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base283

Sabre 170,collapsible PC,2sec FF at ITW

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...hawking Vids of myself...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know Carl Boenish didn't mind showing his videos to people either.

I'm sure he would have been thrilled had YouTube existed in his days... :)



Pointing out what Carl did back in the day is unlikely to give us much insight into what he would have thought or done were he still alive now. Even Carl could have changed his thoughts on BASE, or anything else. That applies to Nick, too, so I don't think your "didn't you start a discussion board" has much real merit. It's possible that the experience of running that board, or posting on others, has much to do with his current opinions.

People change their minds. We learn. We grow. It's one of the things that's cool about us.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...on Geraldo, or hawking Vids of myself, or editing the BASE Wikki, and almost every post of mine has a cautionary tale attached for those that can see it. The fault lays with those writing the "how to get into BASE" articles, those guiding skydivers to remote corners of the word, and those generally handing out BASE for money or acclaim....



Honestly, I think you're lumping too many things together there.

I'm always going to be in favor of people sharing technical knowledge, or building better gear. Those are the kinds of things that save lives.

Teaching courses...writing articles...sharing technical information...none of those things keep me from sleeping at night.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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People change their minds. We learn. We grow.



Very true, and I don't necessarily disagree with Nick. But he did say:

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I'm opting out of feeling bad for my own part.



...and...

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...you new guys need to humble up a little bit.



In light of that, I sensed some irony. I don't think the old guys were very different. It's just a new world these days.

I think Nick's sentiments are largely in line with my intention to shut BASE WIKI down a while back. I still struggle with it today, but in the end I decided that pro-actively sharing knowledge is the lesser evil.

As for the Sabre guy...

Imagine that hypothetically he had killed himself. Does anybody have any thoughts if there would have been much value in pointing out that he was using inappropriate gear, or are such remarks to little value to the law-makers that will just throw us all in one big pile of suicidal maniacs?

I'm seriously curious. Climbing faces much the same problems. Most of the time, search-and-rescue (and climber's access society in collaboration with park services) can figure out if somebody was being moronic, or if there was genuine danger.

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...figure out if somebody was being moronic, or if there was genuine danger.



Ofcourse that implies that I am more concerned with the consequences for the object than the life of the actual jumper himself. I suppose I'm a little bitter that way, but if somebody wants to take a two second delay off a terminal wall using skydiving gear, I'm not going to lose sleep over said person's life. It's the object I'm more worried about.

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Imagine that hypothetically he had killed himself. Does anybody have any thoughts if there would have been much value in pointing out that he was using inappropriate gear, or are such remarks to little value to the law-makers that will just throw us all in one big pile of suicidal maniacs?



In Italy? I don't know.

My guess here in the US is that it would be the latter:
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the law-makers...will just throw us all in one big pile of suicidal maniacs...


-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'm no longer working for Apex BASE as of about three months ago. I had "words" with a few "customers" and Apex decided the customers were right and I was wrong.

It's all cool . . .

I first worked for Todd in the very beginning of Basic Research and then again after they became Apex. Apex isn't exactly the company I watched Todd start so many years ago. But I'm very proud of everything he has accomplished. In the early days we all thought we were doing the right thing, like many of you do now. However, and I don't know how many times I can say this, I don't know it all, I learn as I go. But, I've lost my taste for selling BASE for money.

In the late 80s and early 90s the calls I got from BASE jumpers at Basic Research were from people I usually knew already. They were experienced BASE jumpers and fun to do business with. Today the calls are from mostly clueless skydivers who asked me what they need rather than tell me what they want. That was a big sea change in the sport and not one I signed up for, or was willing to support. You've got to do a bit more homework than that to get passed me. But, nowadays it's come one come all.

Look, I was there when modern BASE started and nobody knows more than me that there's no's turning the clock back. I'm talking to those who want to give just a little thought to where we've been and where we're going.

And whoever said Carl Boenish would have been uploading to You Tube is wrong. Carl was first and foremost a commercial photographer, and he mainly came up with the jumps at El Cap in 1978 because he simply thought they would be cool to film. But as he became more deeply involved in the sport he named BASE he started to realize the responsibility of what he was showing other people. Carl died in 1984 when the BASE world was a whole lot different than today. And I believe if Carl was still alive he'd be posting right below me and telling you to get stuffed on that one.

In a way we had an excuse to be stupid about BASE jumping in the beginning.

What's the excuse now . . . ?

NickD :)BASE 194

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And whoever said Carl Boenish would have been uploading to You Tube is wrong.



Since you have known him personally, I'll take your word for it. I stand corrected.

I must admit; I had to chuckle when somebody recently posted a link to his jumping video that was hosted on MySpace. Of all places...

But then again, that just means I've become the very snob I don't want to see in others.

One last point I would like to make; although we continue to be worried about the explosion of the sport, it doesn't seem like the inexperienced and uninformed are killing themselves at a rapid rate. A quick look at the last four years of BASE jumping shows a lot of experienced people pass away.

So although we may not have an excuse to do 'stupid' things anymore, I think the statistics actually show that a lot people continue to poop their pants at the exit point.

And so we should...

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what kind of opening did he have? on heading? was the slider up or down?

Am I gonna get banned if I call this guy an idiot?

here is another question: would it be still cause for intervention if the guy had a normal base PC, and was planning to track past the rock and then open high above the talus??

I recently went hand held off of a terminal wall slider up with a two parachute system. I had a 180 and decided (after missing my toggles) two things: I would not do that again and that seatbelts are probably better.

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Hey guys, this is Rick Harrison and after 35 years of skydiving and 25 years of BASE jumping, I have learned there will never be an absolute answer to this dilemma. Back in the early 80's, we actually enjoyed publicity so long as it was good, like the Bridge Day event. We also saw the problems of legal uncontrolled sites as early as New River 82 when Smitty and I had to talk a drunk student skydiver with only 5 static line jumps out of jumping at Bridge Day despite his drunker girlfriend egging him on to jump. The next year he sought us out and thanked us. I for one believe like Nick that legal sites and the super gear we now have, has contributed to unqualified jumpers in the sport. As I've said for 20 years the gear is getting so foolproof that fools are getting into the sport. But the freedom part of BASE is the individual decision regarding a persons Celebration of the Human Spirit. Unless you have a jumper who is so wrong or so wasted they may likely kill themselves, I don't think it's our place to actually stop a jump.
Carl always realized this sport would grow and knew all too well that a few irresponsible jumpers could screw things up. It's always been true, just more so now. FACT is, the sport will never be quite the same as the "old days" when the first 50 BASE jumpers probably had over ten years and a thousand skydives at the beginning. Since we can't go back we need more good FJC's to teach the hard lessons of the past. I must say since Joy and I started issuing the BASE numbers, I have been VERY impressed with many of the letters we get where people started with a great FJC like Marta and Jimmy and Tom's and others. I'm also impressed how many of these new jumpers actually start slow and keep a smart steady pace before pushing the harder ones. Their FJC's seem to teach them to be more aware of their limits and we need a lot more of that. As far as the Saber 170 jumper, he was crazy for doing a short delay at ITW with that canopy, but we aren't police. It often depends on if they are experienced enough to know their gear and their skills. If you feel they are not skilled or do not know the risk, I feel you have a humanitarian duty to warn them but probably not to tackle them. That is just the compromise we need to live with in BASE. It will get more difficult as more super newbies see our sport as a carnival ride, but we have to do our best to educate them that death can come quickly in this sport. I'm sure Carl would feel the same and I think it is only in the most dangerous situations that we should interfere with the ultimate act of freedom to decide for yourself once you have been warned.
Great Discussion Guys.
Rick Harrison
BASE 38
Night BASE 13

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Imagine if Apex, Asylum, Morpheus and company all stopped giving FJC's, after being swayed by Nick's argument, and Jaap took down the BASE Wiki, and I was somehow able to delete everything I've ever posted on the internet.

We'd still have people coming into the sport. Only now, they'd be doing it either (a) without guidance, or (b) with guidance from other folks who weren't swayed by Nick's argument



I'm not certain that these two conclusions are true. I'd like to offer the following for consideration.

I think Nick raises a valid point in that the cost of entry into BASE has been lowered over the course of time. Information about the sport and how to get into it bore a higher cost of entry, in previous years. Therefore new jumpers had to have more original inspiration and motivation to get into the sport.

Given the current mainstream media publication of the sport via movies, advertizements, these forums, etc, the mass public has an increased awareness of the sport which didn't exist before. Consequently the skydiving community has an even greater awareness of the sport and (to some extent) is coming to embrace it as part of a natural progression of jumping.

Since there is a general increased awareness of the existence of the sport, and a heightened one amongst skydivers, (those mostly likely to want to get into it,) and people are curious beings more and more people are seeking information about the sport. This is where the crux of Nick's ideas lie.

In the past, information about getting into BASE was harder to obtain and fewer people were seeking it. Now many people are seeking information about BASE and it's easily available.

The fact that the these forums, the wiki, etc, exist is tacit approval and (for some) active participation in a culture that believes in publicizing information about the sport. The fact that site names are loosely masked is a small consolation to the fact that the community itself has published all the information necessary for one to make their first BASE jump, independent of any mentoring. Which, in some ways, seems to be an indirect goal of these forums, wikis, articles, etc.

Perhaps these mediums will have reached their peak of success (by some definition) when individuals with no previous canopy experience can read them, teach themselves everything they need to know, order a BASE rig online and get into the sport without having to meet another jumper. At that point it will clearly be the success of the information available, it's exactness and thoroughness. Then one can definitively say that said person would not have survived without it. Although the question is, would they have tried without it?

That is the real catch-22 of the situation. Some assume that people with no experience are going to get into the sport with or without this information (and guidance), while others note that the reason people with no experience are getting into the sport is because of this information is so readily available which is to say they wouldn't be in this situation had these boards, wikis, etc, not been so accessible.

I think attitudes tend to change with experience as well. New jumpers celebrate and appreciate the methods by which they, personally, entered the sport, and wish to protect them and continue using them, until they feel more comfortable with their jumping. While those who are experienced with good local objects, and no commercial or popularity interests, would likely rather see less publicity about their local objects and perhaps the sport in general.

A somewhat interesting concept is that training methodologies mix book learning, lecture, and physical training to teach BASE jumping. Typically these courses are taught at the Perrine (a fine training object with a significantly reduced risk of death or injury). As information more easily available how has that mix shifted over time? What direction is it heading? What other trends are directly (and/or strongly) correlated?

BASE maybe undergoing a Malthusian progression toward critical mass. But we'll just see where it goes. It's not any one person's sport and that's part of the beauty of it. :-)

(btw I recognize that my own experience is recent and that I hardly qualify as a 'pre-explosion' jumper.)

-=Raistiln
find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;



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After reading the replies, I realize that the we as group have a chance to become exactly what we (old timers) were always against. It reminds me of the joke: "What is a Conservative? It´s a Liberal 20yrs later.".
It´s about the freedom to choose our own risks and not have them dictated to us.
We were the crazy ones 25yrs ago. RW jumpers were the crazy ones 50yrs ago. Skydivers were the crazy ones XXyrs ago, etc. Each offshoot will either, grow or wither and die. Education is the key.
I personally watched 2 skydivers die 3yrs apart (#38 and #39) on BASE jumps. Same exact scenario. Same exact results right down to the point of impact. I am trying to find the silver lining behind this cloud. Maybe the silver lining is that if enough people do jump with skydiving gear and die that this would be enough to end the trend or vice versa, it might be a viable option.
Now thats food for thought.
hmmmmm,
take care,
space

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For those who are on the "Get BASE quick" plan, I don't believe FJC's lower the barriers to entry. In fact, if any of those folks were to take a FJC, I think it would actually slow them down, at least by the hours spent in the course, with someone standing over them saying "no, you can't do a gainer yet."

I'm not so much worried about the people who actually go to the effort of seeking out formal instruction. It's the people who don't do that at all that concern me--they end up doing a gainer as part of a 3 way for their 7th jump and thinking that's a conservative progression (true story).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Oh Kris.

You're a bright guy, I know you can see the irony in the parallels here, don't be so disingenuous.

You (like the guy with the sabre170) chose a path many considered VERY risky and ill-advised, and like this guy you ignored a lot of sound advice from some highly respected BASE jumpers. I don't know what JB said to you that day but i'm sure he wasn't thrilled that your first BASE jump was going to be a wingsuit jump under the mentorship of a guy who himself had about 10 jumps. You have been fortunate to come out the other side unscathed.....we both know a guy who took the same path as you, with the same mentor who didn't .....right?????

I had to laugh at the irony there, that's all. Not having a go, you seemed like a nice guy at the funeral.

ian

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BASE maybe undergoing a Malthusian progression toward critical mass. But we'll just see where it goes. It's not any one person's sport and that's part of the beauty of it. :-)



Makes sense, didn't even know there was such a word for it.
The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

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In the past, information about getting into BASE was harder to obtain and fewer people were seeking it. Now many people are seeking information about BASE and it's easily available.

The fact that the these forums, the wiki, etc, exist is tacit approval and (for some) active participation in a culture that believes in publicizing information about the sport. The fact that site names are loosely masked is a small consolation to the fact that the community itself has published all the information necessary for one to make their first BASE jump, independent of any mentoring. Which, in some ways, seems to be an indirect goal of these forums, wikis, articles, etc.



I'm not sure I followed that correctly.

Are you saying that the profusion of information has reduced barriers to entry, thereby increasing the participation level?

And as a corollary, are you saying that if a significant portion of those offering information and/or training currently withdrew from the market, the incoming participant numbers would decrease (perhaps dramatically)?

If that's what you are saying (and I'm not sure it is), then I think that you are wrong.

I know of at least one person with less than 20 BASE jumps who is currently in the process of establishing a commercial BASE school (at least, that's what he's thinking of it as--it's more a "how to jump from paragliders with BASE gear" operation, but regardless, graduates of such a program will then go out to try their hand at fixed object parachuting). Those sorts of things are going on now. Any amount of withdrawal from the training process by people or groups with higher levels of fixed object parachuting experience is likely to only create a training vacuum, which will increase the rate at which new training programs (of better, worse, or equal quality is still to be seen and debated) are created.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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We talk about the "explosion" of BASE jumping participation since around the year 2000. Do you think we experienced that just because a new crop of jumpers thought BASE was so cool. Hello! BASE was always cool, it came because we made BASE jumping more accessible.



A decade ago,
I was BASE when BASE wasn't cool.

Regarding popping rigs, yes it has happened before. The big wall in Colorado was visited by three of my friends (BASE 36, BASE 38, and BASE 175) in the early 1990's. They had skydiving rigs on. One of them (BASE 175) was so drunk he was staggering to the exit point while the other two were horrified not only be that but the fact that he was getting ready to launch from the wrong deadly point. The other two new about the consequences of a mistake there since one of them had to crawl out for 12 hours from a foor injury there from before. They tackled him, popped his reserve, and told him forcefully they weren't going to have anything to do with him for putting them in the position of having either to deal with him bouncing or rescuing his arse out of that canyon.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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Who is training them?



THIS MESSAGE BOARD, AMONG OTHERS![/B]

Lets all try to remember it's not just NPS nazis and Press that are surreptitiously monitoring this forum-- hundreds of Darwin candidates and newbies with Sabres (or worse) are out there right now, misinterpreting everything said on here, and not fully understanding the risks of what's involved with BASE.

If we have better, safer equipment and methods out there for us to use, why WOULDN'T we want to use them?

Personally I think this guy should be given one chance to listen to reason and when and if selfishness prevails and he decides to jump anyways, cut risers, toss his kit in the trash and chain him to a fence somewhere in central Austrailia.




























.

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Someone in this thread said that BASE is about freedom. You can take this two ways:

1 - you are free to be a dickhead and jump without taking notice of ANY good intentioned advice that is generally based on hard won experience and . . . . .
2 - you can be free and choose to prevent an accident / fatality / negative interaction at your site. This would involve something like cutting the rig to bits before the guy jumps it. When he gets the shits, just shrug your shoulders in that SkyGod kind of way. . . . I am a BASE pirate / vigilante. Free to roam the world and stop people from bleeding on my cliffs!!!!!!

In the end, if people like that die, who cares???? They quite obviously don't! Hence they are not entitled to hold absolutely no expectation that you should care for them.

Freedom in BASE jumping is purely and utterly about being able to jump objects. IT IS NOT about being free to be a high risk / ignorant / selfish / inwardly focused arsehole. There are ethics involved. The ethics don't inpinge on your freedom. THey actually give you more freedom - - - - to live your life longer - - - - - - - and to share your wonderful experiences with others - - - - - more often - - - - - - and longer.

Dying due to ignorance is NOT freedom - you have robbed yourself of further life experience (unless that is your intention).

Making a site more difficult to jump due to acts of stupidity is nothing to do with freedom. That steals freedom from others. That is selfish. That is capitalistic in a metaphoric kind of way.

Who is responsible for the inevitable accident???? The person involved in the accident. It is that simple. All people have equal and free access to information about BASE jumping. They also have access to opinions, stories, statistics, etc. They have enough resources available to be able to make conscious and correct decisions. They cannot blame video's, courses, FJC's, etc.

If they choose not to . . .

Who cares??????

They don't.

Hence, neither should anyone else.

Pull their reserve handles and cut their main suspension lines.
Then charge double for your rigging services.


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...you new guys need to humble up a little bit.

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In light of that, I sensed some irony. I don't think the old guys were very different. It's just a new world these days.



The sport is different today. The participants are different. The attitudes are different. People are pulling multi aero's and doing low pulls and roll overs and . . . VERY EARLY in their jump careers. And this is all with a few practice jumps and watching some video's. There is NO humility in that. There is no common sense in that. There is no longevity in that. And if you need convincing, look at the f%&*ing list.............

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Imagine that hypothetically he had killed himself. Does anybody have any thoughts if there would have been much value in pointing out that he was using inappropriate gear, or are such remarks to little value to the law-makers that will just throw us all in one big pile of suicidal maniacs?



Yes, disassociation helps.... But not much.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Sorry to hear you're not with Apex anymore, Nick. I hope the split was amicable...

It's hard to believe that someone would take the chance this guy took given what is known today. At the same time, I've had people ask me if they could go jump with me using a Sabre190 knowing I had less than 50 jumps (which wasn't that long ago)...I politely told them that was not a good idea. When people try to convince me it's just like a skydive I let them know the only thing it has in common with skydiving is you use a parachute and the toggles are still used for turning and braking. Other than that it's NOT the same.


If I met someone I didn't know at an exit point with inappropriate gear or attitude, I would tell them it wasn't a good idea and then I'd step back to a good vantage point and turn my camera on. It's their choice. I'm not going to make it for them! If it was a friend I would pretty much do whatever, short of kicking their ass, to convince them not to jump. If they still decided to jump I'd step back to a good vantage point and turn my camera on. Again, it's not my choice...

If I was going to jump something that people were telling me I shouldn't or telling me to do it different then I planned, it would be my decision to listen or not. Anything beyond advice would just piss me off and make me want to prove the person wrong!

For the most part the BASE community realizes they don't know it all and they really don't want someone's death on their hands because of their actions or inactions. Does it really make sense to resort to physical actions to stop someone from doing something because you think it's a bad idea or the result may prove fatal? Isn't this what the government (NPS specifically) is doing that we are all pissed about?

I feel people have the right to live, or die, as they see fit. If they choose to live their life in ignorance and not heed useful information that is readily available, perhaps being yelled in their face, so be it!

I also have the freedom to choose whether I help clean up their remains or not...quite truthfully, I probably would!!!

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> Skydiving gear skydiver, complete with collapsible PC, Sabre 170 and 2sec delay from ITW the weekend before the last (7-8th of Oct) weekend...
——————————————————————————————
Just out of curiosity: was this bloke an Italian or a foreigner?
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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Ditto Tony.

If I was there with them I'd have just said "guys, I have been in the sport # of years, I have # of jumps, and it's my 0.02 that what you are about to do is very, very dumb, however I do not own your lives or this site but it would be a shame for you, your families, and the BASE community if you went in due to a very preventable cause"

If they still wanted to go there is nothing PHYSICALLY I would have done. It's a free world...actually the ITW is on a more free part of the world than the US.
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

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and when and if selfishness prevails and he decides to jump anyways, cut risers, toss his kit in the trash and chain him to a fence somewhere in central Austrailia.



disclaimer: the following is creative fictional literature to illustrate my viewpoint on this, and is in no way personal or directed at anyone, real or imagined.

Yea!! Lynch him! we should have lynch mobs in every major city, like the Brown Shirts of BASE, a roving gang to lay down the law, more feared than the man/police. Then it will get really fun when you go to 'cut his rig' he pulls a weapon then leaves you in that same trash can you were gonna leave his rig in.

I agree with tfelber, ultimately people are free to do as they wish, there's no legal way to stop that. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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I heard something about similar dickheads last week... I called #726 to inform him to keep an eye around... :S
I don't know if these are the same guys, but something here starts to stink...
I'm looking around for more info's...

3,2,1,C-YA!!!
V.
BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104

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...hawking Vids of myself...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know Carl Boenish didn't mind showing his videos to people either.

I'm sure he would have been thrilled had YouTube existed in his days... :)


Carl inspired many to jump, true.
how many are now memorialized on the list?

if he had not died, his opinion would have evolved.
no one knows what he would think today.

so, if you share your stories/pictures/videos with the world, be aware you might be inspiring someone to their death. your video might encourage someone to an accident that leaves their child without a parent.

harsh?
yup, just like most BASE realities...

p.s.
I thought Carl filmed other jumpers, not himself. thus he promoted (possibly wrongly) the sport, rather than himself.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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