metal cutaway handle

[Staso 0]

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why not use the same for reserve then

Because there is a much lower risk that a metal d-ring reserve handle will cause an early reserve deployment simply though it's own weight because the pressure of the reserve pc spring and closing loop on the ripcord will hold the weight of the d-ring. The same cannot be said of the cutaway system.

wouldn't it still make sense to reduce risk even further with lighter loop anyway ?

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[Ron 7]

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less drag was never my intention. better grip was. and using your argument about plastic loop cutaway handle, why not use the same for reserve then ?

Look at your reserve cable....Even if you have a "pillow" you still have a metal handle.

Metal will not fail. Plastic can.

At least thats my reason...Bill Booth would be the guy to ask. What ever Bill says....over rules my opinion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mr2mk1g 10]

Some people have concluded that and either jump a pillow reserve handle or soft loops.

A reserve takes what, usually somewhere in the teens of lb’s to deploy? Does your d-ring weigh that much? What is the risk that it will exert that much snatch force? Weigh that against the benefit of having a good hand hold.

The point Mr. Booth has tried to convey to you is that whilst that may be an acceptable risk for a reserve system, the risks are much greater for a cutaway handle as the force required to pull the handle before the canopy is deployed is much lower than on the reserve system. Thus the balance may well swing in the opposite direction for that handle while remaining acceptable for the reserve system.

While the handles are the same, the systems to which they're attached are different. Thus there are different risks attached to your handle choices on each side of your kit, despite the fact that they are both subjected to the same forces on deployment and during freefall.

[RogerRamjet 0]

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Just the weight of the handle is enough to pull the cable through the three rings causing the release of the canopy.

One other thing to note is the possibility of a one side release if the cables only come part way out. Now you have a potentially hellacious opening, a wildly spinning mal, and a cutaway handle which is "somewhere."

Since all that would be VERY unexpected at pull time, how long to realize what happened, locate the cables to complete the cutaway and get your reserve out?

Like I said earlier, Bill spent a lot of time designing this thing, like several months, he has some idea of what can go wrong and why. Oh, and he has also had the last 30 years of seeing the system in use every day and still recommends the same pillow setup for the same reasons. That's good enough for me....

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[mjosparky 3]

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What's your take on Bill Booths ascertion that a metal cutaway handle if dilodged can more easily extract the cables from their housings?

There are a few people in this sport that I listen to without question.

Bill Booth is one of them.

If he says its a bad idea....Its a bad idea.

Toatally agree Ron, I was just interestedin Sparkys' view on it, that's all

Squeak,

I have been jumping with 2 "D" ring handles since my first 3 ring rig. My first piggy back rig had 2 ripcords and that is what I am comfortable with. Have never had either side come loose and I have been in Crew wraps and some real wild funnels.

But thats just my opinion and what I am comfortable with. I am not saying it is right or wrong.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[upndownshop 0]

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The whole reason for having three different shapes of handles on a rig is to remind you that they have three different functions. That way, tactile sensitivity backs up any decision your conscious mind is making. Use all your senses on every skydive.

Growing up in the sport in the 70's playing "cutaway" really screwed me up later in skydiving.
shot 1/2's, blast handles, sos, pvc, rol, hand destroy, throw out, red, metal... what did i miss?
Because i took my time committing to jumping, 1st jump in 1984, then my 130th in 1993.
I was totally confused on which handle does what.

So i came up with this

"Right Now"...."Left Last"

Now I dont even care what color or shape it is.

Some day I will get to use it, i have reached a few times but never had to yet.

Carry on....

[CygnusX-1 42]

This thread has got me thinking, but first some disclaimers. I do not personally know Bill Booth but I do respect (and admire) what he has done for us in skydiving. But I also don’t follow advice blindly, hence the phrase, “If he says so, that is good enough for me.” I make my own conscious decisions and will live or die by them.

I just purchased a new Racer 2k3 with both low profile metal D handles. It surprised me to read that there was some concern about the cutaway handle falling out by its self if it became dislodged so I decided to run a test. I put on my rig as I would normally wear it, removed the cutaway handle from the MLW and measured the amount of cord from the top of the handle to the bottom of the conduit. I then jumped up and down 50 times and measured the distance again. It moved about 1/2 cm (~1/4 in). I then took off the rig and holding it by the shoulder straps shook it violently for 30 seconds. Again it moved another 1/2 cm (1 cm total).

What does this tell me? Based on a SAMPLE OF ONE - with a metal handle you don’t need to worry about it falling out due to gravity (the extra mass of the handle) if it becomes dislodged. The handle does move and will eventually work its way free. But it won’t happen right away – at least not on my rig. I unfortunately do not have a pillow cutaway handle to try this same experiment with as a baseline. Maybe someone else could do that and report on what they discover.

[Squeak 17]

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This thread has got me thinking, but first some disclaimers. I do not personally know Bill Booth but I do respect (and admire) what he has done for us in skydiving. But I also don’t follow advice blindly, hence the phrase, “If he says so, that is good enough for me.” I make my own conscious decisions and will live or die by them.

I just purchased a new Racer 2k3 with both low profile metal D handles. It surprised me to read that there was some concern about the cutaway handle falling out by its self if it became dislodged so I decided to run a test. I put on my rig as I would normally wear it, removed the cutaway handle from the MLW and measured the amount of cord from the top of the handle to the bottom of the conduit. I then jumped up and down 50 times and measured the distance again. It moved about 1/2 cm (~1/4 in). I then took off the rig and holding it by the shoulder straps shook it violently for 30 seconds. Again it moved another 1/2 cm (1 cm total).

What does this tell me? Based on a SAMPLE OF ONE - with a metal handle you don’t need to worry about it falling out due to gravity (the extra mass of the handle) if it becomes dislodged. The handle does move and will eventually work its way free. But it won’t happen right away – at least not on my rig. I unfortunately do not have a pillow cutaway handle to try this same experiment with as a baseline. Maybe someone else could do that and report on what they discover.

Nice work trying to run a test on it.
BUT
the test conditions are nothing like IRL situations, you don't have buffeting winds, pushing and bumping people on climb out or various other influences that you have in freefall. So I woun't not count this as a 'fair' test.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[FrogNog 1]

I would say that was a fine test for force generated by accelerating the mass of the handle (and net force generated by accelerating the mass of the ripcord).

But I also agree that wind testing was not accomplished and may be very important. So I suggest off to the wind tunnel with a rig. (I'd remove the parachutes, though.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[sundevil777 93]

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his word is good enough for me

He also recommends large 3 rings instead of the mini rings. Do you follow that advice?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mnealtx 0]

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his word is good enough for me

He also recommends large 3 rings instead of the mini rings. Do you follow that advice?

My new rig has Type 8 risers with large rings and pillow cutaway...and the Skyhook. I'm not interested in anything that makes me LESS safe in the air...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[crazydiver 0]

Ya, i've seen that handle design on Strong and Sigma tandems before too. Great design. Just as low profile as a regular pillow with added leverage for pulling.

Cheers,
Travis

[CygnusX-1 42]

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I would say that was a fine test for force generated by accelerating the mass of the handle (and net force generated by accelerating the mass of the ripcord).

That was exactly my point. Just by having the handle come free will not cause the ripcord to fall out. I tried to simulate the motion of the handle in airflow by shaking the rig. That may or may not be a valid test. However in freefall, I propose to you that the D handle is better than a pillow. It is heavier and has less surface area than a pillow handle. Therefore in theory it should be more stable (not move around as much). Think of it this way: How much does your antennae on you car move around while driving down the road? There is very little surface area to the relative wind. Now add a flag - lots of surface area and very little mass. How much does it move now?

All the other factors (climb-out, people snagging handles, etc.) are a different matter. Those are reasons why the handle might get dislodged. I'm starting after the handle has been dislodged. Is there a problem or not? I say no, and that (amongst others) is why I chose the design I did.

I'll leave the actual testing of the cutaway handle designs in the wind tunnel to those that manufacture rigs. We can't take away all of their fun.

[riggermick 6]

I propose to you that the D handle is better than a pillow. It is heavier and has less surface area than a pillow handle. Therefore in theory it should be more stable (not move around as much).



A metal ripcord handle (on a cutaway system) will have a pendulum affect in FF (due to it's mass) as it will move at a lower frequancy than a soft handle (due to its lack of mass)This increases the amount of cable that is pulled out by every swing of said mass. The more it whips around the more the cable is extracted, I've seen it happen. Soft handles by contrast tend to move around at a much higher frequancy and end up fluttering at the end of the housings and not moving the cables along due to there being no weight (pendulum).

That being said, both systems have their pro's and con's. While a metal handle is easier to grab it is also easier to snag. A soft handle can fold under the MLW webbing and become trapped there making it impossible to locate, a metal handle by contrast is all but impossible to turn under (try this on the ground (while wearing your rig)with both your handles, you'll see what I mean.

I'm not taking a particular side on this issue as I believe my comments above illustrate, but I prefer the soft handle. It's just a personal preference.

Mick.

[CygnusX-1 42]

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A metal ripcord handle (on a cutaway system) will have a pendulum affect in FF (due to it's mass) as it will move at a lower frequancy than a soft handle (due to its lack of mass)...The more it whips around the more the cable is extracted, I've seen it happen.

I stand corrected. I agree that both systems have their pluses and minuses. In the end, it comes down to which system we as individuals choose to jump with.