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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
NWFlyer replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
Sangi, thanks so much for the candid description of what you're going through right now. I think a lot of people who thought like you did have the attitude of "I'm not afraid of dying." And that's not an unnatural feeling, especially when you're younger and/or have no dependents. Even at 40, I feel like I'm not afraid of death, per se; I've lived my life well, openly, and honestly and if tomorrow's my time, I can say that I lived it with no regrets. And though I know I've got family and other loved ones who would have to grieve my death, I don't have any children or other dependents to leave behind. I don't fear death for myself, because, well, I'll be dead. What terrifies me most about this sport is exactly what you're going through - a traumatic (but ultimately non-fatal) injury that will take months or years to recover from. I've been through a trauma and recovery before (not skydiving related) and all things considered, that was a relatively "minor" trauma. But I know for sure that I don't want to go through that again, and I definitely don't want to take it up a notch. I don't wish my death on my loved ones, but I also don't wish putting them in the position of long-term (or even permanent) caregivers. I haven't eliminated all the risks of dying or traumatic injury, but I try to mitigate it as much as possible by jumping a big, conservative canopy, sitting out when conditions are marginal, and choosing my jump sites and jump partners thoughtfully. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke -
Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
trigger replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
Thanks for the update on your recovery . I think your last post does more to illustrate the results of bad decision making than the video and hopefully will reinforce the warnings often given to the madskillz crowd the frequent these forums. VB take note. Heal fast Sangi .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. -
>i'm scared now! You sound more and more like Sangi (the old Sangi) every day.
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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
Sangi replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
Swooping is completely unforgiving when done wrong. Watching someone crash is one thing and it's good it scares you, it makes you be more careful. But if people like me (the way I was before) could also feel (for a while) the immense agony and pain and so many health problems without such crashes then they would be really scared off to even touch the front or yank the toggles close to the ground. Only now I can appreciate my realization, I regret that I was so stupid and cocky all this time to learn this lesson the hard way.. simply put peeps, crashing sucks bad, so bad that you never wanna experience it, believe the stupid Sangi this time, no bullshit this time for real.. "Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean -
I wanted to say, when I said, I thought Sangi, I meant no disrespect, just that, I am extremely new jumper and new to this forum, the sangi situation was pretty much going on right when I got here, I read all about it, and it did have an effect on me, as it should on all our new jumpers. I do hope he recovers, and gets in the air soon, and from what people have said he is coming around, and he should know people have learned from his mistakes beyond just him. I don't know enough to chastise anyone, so I'm not ripping on virgin-burner, also seems like a nice(funny) guy. I'm just saying for me, it was tough jumping with this guy, and I probably will not again. I ended up going to the tunnel and getting some coaching in there. (plus it was very windy so I had no desire to jump in those winds)
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There could be more to this story what if the guy is 120lbs... and all they had to rent was 230s? I don't think i would ever jump a 99 or let alone anything less than a 170 for a long time, but i am saying that some people do learn faster than others and yes 50-60 jumps isn't much but we still don't have all the details. ALL i wanted to know was if he landed it fine or busted his ass. A few more details would be nice too like how the remaining of his day went and stuff but damn you dont have to bite my head off.... Please go read all the threads pertaining to Sangi...STAT!!!!
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>To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi! I think Sangi's learned a lot over the past few weeks. V-B might be a better example now.
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To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi!!!!
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Ask you DZO why he thinks it a good idea to let someone with less than 100 jumps jump a camera and fly a 135 against every recommendation out there. If you're genuninely worriedd about this, the way to deal with it is to simply refuse to be on a plane with the idiot. If enough people do it, he'll either be told to get his shit together, or be sent packing. You may miss a couple of loads, but you won't be in the sky with a flying crater. Also, have him read the 'Watching out for Newbies' thread in this forum. When he says 'I'm not a newbie', or 'I've got mad skills', tell him to get his head out of his ass and to talk to Sangi, the subject of that thread - and he had 3 times the number of jumps your friend had. He was standing up all of his landings fine too - right up to the point he femured in as we all predicted. Have him read the incidents thread and look at the photo of Sangi lying in the grass, struggling to breathe and broken. Your mate is on the same path. Edit: Spikes - this is why newbies are so dangerous to themselves; they simply don't have a full enough understanding of skydiving to know what risks they're taking. It's not quite as simple as his weight, or even his skill - even if they guy is 120 pounds, smaller canopies fly and react differently to big ones, even at the same wingloading. You might get away with it for a while, but you're reducing the margin for error in learning to almost zero. Combine that with the camera flying, and to me it shows a dangerous attitude, or a lack of understanding of the risks he's putting himself and others in. However, if you said this to him, I'm prepared to put $20 on him saying one of the following: "It's not a distraction" "I just turn it on and forget about it" "I only use it for solos" "Hot shit canopy pilot X says I'll be fine" "I fly conservatively" "Some people learn faster than others" "I'm attending / have attended a canopy class" "I'm not going to swoop" "The old guys are just jelous of young guys who are better than them"
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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
billvon replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
>Posting something in a manner that indicates you know it to be fact can >lead to problems. You can come to believe you do in fact have the >knowledge and skills you post about. Agreed. Virgin-Burner is a classic example of this. He gave a lot of advice to Sangi (which fortunately he took) and has now decided that therefore he's an expert - and does not need to listen to people who give advice. Or more accurately, has decided he does not need to listen to people who give him advice that he doesn't like. -
Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
virgin-burner replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
I dont think there is any way to get through to the future Sangis of this sport. Its still too abstract on video, especially if the video is of some one that you do not know or care about. In order to succeed in high risk environments, you must have faith in yourself and your ability, and you must believe at a sub conscious level that you will survive no matter what. You may consciously know there is a chance that you wont, but you can never truly believe this, because if you do, you stop. This personality trait is common to everyone who takes part in high risk activities, its like a spectrum with guys like sangi at one end and non-skydivers at the other, but make no mistake, it is a spectrum and we are all on it. For example, your non skydiving friends may think that you are crazy and reckless for doing any kind of skydive, in the same way that we can look at anyone futher towards the risk end of the spectrum and say the same of them. Who is right? And how do we decide? I find it funny how many of the people posting the 'I told you so's' further up this thread could well be the subject of this kind of thread themselves pretty soon. But of course, it only happens to someone else! +1 “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda -
Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
matt002 replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
I dont think there is any way to get through to the future Sangis of this sport. Its still too abstract on video, especially if the video is of some one that you do not know or care about. In order to succeed in high risk environments, you must have faith in yourself and your ability, and you must believe at a sub conscious level that you will survive no matter what. You may consciously know there is a chance that you wont, but you can never truly believe this, because if you do, you stop. This personality trait is common to everyone who takes part in high risk activities, its like a spectrum with guys like sangi at one end and non-skydivers at the other, but make no mistake, it is a spectrum and we are all on it. For example, your non skydiving friends may think that you are crazy and reckless for doing any kind of skydive, in the same way that we can look at anyone futher towards the risk end of the spectrum and say the same of them. Who is right? And how do we decide? I find it funny how many of the people posting the 'I told you so's' further up this thread could well be the subject of this kind of thread themselves pretty soon. But of course, it only happens to someone else! -
Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
Scrumpot replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
He knows (now) - and was told SEVERAL times before, that on his previous "swoops" (such that they even were), that he was already DANGEROUSLY "in the corner", and seen to be "digging-out" each and every prior. However, because he simply continued to get away with that, he just plain (until now) REFUSED to let himself prior - realize any better. On this (fateful) jump, he simply reduced his prior ZERO "margin(s)" to SUB-ZERO, and really - NEVER even realized how/what he was doing. Same kinda mentality I think, but from a different aspect/issue with something else saw just this past weekend. I approached a jumper in a loading area I noticed with a gear alteration/issue - (another lowbie/newbie), and I pointed it out. ...The INSTANT response: "I've had it this way before, and it's okay (worked out so far)." Sometimes they just don't even know, what they don't even know - and "getting away" with something MARGINAL for a couple of times can really prove to be the WORST possible (set up for disaster!) combination. I was able to pull the jumper aside and speak with them - got them to CONSIDER a little bit better and further, and HOPEFULLY got them to see the light to make a correction to the situation before they learned (as Sangi has only now done here) the hard way. I only wish that somehow, SOMEONE could have effectively gotten through to Sangi here, similarly. I've heard it over & over again - that there are SOME, that you just cannot (effectively) ever get through to, and that they really need to "learn their own lessons", for themselves. I dunno. I just can't bring myself to accept that though. So, regardless of (sometimes) continual or repeated frustration, I still - at least keep on trying. Sangi - Now that you have experienced what you have, and you are going through what you are ...can you think of ANYTHING, or even any "style" perhaps of approach from anyone, that might have gotten through to you, BEFORE your incident has now occurred, which might have effectively helped you AVOID it? You now have a unique potential opportunity here, to maybe help OTHERS hopefully, avoid similar fate. In short - was there ANYTHING Sangi, anyone could have ever said or done - that you can think of now in retrospect, that might have been more EFFECTIVE? Hope you heal well and fully, and that you are in fact, able to return. I'm sure you will this time, progress with "pace", grace and humility, and hopefully further thereby - you can also become an effective mentor, to others. I know that if you do, and if you try - you will have my full support! FWIW Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone -
Apparently someone at Sangi's DZ also thought he was OK under his Wing, and that turned out just great didnt it. He was spot on to trust those guys
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Hey Christoph. Glad to see/hear that you were this time, actually able to save yourself - from the bad situation you put yourself into! Whew. Pretty freaky/scary, huh? What did Sangi's on-dz instructors and mentors think of him, flying on the canopy(ies) that he did, and (apparently too) "allowing" him to do so, until he pounded in? - Do you know? coitus non circum - Moab Stone
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>I know Sangi realizes it now. Agreed. Never thought I'd see the day that Sangi was being used as an example of someone who learned wisdom, but he did - and I hope people like VB can learn the easy way, instead of the way Sangi did.
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This really bums me out. I've said before that this isn't about people giving you a hard time-- it's tough love because people try to look out for one another in the sport and do what they can to prevent another crater in the ground. Isn't that what you did for Sangi? Didn't everybody give you an 'attaboy' for it since it probably saved his life? Just seeing your reply like this makes me sad. I really hope you're right with how confident you are in your skills. As others have stated, they just hate to see an incident thread like Sangi's, except in the parentheses it could say VB instead of Sangi (and worse...maybe even the name of whoever else got taken out with you). I just really wish you could see people are trying to help you. I know Sangi realizes it now. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)
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Listen to yourself, man. Is everyone else who posts their concerns wrong? I very much doubt it. Believe me I can understand your anger at all these people getting on your case when in fact you're doing just fine. I have been there, I have had those feelings...BUT... you might want to re-read your posts about Sangi prior to his accident and then think about his responses and what happened. He probably had the same leave-me-the-fuck-alone feelings and look what happened to him. If you have nothing to hide, why all the deleted posts and profile-scrubbing? I think deep down you know you're wrong. I fully expect you to either ignore this post or rant against it - that's your problem. Glad you didn't ACTUALLY kill yourself. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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Been lurking this Sangi / VB stuff; quite amazing that VB still won't allow himself to see it. Oh well. I predict it will either be a crater and a 'I told you so' that he hears, or a crater and a 'I told you so' that he doesn't... hoping for the former. Also interested to note that there isn't a big point being made of: - High rate of descent in the spin (high wingloading) - Very shaken up jumper - 2.5k feet to deal with a mal? At 'normal' opening height, that's a fatality right there VB: no idea who you are or how 'good' you are at landing your canopy, but the the way you dealt with that mal shows how little experience you have - and that jump numbers and experience DO have a role to play. Even if you can carve the course on your rears, you still need to be able to deal with your chosen wingloading in a mal scenario - and experience of dealing with mals on more forgiving wingloadings willl help with that. Experience and jump numbers won't guarantee you learn the lessons you need, but they will give you a much better chance all other things being equal. So as dramatic as it sounds, I think I agree with you: you died. Do you see that? Or was it just a dramatic headline for your post? Edited for typo "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent
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JUMP RUN 1979 - Canada / Florida film
piisfish replied to TREEZ's topic in Skydiving History & Trivia
thanks a lot for that film. for me the scary part is the premature deployments, seems that was a "normal" malfunction at the time and the "lower than Sangi" hookturns scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM -
>how about you do your job as a mod and stop this? I recall not long ago you were doing the same to Sangi, and then congratulating yourself for doing it after he pounded in under a larger canopy. So I think I will apply the same standard to you as you applied to him.
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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
wolfriverjoe replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
Nah, wait for next season to start. We'll have another poster attacking Sangi and Docpop of being canopy nazi's who just don't understand how things work. I hope he heals quick that video was scary. Sadly this is all too true. Sangi, I'm glad you survived your mistakes. And I'm glad you learned from them and are brave enough to admit it. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
>>if you are a true friend, you will not judge me by my words NOR by my actions >>really; you will take me for who i am. fuck the rest! >Re-read this when you're sober and you'll maybe understand how truly silly it is. Indeed; the opposite is true. An acquaintance will laugh at your jokes, shake their head at your misdeeds and think "well, too much trouble to talk to him about it." A true friend will kick your ass even if you don't like it. A very true friend might even do it often enough to save your life - even if all you ever give him is shit about it. Sangi has, against many predictions, both survived his mistakes and picked up a lot of wisdom from them. Can you do the same?
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Re-read this when you're sober and you'll maybe understand how truly silly it is. I'm saving our FB chat for the future, just like you did with Sangi. I'm glad you saved yourself n' all, and I hope I never have to post the conversation we had this evening. You've hit that 200-300 jump Skygod status that a lot of us (including me) went through at some point. I hope you survive it. Congrats on saving yourself, congrats on finding the main/freebag/keeping handles. Always nice when the training kicks in and you do what needs to be done!
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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
PiLFy replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
That was freakin brutal to even watch... Sangi, I think you should post the uncut video, along w/your list of injuries. Hearing you gasp for breath, & others trying to attend to you, may help keep some other young hotshots from hurting themselves. I hope you eventually make a full recovery, Sangi. I'm sorry this happened to you.
