Not telling on/turning in on each other rule

[eb66to77 0]

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Watched a doccie last night on the Black Hawk Down incident in Mogadishu and your post reminded me of the Ranger Creed: Never leave a man behind.

"I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy"

That's what I'm getting at. This is, in one form or another, in every creed that matters. I knew a few of the Mog guys.

[ncjumpjunkie 0]

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I think seeing them through it shows a lot for character and helps out in the recovery if there is one. I was seen through mine and it helped knowing that my bros were there. Maybe it’s the way I have grown up in the various lifestyles but sticking with has always proved better than splitting the blame.

Here are a few examples of things that I have seen that are inexcusable and irreversible;
-Leaving after an accident having the only vehicle, even if there is prodding to do so. This just shows that you have that seed planted and will bail in the future.
-Putting newbie skydivers off an object with absolutely no idea what you are doing and almost killing them, then allowing the blame to go on someone else.
-Recruiting newbie skydivers to BASE jump.
-Forcing your BASE antics on people through your video camera at the local dz. This is jsut bad form to me. Playing a vid on the monitor for all to see is not what I am talking about.

Sticking with your buddies, knowing your opposition, and treading lightly. Anyone with half a personality can figure out how to deal with people and logically deduct whether it’s worth the trouble to hang or go on their own accord.

This reminds me of someone I once knew!!! Nice post Bro!

SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI

[Peej 0]

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"I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy"

This is, in one form or another, in every creed that matters.

Amen to that. Unless a buddy is seriously injured and can't be moved there's no way i'm leaving him behind, in any sport or outdoor activity. And if he can't be moved i'll assess the situation and either go for help or sit tight based on his condition.

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I knew a few of the Mog guys.

Wow. I have the utmost respect for everyone involved in that incident.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[TomAiello 25]

I think that rationally I have to agree with Ray that it's easier to manage one story, and one person in custody. So if only one person is needed to care for the injured, I'd generally say it's best for everyone else to split with the gear.

Several years ago, I was struck by something Adam Filipino said, discussing this topic.

"We play a high stakes game called BASE. We are also involved in being human beings."

Thinking about this, I realized that I just can't leave an injured guy after a jump (or heck, any other time, really), unless that's the only way to summon help. I, personally, am just not wired that way. I'm not sure what's at the root of this, but the bottom line is that I wouldn't be happy with myself if I left an injured jumper behind.

So I don't begrudge those who bail. And if they're going, I'll send my gear with them. Rationally, I think that getting people out of harms way is a better course.

But I also understand those who simply must stay, because I'm one of them.

It's a tough topic. It's something that really needs to be discussed with your jumping group before you jump. And, like everything else BASE, it's got a large element of personal choice involved.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[eb66to77 0]

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I think that rationally I have to agree with Ray that it's easier to manage one story, and one person in custody. So if only one person is needed to care for the injured, I'd generally say it's best for everyone else to split with the gear.

Several years ago, I was struck by something Adam Filipino said, discussing this topic.

"We play a high stakes game called BASE. We are also involved in being human beings."

Thinking about this, I realized that I just can't leave an injured guy after a jump (or heck, any other time, really), unless that's the only way to summon help. I, personally, am just not wired that way. I'm not sure what's at the root of this, but the bottom line is that I wouldn't be happy with myself if I left an injured jumper behind.

So I don't begrudge those who bail. And if they're going, I'll send my gear with them. Rationally, I think that getting people out of harms way is a better course.

But I also understand those who simply must stay, because I'm one of them.

It's a tough topic. It's something that really needs to be discussed with your jumping group before you jump. And, like everything else BASE, it's got a large element of personal choice involved.

I agree that there might be a couple courses of action that people can take after something bad happens and I know that talking about the what ifs can be hard enough to talk about that sometimes the talks don't happen.

I would have to bow to more experience in this but will say that self preservation is the true showing of a person's future intentions.

More than likely there will be people who will bail on demand. That's too bad but it will show you who to jump with. I don't possess the care to find two jammers and two guys who are gonna stick around to make sure I'm cool.

[K763 0]

I've only been on a few illegal jumps, and on my second one I hit a tree, landed hard, and shattered my right tibia. I don't think the guys I jumped with had any thought of leaving me, just as I had no thought of calling 911. They helped me out of my gear, out of the street, and to the nearby emergency room. It all turned out fine, no busts, even though we hadn't discussed this before hand.

I ground crewed recently for another illegal jump, and as soon as the jumpers were over the fence the local said "in for a penny, in for a pound", and we all three agreed that if something unfortunate happened we'd stick around and see it through.

Now I absolutely have the presence of mind to discuss this with the people on the load before jumping. Some people say "get the hell out of here, one of us going down is enough", and others of us couldn't imagine leaving an injured or dead jumper to lay there alone. I'm with Tom; I'd be the one staying while the rest bail with the gear and cameras, unless someone else on the load wanted that slot. The important thing is having it all organized before hand.

Another good thing to do is have your personal desires written up and signed and in your wallet. You know, a disclaimer or waiver to let authorites know that you did this of your own free will, you do not want any entity sued for damages to your person, a DNR if that's what you prefer, no heroic measures or life support, and your blood type and medicinal allergies.

Recently there was discussion on a thread about what people thought their chances were of getting hurt or killed on a BASE jump. I was amazed to see how many people think they are bullet-proof and don't need to plan ahead or take measures to ensure no major fiascos ensue. Every time you jump you take your life into your own hands, and if your skill or luck run out, you're in a world of hurt. I think one of the best things we can do as BASE jumpers to help our activity avoid so much discrimination and supression is to be responsible for ourselves and make our arrangements ahead of time. This includes preparing your family or next of kin, talking to the jumpers on the load before the jump, and having appropriate insurances to avoid costly bills for yourself, your loved ones, or the government to pay on your behalf. If we take these simple but important steps, when the inevitable incidents occur we can avoid looking like crazy freaks with no regard for the consequences of our actions (even though many of us are quite proud of being crazy freaks)!

Ok, I digress...this is a good thread and a great discussion.

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings!
Karen

[base283 0]

I, Space, Have ratted out my BASE Bro's to the Authorities.
I had no choice, Their copter was buzzing around the LZ approach and using our LZ at the TW of Italy. The pilot of the carabinari (sp) buzzed them on the ridge 30m away, The Polizia thanked me. Don't try this at USA home.
Probs arrive when the jumpers (70%?)have cameras doing illegal stuff. Back before the turn of the century, I did a jump , escaped the rangers in Yosemite and my friends got busted and held true to the code. Aint so easy with vid and stills to not tell.
think,
take care,
space

[leroydb 0]

There have been a good bit of great replies, some good some not so good. I feel this thread has been good as a whole and for those of you that are mentors or FJC teachers, well heck all of us can learn something from this thread.

One specific change is that I wrote a letter and put it in my wallet in case something happens at an object.

Le Roy

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[Skinflicka 0]

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There have been a good bit of great replies, some good some not so good. I feel this thread has been good as a whole and for those of you that are mentors or FJC teachers, well heck all of us can learn something from this thread.

One specific change is that I wrote a letter and put it in my wallet in case something happens at an object.

Le Roy

Thanks for the critique. I'm sure the entire community values it as useful feedback.

With regard to the note. Are your crew expected to rifle through your shit when you inevitably fuck things up?

Tom Aiello once wrote regarding the subject of what you would do if someone went in. I think it applies to all cases including injuries and not just splats.
Tom said something like...I will do whatever it takes for me to get a good nights sleep. That for me was the first interesting departure from the accepted wisdom. The victim is generally unable to make a decision or suffering to that point that their state of mind cannot be assumed to be trustworthy. In that event, the removal of the victim from the decision makes the most sense.

If you jump with me, know that I will react in the way of MY choosing not yours. I will do whatever is necessary for me to live the rest of my life with the knowledge of the consequences of that decision bearing on my conscience. Don't even expect me to be consistant. I will be consistant in that I will base my decision on the context of the situation but the outcome may change.

For instance, Leroy, for the quality of your posts and the volume of your bullshit and your needy, jumping in the air crying "look at me, look at me" style of making inane and banal responses to other posts in every thread...I will sleep just fine when I leave you in the tree to be picked up by the pigs.



I will now enjoy my 30 day enforced loss of privileges. Cy'all in July.

$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

[basehoundsam 0]

BAHHHHAhHHHAHHHAAAAAA...... see you in 30..........

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[base704 0]

Love it...

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I will sleep just fine when I leave you in the tree to be picked up by the pigs.

I won't leave ya Leroy...I will go to great lengths to avoid ever jumping with you, and therefore will never have to leave you hanging...

Edited to say: Thanx Skin! Your personal sacrifice will be forever appreciated...

You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I will sleep just fine when I leave you in the tree....

How will you leave him in a tree when you wouldn't even jump with him?

rl

[TomAiello 25]

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I will now enjoy my 30 day enforced loss of privileges. Cy'all in July.

Personal attack. 14 days.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[base515 0]

Outstanding!

May we live long and die out

[blitzkrieg 0]

dude, you never cease to keep my laughing.

glad i came back to read all this!

[Luke 0]

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I will now enjoy my 30 day enforced loss of privileges. Cy'all in July.

Personal attack. 14 days.

Twice the value at half the price.

[RhondaLea 3]

It was a very clever, very funny post. On the other hand, I wonder if any of you has ever read Heinlein's discussion of humor in Stranger in a Strange Land.

Anyway, I'll bet anything you guys want to name that Le Roy would never leave any of you.

rl

[Treejumps 0]

A sacrificial post. Very nice work. (Stands applauding)

[McDuck 0]

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With regard to the note. Are your crew expected to rifle through your shit when you inevitably fuck things up?

For instance, Leroy, for the quality of your posts and the volume of your bullshit and your needy, jumping in the air crying "look at me, look at me" style of making inane and banal responses to other posts in every thread...I will sleep just fine when I leave you in the tree to be picked up by the pigs.

Amen.

Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28
"I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC
Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school.

[base570 1]

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Anyway, I'll bet anything you guys want to name that Le Roy would never leave any of you.

rl

Has already happened to someone in the area... still want to bet??

[KevinMcGuire 0]

I heard of an incident that happened before I started jumping where one jumper broke his back at the bottom of a canyon and his buddy just covered him up in his parachute and left. No phone calls to rescue services or cops, nothing. just left him for dead.
I later met the guy that left his buddy and I refused to jump with him or even stand in his presence. I don't hang with shit bags.
If that where me that he had left at the bottom of that cliff, then as soon as I was able, I would become the instrument of Karma the moment I saw him again.

Sure, minimize the impact of impact by the ways already mentioned in earlier posts, but never leave a breathing brother or sister behind

[RhondaLea 3]

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Anyway, I'll bet anything you guys want to name that Le Roy would never leave any of you.

rl

Has already happened to someone in the area... still want to bet??

I'll bet, but if I lose, I'm paying Skin, not you.

And if this is a rehash of the sonic bullshit of several months ago, I don't even want to hear it. Either he left wounded or dead behind or he didn't. The convolutia (yes, I made up the word--it's short for convoluted minutia) is too much for my small mind to comprehend.

rl

[NickDG 23]

I don't know what happened in that case, but it might be considered in the context of the time it happened. While legal opportunities to jump have increased when it wasn't like that there are many for whom, one more bust, and they are in very deep shit.

Jumping with those already busted X times for BASE jumping and on probation. The first time it's funny because nine out of ten times it's a new one on the judge. The second or third time and the system overlooks the nature of the offense and it's only a matter of passing this way too many times. Throw in a family and job not to be lost and you have a BASE jumper loving the sport but playing with fire.

The thing with "the Pact" is two, or more, experienced BASE jumpers can get together and agree that each other's goods are their own look out. It's a thing that made some early BASE jumps even possible. It's a corner of the sport that's dark and clammy, but one used to defeat our enemies. In some cases it gave us a measure of control over one more aspect of things when any of those aspects could defeat us.

The Pact seems outdated, in these modern times, but I see the sacrifice it took to get us here. Swayze jumping the tower alone, the Pick whistling in off Half Dome, Mike Allen just wanting to get to that next tower . . .

NickD BASE 194

[ncjumpjunkie 0]

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Anyway, I'll bet anything you guys want to name that Le Roy would never leave any of you.

rl

Has already happened to someone in the area... still want to bet??

I'll bet, but if I lose, I'm paying Skin, not you.

And if this is a rehash of the sonic bullshit of several months ago, I don't even want to hear it. The convolutia (yes, I made up the word--it's short for convoluted minutia) is too much for my small mind to comprehend.

Not wounded or Dead but he left a freind hanging about 150feet off the ground on a tower guyed wire. I was called in to assist in the 9 hour rescue with the fire department and the cops there, then I had to drive the guy to the police station while being followed by the cops so he could be charged. Damn thing was that I wasn't even on that load. But this does fall in line with "The SONIC Bullshit" you so don't want to hear about.

SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI

[KevinMcGuire 0]

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I don't know what happened in that case, but it might be considered in the context of the time it happened. While legal opportunities to jump have increased when it wasn't like that there are many for whom, one more bust, and they are in very deep shit.



NickD BASE 194

You know I love ya Nick but I have to call bullshit on that. I did not start jumping in the era of the legal sights. My first 300 jumps where at night. That is the time in which I started jumping and that is the context in which I formed my opinion.
There is no shit deeper than being broken, and left for dead. For what? Jail time or a job? Fuck your job. You can get another. Fuck jail time. You will get out one day. And if you have a family depending on you to be employed, out of jail or alive, then grow up and make responsible choices or have the courage to face the consequences. Don't make your buddy pay the ultimate price because your scared of the can. When the buddy left for dead stops breathing, he can never be replaced. EVER.

Cowardice is cowardice and in my book it is inexcusable regardless of context or time.
I suppose that the real lesson here is choose your friends carefully.
I hope that you your self would never advocate bailing on a bro, particularly in light of the piggy back ride you received all those years ago.