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base283

Sabre 170,collapsible PC,2sec FF at ITW

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Can you please bicker in your own thread? Almost 20% of the posts in this thread are you guys bickering. You both posted thoughtful responses on the topic. Please stay with the topic as a favor to the rest of us.

space



Come on Space? I'm 100% with you that this topic (of individuals doing obviously dumb things off prime, peachy, legal objects & selfishly jeopardising that object for the other 99.99% of thoughtful jumpers) is really important for the international BASE community to debate fully and frankly.

BUT...

There are two reasons why I (we (?)) read this forum:

1. Pure entertainment.
2. Education and thought provoking debate.

(Very much in that order).

Kris and Ian's exchanges satisfy these criteria perfectly.

Hear me out, please Space?

You ask us for opinion on how to handle this situation where someone does something so obviously cretinous off a beautiful, legal, but not totally bomb proof object.

The forth reply is a jaw dropping and undeniably judgemental statement from Kris. I actually fell off my seat:

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It was a Sabre 170, d-bag, collapsible PC....I was there when the dude got back to his Car. An experienced jumper (1000 plus jumps) tried to tell the dude very nicely that it was a bad idea and got the shrug and the "yeah, I know" ...sneer...from the dude.

Kris.



After I'd picked myself up off the floor and double checked the poster's name, I nearly busted my guts laughing. Fair enough, I thought: people change with time, education and experience; Kris is totally different to the Kris that intended to fly a wing suit from ITW a year ago for his second BASE jump, ever. He later told us that our "shouting at the exit point" "made" them (later) choose to fly their wing suits along, close to the wall to the Helicopter landing area, to avoid being seen by us.

Now I can't imagine that anybody is going to need the pure, unadulterated irony of this situation explained to them. Ian points out this irony (and it is important, as well as highly entertaining) and Kris responds by taking a cheap shot at Ian's well built physique. He further invokes the standard "BS", "You don't know me", "regional politics" line that routinely gets wheeled out when somebody has done something stupid and/ or highly unethical and is completely unprepared to accept any responsibility for their actions.

That had me hooting with laughter (thanks Kris).

But enough laughing with Kris: let me say why I think this is important. Besides, Kris has made it abundantly clear that he has a far more impressive "Daddy" than poor old me.

This apparent deviation is important to the original debate because Kris still totally denies any responsibillity for his outrageously bad choices.

He seems to regret the episode being brought up, but doesn't seem to see any wrong in his own early approach to BASE. He readily denounces the muppet with the Sabre, but very obviously still can't accept that he'd done something easily as stupid off that very same wall.

So why wouldn't we expect exactly the same attitude from Mr Sabre 170, 2s delay with collapsible PC? He clearly thought it a good enough idea to follow through. He didn't die, this time. Must have been a perfectly valid way to spend an afternoon at this unregulated wall, in this unregulated sport of ours, full of happy free spirits. No? So how to deal with it, then?

I've been in that situation and it's really unpleasant to have to deal with. "Have to??" you ask. Yes, have to: I have to live with myself. Some totally hypothetical young knob jockey makes it clear that he's about to embark on a project that is apparently 100% likely to earn him an early entry on the list. You can see the entry already. I don't know about others, but I can't just look the other way. Sorry.

Anyway, I digress. Back to a highly relevant situation that I have indeed experienced: young skydiver, full of fear and guided by an almost equally inexperienced jumper (who does not accept any responsibility for bringing him to the exit point and lending out his wingsuit). You get angry. Excuses and exceptions are made by our new wingsuit BASE jumper, but they intend to go ahead anyway. You get more angry. Consequently there is some "shouting at the exit point" and the offending wingsuit is removed and safely jumped down in someone elses jacket.

You give the wingsuit back knowing full well that they're almost certainly going straight back up there to jump their wingsuits. Nothing has been achieved in the long run. You decide that (although it certainly leaves a bad taste), you did the right thing. Now you will simply avoid being on the exit point at the same time. What more can you do??

People have even had their rigs taken off them. Full stop. There's always some fucking prick on eBay that'll sell them another alledgedly BASE ready rig, no questions asked, no further instruction required.

Anyone who thinks that this is an irrelevant or silly bitchy debate is not jumping in the modern McBASE world.

Tonight I went to jump one of my local objects. It is a fantastic object, perfect for absolutely any experience level. You can jump it safely slider up and down and it's been jumped almost nightly from the very earliest days of BASE. I have done about 130 jumps off it, my mate has about 300 off it. With 1100 BASE jumps between us off all sorts of shit, all round the world, it's still one of our very favourites. It was loved by the UK BASE community.

Approximately 7 months ago, one of the new jumpers attempting to fly wingsuits from ITW (there were two on that "accelerated wingsuit BASE course") went in at our local, with a fucking pull up chord tied around his pilot chute. He'd been taught this redundant trick by his equally young and free spirited "mentor", who still to this day refuses any responsibility for teaching him that and not gear checking him.

Following a lengthy program with the power company adding barbed wire and carrying out long overdue maintenance, tonight we had to walk away: The object is now (as of tonight) literally festooned with high tech, high quality infra red cameras and motion sensors, all tied in to a very impressive looking box with many flashing multi coloured LEDs that transmits the (no doubt) high quality output to God knows where. I fully expect a reception committee to be waiting for me when I land.

Overnight the object has been transformed by two young, free spirits: it used to be the most forgiving and (at night) accepting of objects. Now you have to accept the bust factor that would normally be inherent in a jump from a high profile down town building owned by a cash rich conglomerate.

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back to some details..the jumpers in question were both italian, hell they might have lived right down the street?Maybe they were more local than any of us in this conversation.
One jumper had base gear, and it was deduced that he took a very short delay because he was over the bar at give or take 600 meters, exactly how short no one could have been sure. the dude w/ the sabre was only seen as he was turning to land behind the hill in front of the bar..We all looked at eachother w/ questioning looks" that looked like a skydiving canopy" some jokes were made and 20 min. later our observations were confirmed when he hiked down. Full skidiving rig, jumpsuit, and all. The other jumper was jumping base gear.

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back to some details..the jumpers in question were both italian, hell they might have lived right down the street?Maybe they were more local than any of us in this conversation.



Living in proximity to an object does not make you a "local" in the BASE sense of the word automatically. Were that the case, then any non-jumper would be considered a "local." A more complete definition of the term would be "local BASE jumper," which definition likely excludes someone with no previous BASE experience, and also likely excludes someone so out of touch with appropriate BASE gear and technique as to take a skydiving rig for a 2 second delay from a terminal cliff.

Further, even being a "local BASE jumper" does not give one an absolute right to damage the access of other jumpers. Even were you an active jumper living in Twin Falls, for example, I'd say it's a bad idea to do something like setting up a trampoline in the roadway and running across lanes of traffic to spring off it for a launch.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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This stuff is golden. Haven't seen this much off topic ranting, raving, preaching and bullshit in a while. Like Blinc used to be. RIP.

PS. PLEASE will someone mention Robin Heid?
"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

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I agree w/ what you say about being a local. I'm not saying it gives him a right to do what he wants, but he is less likely to listen to people telling him what to do if he lives there, and has maybe been jumping that cliff for 15 years w/ skydiving gear. The delay is unknown. No one that witnessed this saw the actual delay.
I am not saying it's his right or anything, just trying to clear up the speculation about what happened, and who the people were.

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well, if he landed behind the hill (seen from the bar) he must have done a MUCH bigger delay, as a 9-cell-zp-Sabre surely has a much better glide than any base-canopy out there and with those you easily make the lz after a 15 sec delay.
of course unless he had a snivelly opening with 10 twists and the slider blocked above them :P

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Is not Irony the best teacher?
Kris it seems, has seen both sides from the inside. Whereas I, like most of us, can only see the outside of the other side. Kris has the most potential so far in this thread, to give us an understanding of what goes on in the other side and how to best deal with it IMO.
One can get more from using a situation like this as a resource, than one can get from bickering about it.
Hope this helps,
space

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Of course if any of the Italian BASE jumpers feel that I am not welcome there. I will respect that.



I can speak on behalf of the Italian locals.

If you follow the rules here: http://www.basearco.com/ and use your common sense you will be welcomed with open arms - as many visiting BASE jumpers have found.

If you don't follow the rules then the locals will be less welcoming...

ITW is a unique jewel in the BASE jumping crown. 4000' of WS altitude beneath you, a grass LZ and a bar. I am grateful to be able to jump ITW each and everytime.

Protect your own health and this great object, please.

Long flights,

J
BASEstore.it

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thats all whats to say to this messy discussion...
james brings it to the point.
we need to respect the rules to keep the leagl sites open....everybody of us did stupid shit or made the wrong dicisson from time to time, and thats ok...
we try to be flying humans and thats supid enough;)
but a behavior like that bloddy sabre hero put all the other BASE jumper in the wrong light....

i like to know where this jumper usually make his skydives, then i visit this dropzone and jump with a baserig an wingsiut and do infront of the tandempassengers and students a fucking deep lowpull......:P
then i want to see his reaction .....

i think he starts to tell me that this behavior is not ok and jadajadajada....

bahhh...whatever.....:S

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i like to know where this jumper usually make his skydives, then i visit this dropzone and jump with a baserig an wingsiut and do infront of the tandempassengers and students a fucking deep lowpull......:P
then i want to see his reaction .....
i think he starts to tell me that this behavior is not ok and jadajadajada....

he might think it's cool sh*t and ask you to do it again so he can get it on video [:/]
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Is not Irony the best teacher?
space



It certainly can be.

I absolutely don't think Kris is a bad person and I definitely have no bad feelings about him, personally.

If Kris has any suggestions on how to reduce the frequency of such incidents, based on his own insight, I for one would be very interested.

Regarding 460's car battery suggestion: does this go some way to explaining why I've found car batteries in the packing areas at the two best known European tourist BASE stops? :P

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Regarding 460's car battery suggestion: does this go some way to explaining why I've found car batteries in the packing areas at the two best known European tourist BASE stops?



Unfortunately as Spacey has pointed out, the acid from those darn batteries gets on the ground in the packing area and is hazardous to everyone else too.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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ITW is a unique jewel in the BASE jumping crown. 4000' of WS altitude beneath you, a grass LZ and a bar. I am grateful to be able to jump ITW each and everytime.



James,

Can't think of better words to describe the ITW.

Some of this stuff is better spoken offline so I am sending you a PM. I promise no more talk about my crotch :P.

Kris.

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I would also take this opportunity to point out that there is a "Ground Launch" area on the mountain, paraglider pilots along with a great friend and beginner BASEr with a Stiletto, local, launches from. He normally does nice swoops with his stiletto in to the LZ. Please don't give him crap.:ph34r:
take care,
space

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So, Here is my take on the best course of intervention that I have derived from my experiences and this thread.
Warn them and video not only the jump but the warning as well.

If one doesn't have video, then your word should be good enough since there is no one to contest what you say if they meet with less than optional landing situations.

Jumpers have the same rights a skiers or climbers on mountains in Italy AFAIK. The right to be rescued from peril at no costs. Doesn't matter if you are stupid, ignorant or a pioneer. But that does not mean that the place cannot be closed down. And ITW had a closure for 6 months after the first fatality. The locals had quite a few meetings with the sport ministry and as a result the rules of the ITW http://www.basearco.com,
came to be.
The word from the Ministry was: "You control it or we control it by prohibiting it. Here is your second chance".
5 fatalties since that first, Some Heli rescues and such.
I know one of the rescue guys by name. We are hanging on a thread there. Document the warnings to show that we are hanging with our part of the deal is my opinion.
What do you think?
take care,
space

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Payback for Gary Peek,
I used you! B|
Payback
Attention Skydivers: Jumping a SKYDIVING rig from objects is not just stupid, but stupid, and harms our sport.

I'm putting this in The BASE Zone for a reason, and that is to educate skydivers who may not know this important fact.

Sunday morning I woke up early at a famous BASE site and found friends getting ready for a jump. When the jumpers were almost geared up, some of the jumpers were calling to a guy over on the gear up area who was packing a SKYDIVING rig and who had no BASE jumps.

It turns out he missed the load, which is the only good thing that I can say about this incident.

A SKYDIVING rig ???

I walked over and asked him why he planned to do that, and he said something to the effect of "getting his blood pumping" or something like that.

I asked if he had informed the the Sports Ministry that what he was attempting to do was stupid and he said that the object "seemed to be OK with it". (Somehow I doubt that.)

I asked to never again consider doing something like that. He never did acknowledge his stupidity, but I could tell he knew better.

As I was walking away in disgust I saw Jane Blow from the IBA who frequents the ITW. I told her, “Jane, I have a little job for you!" She gave me a slightly suspicious smile, wondering what on earth could be going on that early.

I told her about the guy and she went over and admonished him for a few minutes. She said he didn't really look up at her. (No surprise there). Maybe he didn't want to see at the "IBA" on her shirt.

She said that he told her that what he planned to do was safer than swooping the pond!

Now, the point I want to make to skydivers is that if you see someone planning to jump a SKYDIVING rig from an object you need to do something! No one on that load did. Is it because they didn't know better, or because they didn't care?

For some reason people seem to think of cliffs as one of the SKYDIVING aircrafts, but I assure you they are not! They are an object and must be treated like one.

The other point I would like to make, is that if a person wants to lie and cheat enough, they can probably get away with something like that at the ITW (and perhaps other objects), because there aren't enough people to notice everything that goes on.

This is our sport, folks. We need to educate ourselves and keep each other from doing stupid things.
________________________________________
Signature Line:
It's not about rules - it's about safety. G.P. (parodied by base283 but rightfully so)

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good point Precisely, Documentation and 'protection of Your own' of what you already have is the only way because there will be no/little consequences for ill actions of the abusers. Self governing is the only way. Government can never regulate and control as efficient as the private sector. But once you loose control to a government agency for regulation & control it will be almost impossible to get it back.
.

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