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Maurix

Which "Beginner" Suit?: Phantom 3 vs Swift

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I think for me at least its just the time it takes to correct it if somethings wrong. I absolutely loved my phantom 2, one of the best wingsuits ive ever owned. It showed up with the wrong color on part of it. I really didnt want to wait another 2-3 months for it to get fixed, so I just kept it. I think a lot of people have had a similar experience.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with phoenix fly products. They make quality stuff, and ive never owned a suit from them I didnt like. Squirrel has the production capability that revolutionizes the wingsuit game though, and waiting 6 months for a suit now just seems crazy to me.

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In case such an error was made, the fix would have take 1-3 weeks to sort. Not 2-3 months.
Its a shame such own assumptions are pushed as truth (from back in 2009/2010 when the P2 was made, vs the year 2014 we live in) without the actual experience of allowing the manufacturer the chance to fix it.

Every manufacturer has its problems, especiay when selling higher volumes of suits.
I know I hear equal amounts of bad mouthing, complaints about ill fits, rudeness in communication, inflation issues etc on 'the other one' from 'friends who had the same experience'. But is all that stuff about actual issues or just 'friends' pushing personal preference through badmouthing of products they dont prefer pushing.

I put through about 150 or so orders for PF this past year without any problems, and even in rare cases of customer screw-up regarding measurements, a fitting solution was always provided. Which paints a way different picture from what some seem to try and promote (while flying and promoting other brands).

Let the flying do the talking. Try various suits, see what you like.
It sure beats the mid-evil tar and feather treatment based on hear-say and negative bs in effectiveness...that disguised brand wat stuff gets old...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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mccordia

In case such an error was made, the fix would have take 1-3 weeks to sort.



I can attest to this. Got a G3 in early 2013 that was a bit too short by my standards, though admittedly I wear my wingsuit longer than most. Asked for a replacement an inch longer, and got it in like 2 weeks IIRC. Never got charged for shipping on that replacement either. :o
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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imsparticus

You already started the shittalk when you suggested there was a manufacturer that couldnt and wouldnt make a mistake.



1. I've never said such thing
2. Even if I did, how whould that be a shittalk?

imsparticus

If you think your experiance is the only possible outcome that has and is to be your nuts



Again, never said that. And exactly because I had some experince which is totally irrelevant in the thousands of orders I asked you to PM me if you want the details.

As I wrote in my post, i'm not bashing/defending anyone. It was not directed at any manufacturer, as all make great products. I have flown PF for 2 years and I have nothing bad to say about their wingsuits. Only the opposite. They are top quality and fly super well! I have flown Squirrel and my feelings are the same

I may have used wrong words, sorry. The point was that if you wait for a wingsuit for a few months, and then it comes not as you like, and you have to wait another few weeks to have it repaired (that inludes shipping) it can be quite big of a deal.

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Zeemax

I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just get it made the right size to start with?



I gave 3 good reasons in my original post.

i) Performance. It is a lot easier to size a suit perfectly by taking it in instead of trying to add to it. If you build it a little big you have material to play with, as you know rarely will 2 suits be sewn identically and some are not even cut identically.

ii) Resale. If I get a suit made a little big then it can be unpicked later to fit larger folks. Did this with my R-Bird as the buyer has a bit more of a beer belly than me.

iii) Winter Weight. This is where YOU have me confused, because a few posts later you claim Winter Weight is one of the reasons Phoenix Fly cannot always deliver a suit that fits. If you have a couple of inches around the belly that can be taken in you can adjust for winter\age weight.

My original post prompted an educated PM to me about the Swift being baggy not around the waist\belly but in the arms. My comments wouldn't help one bit in that case. I am talking more around the mid section and the back of the legs. It isn't very easy to take a suit in for height issues or design differences. I am talking about the same kind of changes you would get made to a suit jacket.

Anyways, if you don't like the sound of it don't do it. Works for me.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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I dont understand why any beginner wingsuiter interested in possibly wingsuit base jumping would buy a suit that doesnt have punch out sleeves. Ive personally witnessed them save people from serious injury or death. Why phoenix fly hasnt put them on the phantom i dont know...but i wont recomend a suit without em. And yes, im a squirrel team pilot...see you in the mountains ;)

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ScottyBob

I dont understand why any beginner wingsuiter interested in possibly wingsuit base jumping would buy a suit that doesnt have punch out sleeves. Ive personally witnessed them save people from serious injury or death. Why phoenix fly hasnt put them on the phantom i dont know...but i wont recomend a suit without em. And yes, im a squirrel team pilot...see you in the mountains ;)



i suppose so that i can learn to fly the FUCK out of my P3 in my sleep in the skydive environment before i then upsize slightly to something a tad bigger and with punch out sleeves to start getting ready for the mountains???
yup. that is my reason!
gravity brings me down.........

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Nice point. Might as well start the progression on the right kind of format. Otherwise like switching from a 7 cell to 9 cell at the same time as a downsize.

If you are going to take wingsuiting into the BASE world then every jump you ever did before counts.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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ScottyBob

I dont understand why any beginner wingsuiter interested in possibly wingsuit base jumping would buy a suit that doesnt have punch out sleeves. Ive personally witnessed them save people from serious injury or death. Why phoenix fly hasnt put them on the phantom i dont know...but i wont recomend a suit without em. And yes, im a squirrel team pilot...see you in the mountains ;)



I don't know, bro, but I've got over 2700 wingsuit jumps and I still keep a phantom hooked up to my wingsuit rig 90 percent of the time even though I have much, much larger suits. They are sexy and delicious and work fantastically for those of us who fly on our backs as much as we do on our belly and routinely fly circles around chumps who only go straight with their wrists touching behind their backs in tarps. Carry on.

Azul sends

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ScottyBob

I dont understand why any beginner wingsuiter interested in possibly wingsuit base jumping would buy a suit that doesnt have punch out sleeves. Ive personally witnessed them save people from serious injury or death. Why phoenix fly hasnt put them on the phantom i dont know...but i wont recomend a suit without em. And yes, im a squirrel team pilot...see you in the mountains ;)



If you do want the full explanation, the injury or death preventing saves are more personal view than actual fact. Looking across the board, no single brand seems to be immume to injury or death. In recent accidents, squirel also frequently pops up. So those kind of quotes/statements are quite subjective.

And there are quite a few people with negative experiences on your preferred suit feature as well, where the loose sleeve inverted (the bulging, often negative leading edge is quite visable in most videos) leading to armwing collapse and unexpectef tumbles and turns. I know Ive witnessed quite a few people fly like drunken drivers, having difficulty making the suit behave on heading, let alone on sharp turns. Perhaps not their 'style' in your view, but in a tighter fitting sleeve (have seen people modify the fit on the arms/body) it made a huge difference.

A feature that may make reaching up slightly more positive, but creates sloppier flying characteristics, that can put a jumper in more dangers flying as well, doesnt look like a feature worth having. Theres sadly also quite a few examples on that side of the 'escape sleeve'. The focus PF has is on flying agility, clean turns and having suits that follow the movement of the body down to a single inch, for precision (similar to not having a ton of slack on your toggles on a canopy). Precision that can also keep you out of harms way on exits and flying. If you're buying a suit for flying, than making sure each design aspect fully guarantees the flying itself being sharpest/safest is our highest preference.

And in our view, said feature adds a danger to flying, by introducing a seperation of suit and body in response thats far from wishfull. FYI, the PF venom feated stretching sleeve parts in the past. Hearing experiences of various people, seeing one jumper (in another brand) nearly impact due to the stretch material tearing and turning him into the cliff, and another one do unexpected backflying on exit due to inverted leading edge...it showed us it wasnt the direction we prefer to go.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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My friend in his aura is not able to reach his toggle unzipped... I know other people with X's who have the same "problem". Up your knee and you ll be able to take the back riser with every suit. And i have time to unzip both arm before canopy is fully open. Just train for fast unzipping and pull high enough

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alygator

My friend in his aura is not able to reach his toggle unzipped... I know other people with X's who have the same "problem". Up your knee and you ll be able to take the back riser with every suit. And i have time to unzip both arm before canopy is fully open. Just train for fast unzipping and pull high enough


of course you do with a skydive rig you probably have 3 second snivels but Id like to see that with base gear and not get spun up
BASE 1519

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alygator

My friend in his aura is not able to reach his toggle unzipped... I know other people with X's who have the same "problem". Up your knee and you ll be able to take the back riser with every suit. And i have time to unzip both arm before canopy is fully open. Just train for fast unzipping and pull high enough



please come back when you get your arm skin stuck in the zipper from trying to unzip quick. In any environment, having access to toggles and risers without needing to do any other action as a huge advantage. I do agree with pull high enough but if you have the choice...why not give yourself an advantage.

if you do get a Phantom 3, do not train for "fast unzipping" unless you will find yourself in a world of hurt.
IHYD

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I second what Scotty-Bob, Heath, and Jewbag said. After a line-twist in my V4 that necessitated use of my arm-wing cutaway to avert a pretty sketchy situation, I can unequivocally say that instant access to risers would've been more beneficial.

Following the near cliff-strike, it also took months for Phoenix-Fly to send me a replacement arm-wing cutaway cable, despite multiple emails to Jarno, Macca & Robi.

I am now a Squirrel convert.

And no, Alygator, lifting my legs in my V4 doesn't get me anywhere near my risers or toggles and I have long arms.

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surfers98

Following the near cliff-strike



Not a BASE jumper, so flame away, but I wonder in general why anybody would open close to an object in a wingsuit. Can't you use the wingsuit to... get far away from the object? ;)

Even if I wanted to get into proximity flight, which I probably never will, I'd still make sure my lines allowed me to get really far away before deployment. Is that impossible at some sites, or do people just not care?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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quite often your landing areas (especially in the states) in the BASE environment are riddled with boulders and tall trees. Imagine yourself in linetwists...or simply with an un-intended heading opening...the few seconds your unzipping your arms could be used to fix those problems. Also, pulling high is not always an option in places where your not technically sposed to be jumping...I'll leave it at that.

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I found the sleeves so easy that I started holding risers during opening and didn't realize it til I saw it on a belly mount video. I grab right away to help stop line twists as the are more likely to be induced by body swing in the base world. Also, a really high base opening could be something like 800-1000 feet, and that's on the high side. In those cases when you landing area is very small, flying the wrong direction for even a few extra seconds while dealing with line twists or even unzipping can lead to an off landing or injury. I've had to land in line twists...twice, because not making a landing area was not an option and I chose to control the canopy above the twists. This is a very much less likely occurrence when you can reach up and control and opening right away. If I have a choice of one over the other, I actually unzip my leg wings first.

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For future reference, and for what it's worth since you have already "converted" ;)

I have replacement parts (Phoenix Fly parts that is) on hand in the U.S. at any given time and can easily send almost any parts necessary rather quickly. This includes but is not limited to cutaway's, zippers, snaps/tabs, extra fabric for repairs, thumb loops/hand loops, 5.10 soles, track suit Velcro inerts, etc. Also if repairs are needed I have a guy in Colorado that can do ALMOST (honestly can probably do anything) anything as far as wingsuit mod's and repairs go. Jewbag can attest to this ;) As well as many others.

Also I am happy to answer any questions or concerns with any order or needed repair to the best of my knowledge in the event you are having trouble getting in touch with someone from PF direct.

I will say, though, cutaway cables are rather easy for most any rigger to build if they have the raw materials (webbing, Velcro, cable).

Anyway, just throwing it out there :)

Adam Foster
Leading Edge
BASE921@hotmail.com

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So I guess this thread turned pretty fast from "who has experience on both suits and can tell me the difference if there is any" to "our comany is better in support and everything" even though I have the feeling pf guys are defending their company and customer the squirrel company ...

Oh well nevertheless thank you for the few people who flew both suits and told us their experience with them ... it personally helped me decide.

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