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base283

Sabre 170,collapsible PC,2sec FF at ITW

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Skydiving gear skydiver, complete with collapsible PC, Sabre 170 and 2sec delay from ITW the weekend before the last (7-8th of Oct) weekend. There were 2, I did not hear which canopy the other jumped but that he did the same delay with a collapsible. What shall we do? Shall we do anything? What should you do if you see anyone with this config gearing up at the exit point? Should we do anything?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Take care,
space

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Yes you should do something if you find someone with this gear at the exit point.

I heard of someone having their wingsuit being taken off them at the ITW due to their complete lack of experience on WS and BASE, to me that is certainly within the line of acceptable.

Its not about being a killjoy, its not about policing people, its about stopping people not kill themselves.

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Wow, what can you do short of a physical confrontation ? BASE is suppose to be free and unregulated.
Only thing that could possibly solve any problem like that would be to have someone stationed 'Full-Time' at the exit point. For a Mandatory Gear Check and Mandatory Check of BASE License.
Do you think that will happen any time soon ?
.
.

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It was a Sabre 170, d-bag, collapsible PC....I was there when the dude got back to his Car. An experienced jumper (1000 plus jumps) tried to tell the dude very nicely that it was a bad idea and got the shrug and the "yeah, I know" ...sneer...from the dude.

The 2 sec delay was another dude with what looked like proper BASE gear or atleast a BASE canopy and a BASE PC. We were having a coffee at the bar when we saw these guys jump...only saw the landing of the Sabre and the second guy open so high it looked wrong immediately.

Kris.

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BASE is suppose to be free and unregulated.



OK, Ray so what do you do when you see person after person landing on the talus or in a tree on the hill after taking a conservative delay? Do you just shrug and ignore them? Try to explain to them that you need to decide early on whether you are going for the main landing area or the helicopter landing area? Explain to them that when they clear the bowl the crosswind will affect their canopy flight? So the locals and the guys like Tracy do this and what happens? More shit canopy control from the same people and another unnecessary talus landing.

It went pretty much like this : don't use your rear risers, crab towards the main landing area using your toggles, don't use 45 trick to see where you will land, when you see the hill panic turn and land in the trees. But don't worry if you can't get your canopy back from the tree because a local will go get it for you the next morning while you are sitting in the cafe drinking cappucino.

I don't think you quite understand how frustrated the locals there are getting. People are showing up with a DZ skygod attitude and no respect for the locals who try to give them good advice. Non-jumpers at the cafe were taking bets on how many jumpers on a certain load wouldn't make either landing area (two didn't after average delays).

The locals don't want to regulate anything, but unless they get proactive soon the authorities might do it for them. I think if the ITW was your local you would be out on the talus by now with your shotgun encouraging the high pullers to fly their canopies to a landing area.

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Wow, what can you do short of a physical confrontation ? BASE is suppose to be free and unregulated.
Only thing that could possibly solve any problem like that would be to have someone stationed 'Full-Time' at the exit point. For a Mandatory Gear Check and Mandatory Check of BASE License.
Do you think that will happen any time soon ?
.
.



What would you do if it was your local object?

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Wow, what can you do short of a physical confrontation ? BASE is suppose to be free and unregulated.
Only thing that could possibly solve any problem like that would be to have someone stationed 'Full-Time' at the exit point. For a Mandatory Gear Check and Mandatory Check of BASE License.
Do you think that will happen any time soon ?
.
.



What would you do if it was your local object?



The major distinction is in the local object.

Ray's local stuff is all pretty typical US objects. Mostly illegal, generally more technical than ITW, and a whole lot lower. If someone showed up at his local cliff with a Sabre in a skydiving rig, Ray wouldn't have to stop him. Darwin would do that. Afterward, the authorities wouldn't step in to regulate jumping--because they've already banned it.

An access sensitive legal site is a long way from even the most travelled sites in Ray's (or many other jumper's) area.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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An experienced jumper (1000 plus jumps) tried to tell the dude very nicely that it was a bad idea and got the shrug and the "yeah, I know" ...sneer...from the dude.



So Kris, what would you do if someone was there doing wholey inappropriate, massively dangerous jumps in complete contradiction to the well meant advice of exerienced jumpers? Really. I'm interested.

Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com

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The major distinction is in the local object.

Ray's local stuff is all pretty typical US objects



No, I meant, What would he do if it was his local object? As in if the wall in question was his local object.

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Exactly what I did Gus. Just let the people that are better at talking do the talking. And think about myself.

Everyone has their opinions as to what is dangerous and what is not. I know what you refer to when you ask this question. Go back one year and you think I said the same thing to James...you do not know the full story. I don't think there is any point in me explaining things either....you've already made up your mind. Besides my writing skills suck.

Kris.

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We were a much happier bunch when there were fewer "legal" sites to jump from. Sure, we had other problems like worrying about the image of BASE, and only because we cared, but we soon learned the lesson that no matter what anyone else did you could still have a happy career of "quietly" BASE jumping.

The poorest fellows now are the locals trying desperately to protect their fragile sites from the great unwashed. And oh boy, they get more unwashed every year. The current crop blasts sensitive sites all over Your Tube, thinks the previous generation of BASE jumpers are assholes, and seem to go out of their way to say they're out for themselves.

My advice to the "legal eagles" is give it up and go back to being "sneaky sparrows." You’re just going to make yourself miserable and start a lot of fights with people that would otherwise be your friends. These problems are your own fault – not the guy with the Sabre 170 and collapsible PC. You got into bed with the Man, so stretch out, and get comfortable. Hell, you're working for the Man!

The first generation of BASE went by the credo of let's follow natures rules, not man's rules. But you guys traded that freedom away for the convenience of "legal" jumps quicker than a hooker goes through an Army platoon.

BASE jumping is on the way to being regulated, and maybe quashed all together, if we don't chill out. You know, if we really put or efforts into it, we could make the whole world forget BASE jumping even exists. Imagine being back in the 1980s as far as the public knows, but you have 2006 BASE gear and skills. It would be mad times. But, sadly, we aren't cool enough for that.

History will bear out that "legal" sites hurt BASE jumping more in the end. And simply because it divides us and makes us less free. So tell those "people" who own your cliffs and bridges that they don’t own you. You might wind up with a few less jumps, and a few more fines, but at least you'll be riding on your own ticket.

And that's BASE . . .

NickD :)BASE 194

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pop his reserve, and steal his cutaway, punch him in the nose.

maybe hel figure it out then, on the hike back down.



That actually sounds almost appropriate! If it was here....our local big-ish cliff.....I might be tempted to do that just because it is much kinder than what MAY await such ignorance.

And hey.....its is a Sabre was it a Sabre 1?? I had an opening Sunday on my Sabre(1) 230 that was harder than any terminal punishment my Troll has ever handed me! The video is priceless.......as I scream in pain..half laughing, half crying.B|

Grrr, grumble, grumble fucking Sabre, grrrrr.......
SabreDave

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Awesome Kris.

Reading that, coming from you is just priceless. Utterly priceless. Glasshouses and stones spring to mind.....i don't know why.

:D:D

ian



I guess you are referring to my first post. I mearly wrote what I saw. Do you see me teaching/preaching? :)
Seems like you were gagging to throw stones yourself ;).

Kris.

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My criteria is purely selfish: can I live with myself when they spear in.

I only had 30 BASE jumps when I saw someone that I thought shouldn't be doing so jumping low shear cliffs. His exits were obviously (even to my inexperienced eyes) going to eventually result in strife. Experienced jumpers pointed out that BASE is all about freedom and self regulation.

Shortly afterwards, he had a 150 degree off heading on a generously overhung cliff, flew for a solid 5s (on shallow brake settings, it later transpired) with possibly half a line twist for the first half second, and straight into the cliff.

That fellow ended up being brain damaged to the point that he couldn't recognise close family.

Now I simply don't care if anyone thinks I'm an interfering old bastard. If I honestly think you're asking for trouble, due to your total lack of preparation and complete lack of respect, I will let you know all about it. ;)

Now if you're an experienced jumper pushing the limits, have at it! I'll be there with my camera. My attitude may well change as I know more and more super experienced jumpers hammer in pushing their limits, but to me that is the sport. I still mourn their passing, but it's somehow more palatable than ignorant newbies dying purely through shear stupidity and lack of education. (Purely my opinion, obviously).

That's how I live with myself.

I'm glad that at least you're still alive: some people just have bigger sacks of luck.

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I am not stating the Right or Wrong or in debate of consequences of choice bad or good made by those who play with the freedom that is there's.
BASE is the freedom to ' TAKE ' by anybody at any time Free-Fall & body flight from fixed objects of their desire.
That is what it is. That is all it will ever be.
.

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>>My criteria is purely selfish: can I live with myself when they spear in.<<

Yes, that's a tough one to suss out . . .

In a way we are all responsible for every name on the List. But some of us are more responsible than others. That guy with the Sabre is there because he knows it's a place to go and jump. And he knows it because we blab about it all over the internet. Just stop doing that and in the long run we'd each probably save a life or two.

We talk about the "explosion" of BASE jumping participation since around the year 2000. Do you think we experienced that just because a new crop of jumpers thought BASE was so cool. Hello! BASE was always cool, it came because we made BASE jumping more accessible.

I'm opting out of feeling bad for my own part. You never see me on Geraldo, or hawking Vids of myself, or editing the BASE Wikki, and almost every post of mine has a cautionary tale attached for those that can see it. The fault lays with those writing the "how to get into BASE" articles, those guiding skydivers to remote corners of the word, and those generally handing out BASE for money or acclaim.

There is one simple step we could each take. Just make it harder for them to find you. If someone finds his way to my door and says, "Nick, I want to BASE jump and I want to know what you know," he's in there. But he has to find me first.

Okay, I realize most of the newer jumpers had an easier time getting into BASE than I and my contemporaries did. It's why my view and yours is so different. We did it with no Wikki, no DZ.com, and no assurance that what you were about to do was already done by thousands of people before you.

So, in a way things should be better, right?

Well, they are not. Stop being so damn self assured of yourslvels. I've been paying attention for a long time now, longer than most, and it offers me no assurance of what might happen on my next BASE jump. I only know what has happened before, and sometimes an inkling of the reason it happened. And that's about as big as the life boat gets in BASE jumping.

And sometimes I genuinely fear for you guys out there swimming in the water with no earthly idea about how you got out there . . . And then you're all telling each other which way to swim?

It's a shame most of the old timers are disgusted with these boards and don't post. And yes I do feel like the Lone Ranger here sometimes, but you new guys need to humble up a little bit.

NickD :)BASE 194

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Reading that, coming from you is just priceless. Utterly priceless. Glasshouses and stones spring to mind.....i don't know why.



People are capable of learning and changing over time.

I don't know the specifics of any particular situation. But, if you keep backing someone into a corner, he'll probably never come out of it.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'm opting out of feeling bad for my own part. You never see me on Geraldo, or hawking Vids of myself, or editing the BASE Wikki, and almost every post of mine has a cautionary tale attached for those that can see it. The fault lays with those writing the "how to get into BASE" articles, those guiding skydivers to remote corners of the word, and those generally handing out BASE for money or acclaim.



Don't you work for the same company that has the lowest number of jumps as an FJC requisite? Not to mention an FJC that'll let you bring your own packers if you're only interested in the jumping part of the course?

Plus, didn't you start one of the first BASE boards?

Just let it go; times change. Jump with your friends, and try not to worry about the things you have no control over. People die. Organizations step in. But as long as my feet can reach an exit point, I'll find my altitude.

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Here's the rub...

Imagine if Apex, Asylum, Morpheus and company all stopped giving FJC's, after being swayed by Nick's argument, and Jaap took down the BASE Wiki, and I was somehow able to delete everything I've ever posted on the internet.

We'd still have people coming into the sport. Only now, they'd be doing it either (a) without guidance, or (b) with guidance from other folks who weren't swayed by Nick's argument.

Neither (a) nor (b) is better than the current situation.

I guess what I'm saying is this: There is no going back.

All we can do is try to sort out how to go forward, and each do what we think is best. It seems to me that just getting off the train isn't going to stop it. It's just going to put a different crop of folks in the engine, and they're likely to have even less knowledge and historical perspective than the folks who are there now.


Oh, and Nick, if you start to feel like the lone ranger, remember that Kleggo and Rick H. are still regulars here. :)
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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but you new guys need to humble up a little bit.

NickD :)BASE 194



So do you old guys!

I have an exam tomorrow so can't type out a well written response right now....maybe tomorrow. I would say that alot of that post was bullshit. Also, do you not work for or affiliate yourself with a major BASE gear manufacturer!?!/!? The ones selling the shit to these people? Offering jump courses commercially? And, does APEX not have one of the lowest requirements for such said courses?!?!

I may be new (2.5 years) but I didn;t learn to jump from no fookin' Wikki or website.
SabreDave

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