 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The market agrees with Bill. Less than 1% of new harnesses have fixed leg straps. However, the vast majority of sport harnesses have thread-thru leg straps. I prefer thread-thrus so much that I don't even bother to undo the B-12 Snaps on my tandem rig. I just leave them closed, set the tandem rig on a table and step in. As for student harnesses with B-12 snaps, I have found that the quickest way to dress students is to straighten the leg straps and lay them on the floor. I invite the student to step into their leg straps. Then I lift the rest of the harness onto their shoulders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #29 December 28, 2004 Here is an example of a quick ejector opening up just this fall on a pilot bail out rig and injuring the pilot. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1325009#1325009Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #30 December 28, 2004 Enough to know that step in leg straps are a great thing if you are part of the Cirque de Soliel, but for jumping the B-12s are far superior in putting the rig on. I realize theyare adjustable, but that doesnt take away the stupidity of having to step through them when all one has to do is click the snap. So much easier. When I was jumping in Quito Ecuador with the Special Forces, it was even difficult to put on the B-12s because the DZ was 9500 feet above sea level. There is no way after being there without supplementary oxygen, that one could get through those step ins in less than an hour of contortions. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docjohn 0 #31 December 28, 2004 2 things in life I never understood: step thru harnesses and bicycles without kickstands. B-12's and kick stands make life easier. I guess they're just not cool. Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32 December 28, 2004 Okay Slider... I guess we settled THAT one for ya! You want a rig with one step through and one B12 snap... Next question..... Did you want to get a split saddle or solid?!?! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 December 28, 2004 Quotestep in leg straps are a great thing if you are part of the Cirque de Soliel The first time I jumped a step through rig (just off student status) I didn't get it. I proceeded to un-thread the leg straps, don the rig, and re-thread them. The S&TA pulled me aside and said "It's a step through rig, and leaving the staps threaded lessens the possibiblty that you'll thread it the wrong way". I tried stepping through several times, and fell over several times. The next day I was back to un-threading until a guy gave me some tips and showed me how to do it without falling down. 4000+ jumps later, I've stepped through every time, and only fallen over a couple times. I'm far from flexible, coordinated, or athletic, but if you know how to do it, it's not that hard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #34 December 28, 2004 QuoteAbsolutely the most stupid thing ever. The only people who like them are those who have never tried anything else. No offense, but I have jumped both and much prefer the step throughs over the b-12's. BTW when I say I have jumped them, I have around 800-1000 jumps on B-12's, not a few. My Demo rig had them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 December 28, 2004 QuoteB12's... add a potential failure point (extra complexity) So, do you believe that harnesses with articulation rings between the main lift webs and leg straps are a bad idea? That adds six new sewn harness joints (i.e. failure points & extra complexity) in place of solid continuous webbing... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #36 December 28, 2004 "Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video " WHeeee....more movies...more movies..more movies!!! _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #37 December 28, 2004 In terms of safety, I often wonder if it wouldn't be safer to have a b-12 snap or quick ejector snap on the chest strap. I hear all kinds of stories of people either forgetting to fasten their chest strap or threading it through wrong. I've never heard of anyone forgetting to fasten their chest strap with a b-12 snap or quick ejector snap. But then again this has undoubtedly happened. Twice, when I first started jumping the thread through chest straps, I forgot to thread it thru correctly. Once it was spotted by another jumper on the plane. The other time I caught it myself as we were climbing to altitude. I had some pieces of velcro on my chest strap. I cut these off and haven't had any trouble since. I miss the old snaps here.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #38 December 28, 2004 wings still offers b12-s for $35 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #39 December 29, 2004 I had a couple of rigs with a velcro chest strap, which always came undone on opening. I never figured it to be a big deal, as long as both leg straps were done up. If one of those came undone....no big deal, the other wouldnt let you fall out. I had a mal on a Para Commander because I packed a 16mm movie camera into the apex, and when I cut away, one of the butterfly type snaps came undone on the reserve, leaving me hanging on one snap hook. It got me down, so I didnt view it as anything to be alarmed about. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #40 January 2, 2005 Quote I had a mal on a Para Commander because I packed a 16mm movie camera into the apex, and when I cut away, one of the butterfly type snaps came undone on the reserve, leaving me hanging on one snap hook. It got me down, so I didnt view it as anything to be alarmed about. Bill Cole D-41 Thank God for cross connectors on the old chest type reserves. I put together a reserve for a friend back in the old days. I was fresh out of riggers school, and figured I knew it all. I got it all packed up and about a day later I realized that I forgot to put a cross connnector between the two butterfly snaps. Luckily the guy never jumped it and I repacked it correctly without anyone being aware of what a dipstick rigger I was. If one butterfly snap had came loose he would have been history. This really was a wake up call for me, and I started to rethink whether I wanted to be a rigger or not. It also made me aware of the need to double check everything. Bill, you're the first person I ever heard of that had a butterfly snap come loose on a reserve opening. So I guess there really is a need for that cross connector....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #41 January 2, 2005 Steve: Yes that cross connector saved my day. It sure was odd hanging from one snap hook un an unsteerable 24 ft reserve . That PC was prone to have a mal now and again, but the camera in the apex probably helped. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #42 January 4, 2005 Quotewings still offers b12-s for $35 Hmmm Make a person think Step ins started being 15-20 yr's ago. Maybe 500-1000 rigs/yr wag 20 yr's saving 35/rig skydivers saved $700,000. Nice R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #43 January 5, 2005 >Does any manufacturer offer quick ejector option??? My first rig (a Strong Starlite, if anyone remembers those dinosaurs) had ejectors in three places. I do NOT recommend them for anyone nowadays; we had a couple of cases of students snagging the ejector tabs on door frames, carpeting etc and releasing their legstraps as they were climbing out of the Cessna. It would really suck to have your legstraps (or chest strap) released by a poorly-placed grip on exit. Note that B-12's do not have this problem. A well maintained B-12 does not too high a risk of premature release. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #44 August 11, 2013 Its a bit late for this post, but I actually had a snap come off the D ring twice, using my good old belly wart. I don't particularly like the reserve on the back...I like my belly wart, where I can see it. I also pulled the ripcord once and nothing came out> I thumped it with my fist, and boom...a big white blossom above me in a split second. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #45 August 11, 2013 Less than 1 % have quick ejector snaps. People have gone to the step through leg straps...the worst thing ever to come into skydiving. Absolutely dumb. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #46 August 11, 2013 skydiverton B12's: - are old - are uncomfortable - add a potential failure point (extra complexity) - Not good for resell value - not old...mine were made the same year my rig was 5 years ago. - not uncomfortable at all, maybe ya aren't putting them on right. - been using them for almost 4 decades & never had or seen a failure. - Doesn't hurt resale to someone who understands what they are & how to use them. The main reason step-through leg straps became popular is because of weight & cost. Try getting out of them in water sometime... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #47 August 12, 2013 airtwardo ***B12's: - are old - are uncomfortable - add a potential failure point (extra complexity) - Not good for resell value - not old...mine were made the same year my rig was 5 years ago. - not uncomfortable at all, maybe ya aren't putting them on right. - been using them for almost 4 decades & never had or seen a failure. - Doesn't hurt resale to someone who understands what they are & how to use them. The main reason step-through leg straps became popular is because of weight & cost. Try getting out of them in water sometime...^^^^ This ^^^^^^ I put B-12's on my new rig. Always had em... always will.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,915 #48 August 12, 2013 Love mine, my wife loves hers. Helps middle aged or older people not look so ungraceful. Similar snaps are used for tandems. I've never heard of a failure. But they definitely are not on the cool kids rigs.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
