crutch

I am going to jump in here, no reply to a specific quote, just some general ideas. One, charging more money to get the rating just means people aren't going to bother with it. Dealing with the FAA doesn't mean anything, since they can easily be swayed into some other type of thinking by any fast talker. We had that situation here a few years back when some non-PRO rated jumpers got the contract to jump into the statdium. They convinced the FSDO the PRO rating wasn't what it was cut out to be. The FSDO came out, watch them jump into the stadium on a practice jump and gave them "stadium rating". It took all kind of work to put this back to rights, as they were the only ones allowed to jump into the stadium for awhile. This same group had someone land in the stands on one of their demos, the jumper blamed it on the zer0-p canopy he was flying, their is an addedum still on our waivers that says no zero-p canopies on stadium jumps. Two, the bandit jumps will get out of control. If it cost $200 to $300 dollars to get a PRO Rating less people are going to do it. Does that mean that Joe skydiver is still not going to jump into his buddies cookout, I don't think so. Three, we are sitting here arguing about this petty stuff trying to put another level of beaucracy in the mix and the thing that is going to ground us is USPA letting the insurance go. Sorry folks, that is the situation that needs to be addressed. Do I think USPA is going to help, hell no. We were able to jump into the stadium long before USPA claimed to help us, all they did is add more red tape to the process. we have had our dealings with the FAA and USPA over what we can and can't do on demo jumps, believe me, the FAA is much easier to work with (they don't have anyone trying to get on the jump). As soon as we can find a way out of the insurance mess, I am with you Ron, I will keep my USPA dues in my pocket! What is the solution? It is a little simpler than all of you make it out to be. We all need an airplane to do these jumps. The drop zones cannot be letting their planes be used on jumps that aren't to the BSR's. Who is at fault here? Someone may say I know someone who has a plane and will fly us, well we also need to keep the aviation community informed (this can easily be done through AOPA, they have had several very good articles abotu jump pilots and their skills/requirements over the years). If you see this happening at your home DZ and don't say anything, well, don't repl to this post anymore because you are part of the problem. We as jumpers enjoy something very special in this country that few industries can claim, we get to govern ourselves! We need to do a better job of doing it! Don't go on that demo if you aren't qualified or current enough for the task at hand. It is just another skydive, but the ramifications of errors on the skydive are what makes it different. P.S. I just got this picture although the jump was 9 months ago. Yes, tandem into an NFL game (our second one).

During the summer, nothing but what I wore to the DZ. As it gets cooler, I throw on a pair of long pants (a pair that costs less than $20, they usaully last a season). Even cooler, long sleeve shirt or jacket.

There will always be a fight over things of this nature. I can't remember the last time I jumped an RSL. Does that make them a bad thing, no. In fact, I would never let a student or more that matter someone who is not yet comfortable with cut-aways and reserve deployments jump without one. Same of course goes with other items, such as AADs, helmets, shoes, etc. The sport is high speed and doesn't lend well to people who have difficulty in panic situations, so why not use the safety features. Yet, the biggest thing you have to remember is not to rely on these systems. You have control of your destiny (contrary to what some of us say). Don't cut-away and expect the RSL to open your reserve. I will tell you a story that goes along these lines. I guy was making a jump with a group. On exit, his cut-away handle got pull on accident. Knowing that if he pulled his main it would just leave him, he just fell flat and stable until the Cypres fired and saved his life. He had an RSL also, so if he had pulled his main at anytime his reserve would have deployed. If he had pulled his silver handle his reserve would have deployed. Both actions would have saved his life, but instead he did nothing and pinned all his faith on a computer (that hopefully he turned on and was functioning properly) in his rig. My question is, should this guy even skydive again? My advice to you is make sure you have all the extra safety features in your rig when new to the sport. Better still, understand how they work and why you shouldn't have to count on them. This will make you a much better skydiver!

No, but I will tell you that I have caught free-bags after a reserve opening. It is kinda of stupid, but the mind works in funny ways. After you realize your okay, you start thinking about how much money that just cost you, you notice things like the freebag floating down with money signs on it. Now, personally I have never had a desire to try and catch the main, but I don't know, I guess the freebag never looks big enough to cause any damage. I will tell you a funny story though. After a huge funnel on the 200-ways back in '92, I pulled while still in a track (scared to death after being entangled with so many people). When I came too(opening shock caused me to see stars like in the cartoons) I had broken 4 lines on opening and had to chop the main. After an uneventful reserve opening, I turned around to catch the free-bag. I had to get in line behind three other canopies

Watch your camera person, or even ask them, they'll tell you it is still there! Maybe not as pronounced granted, but still there. blue skies, art

I have been rated on all the rigs, have over a hundred jumps on all but the ellipse. I have owned a strong, a vector II and now have a sigma (with the sigma canopy) In order of preference from worst to best, strong, jumpshack, vectorII/ellipse(a virtual copy) and the sigma stands out heads and tails above the pack. The strong rig is big and bulky, too much stuff is hanging out in freefall, and I have lost faith in their canopies after watching several blow-up (including a reserve, no ijurys luckily) with little support from Ted over finding a solution. On top of which, if you own a strong, you are constantly paying for updates on the system. The jumpshack rig is the most comfortable for the jumpmaster, least comfortable for the student, Canopies still don't reach the potential of the other systems. But one of the easiest rigs to fly in freefal. Oh, very easy to misroute ripcords and closing loops, needs very good inspection before jumping. The sigma is just the next generation of a very good rig that the vector II was. Bill Booth did an excellent job of trying to eliminate many of the incidents that were inherent in early tandem accidents. He did this by thinking outside the box and developing new systems. PD did an excellent job developing a new canopy, which flys as well as the very good Icarus, but with much better opening caracteristics. Okay, that is my two cents worth and granted most of that is personal experience and opinon mixed in. I have found that many tandem masters adapt to one rig or another and defend it to the end. I have made well over 2200 tandem skydives with zero reserve rides and taken the Jaguar mascot in to the stadium here on two occasions with my sigma(picture attached). So, I am somewhat biased, but you asked for an opinon. blue skies, art

I have to agree with Ron on this one guys. I have jumped four different tandem systems, with well over a hundred on each, all have a trap-door effect on them. Granted the vector's (both sigma and vector II) is more pronounced, I believe this is due to the drogue collapsing before lifting the bag off your back (this however eases the occurences of "line dump" that seem to haunt strong(why it has bungee cords on the bag) and jumpshack(have had more hard openings on) systems). So if you ever pull an unconsciuos tandem master, you might go for a bit of a ride, but the end result will be well worth it. blue skies, art

With over 2200 tandems, I will tell you this...always, always, check your gear, be careful when you climb out of the plane and if you have a videographer, hopefully he will care enough to do something besides sit there and watch. The problem with the incident that Dave was talking about was a little more complicated than the short two paragraphs. It has been a few years, but If I remember it happened in Canada. The big problem that I remember was that the drogue release wasn't pulled which create the horseshoe that the tandem master dumped the reserve into. No matter what the problem, I have always believed that I would make sure the drogue was out and all the handles but the reserve were pulled and gone, before I pulled the reserve handle. Getting back to videographers, the one in this situation risked his life trying to save the tandem pair. I have heard too many accounts of him flying over grabbing as much canopy as he could and deploying trying to at least slow the thing down, to believe it was not true. So getting back to the thread, I would hope that if I were ever unconsicous, my videographer would be willing to do the same. With all that said, drogue release if the drogue is out, reserve if nothing is out. blue skies, art

Were these really the good old days?*** Ron, they were. When one of the best skydivers in the world asks why can't we break-oof a hundred-way at 4500' and everyone doesn't have a problem with it. We actually broke-off about four due to the massive industrial haze we entered at 7500'. Hell, once down in the hills, the Southern Cross lost a motor at 1000', the pilot said he was making one pass over the DZ, does anyone want out. Well, he was able to lighten the load by half (everyone on their mains). These days, maybe four or five would have gotten out. Those were the days when we weren't scared of our equipement and had cofidence in our fellow skydivers. blue skies, art

I am with Ron, I have pulled low (below 1000') a few times, all of them pretty stupid. I will tell you about one, because it should be a lesson to everyone. We had a four-way team back in the 80's. We were jumping from cessnas at 9000'. We usaully broke off at 2500', tracking and pulling around 1800' (a very common prctice at the time). Once we were really turning points, were problably aound fifteen when one member of the team started to track off, the other three of us were looking at him. He came back to his slot (out-facing in a bi-pole). About that time all four of us realize the ground (less than a thousand feet) was very close, but being good skydivers we tracked and pulled. The longest canopy ride was less than 30 seconds. The camera man video the whole thing, abet with his pilot chute in his hand, he could see the satelliete dish growing very quickly in the background. Watching the video with the dish growing at an alarming rate is very discerning. Lesson learned though, when one person decides to break-off, it is problably time! The others I will keep to myself, or if you ever bring me a beer at the end of a good day of jumping, I am sure to be persuaded to tell you even closer calls. blue skies, art

*** if you need to ask this, don't bother asking to jump with a tandem, please! blue skies, art

Dave, being the S&TA here, I will tell you what I have been lead to believe. There are BSR's that are guidelines that should be followed. These were developed over the years by our elected officers (that piece of paper you are suppose to fillout and send in every couple years, it is on the back of your Parachutist). If the guidelines aren't followed, I (representing the USPA) should inform the jumper and advise him/her on the proper procedures. As far as instructors go, not following the BSRs should result in myself filing some paperwork with the USPA and effectively removing their ratings and/or license. This includes having a student jumping gear that does not meet the BSRs (a drop zone reponsibilty maybe, but the instructor needs be aware of it). Over the years I have seen the USPA pull ratings and licenses, even a couple incidents of pulling membership. This prevents the person from being insured through the membership and effectly grounded from USPA member drop zones. I hope this answers your question. Oh yeah, just a note, my ratings have been threaten on numerous occasions. blue skies, art

I am going to jump in here quickly and then leave. Being in the sport for over two decades, I have seen many changes, both good and bad. Good, turbine planes are very abundant, we don't drive all day to a DZ out in the middle of no where to jump a DC3. Bad, the smaller DZs in the country are having a tough time competing and are slowly going out of business. What has the USPA done in either case, not much. The industry itself has changed more to the entry of several good "minds" who have made the gear safer and much more reliable. Did the USPA have a hand in this, a little, but the industry has been the driving factor not the USPA. I am an S&TA, I represent the USPA, but other than two or three people at headquarters, getting someone to do something for you is like pulling teeth. I have had more problems dealing with the USPA and doing demo jumps than the FAA has ever given us. We were cleared by our FSDO to do demos (after 9/11) long before USPA got involved. The when they did, they just muddied the waters of the whole process. Politics ends up being the driving factor in if you are helped or a roadblock put up in front of you. That being said, as far as your proposal for inspecting drop zones...who is going to pay for this. The dues now don't really represent the amount of service we are getting. With the number of drop zones in this country (many only open on the weekend) you would need five or six people doing it full time to do the quarterly inspections. And what do you do about drop zones that are closed in the winter, do they get a passing grade in the winter months (no jumping, can't be doing anything unsafe). Lastly, who is setting the safety margins or the scale as to what a "safe" drop zone is. If the "inspector" feels tandem masters should wear helmets, everyone should have a AAD (requirements at some DZs) is he biased towards one that doesn't. All of these things and questions abound when you want to add another level of beuacracy to an organization that has to many levels already. In closing I want to add something for thought, Roger Nelson was a very safe skydiver, who ran a very safe operation, state of the art and many DZs look to the operation as a model. Yet if you read the papers in Chicago, it is very unsafe there, so where would this whole inspection thing benefit that DZ? blue skies, art

This has always been a sticky situation for me. I am more than willing to do a "coaching" dive with most anyone at no extra cost to the jumper. But, if I do take the time out, I do expect that the person when they are experienced to do the same for someone else. We do a lot of tandems and AFF jumps for cost of the jump tickets. These are for friends of family (both real and our skydiving family). A new jump pilot wanting to do AFF, my wife's sister, a good friend's husband or wife, etc. We all do the same for new students just off student status. Teach them to pack, better techniques for gear checks, spotting etc. Taking the time without taking the money improves everything about the sport. It is not about the money, it is about enjoying time in the air with your friends. So you experienced skydivers take heart, find a newbie next time you are at the drop zone and offer to jump with them, we will all be better skydivers for it. As for all the newbies out there, don't undervalue the time the experience jumpers spend with you. Listen carefully, learn, don't argue with them and say thank you with a beer at the end of the day. blue skies, art

Since I don't read theses things but maybe once or twice a week, I am not sure where to jump in, but here goes.... Tandems are great for the first jump! Now that being said there are plenty of exceptions going both ways. First, I will grant you there are exceptional people out there who can go through the first jump course and finish the program (S/L or AFF) in the minimum number of jumps whoever their JM's are. But for 99% of the people who come out to make a first jump, a full day of class and then a AFF jump (I will keep my comments to AFF and not S/L) is more than one can handle. From a DZO's (small drop zone, not all of us jump at the likes of Chicago) point of view, tying up an instructor or two all day for one or two people who may never jump again this makes no sense. Having that instructor freed up to do 4 or more tandems is a much better way of running a business. So if I own a drop zone, everyone does a Tandem first to see if they enjoy skydiving at all. After that, the new student and instructors can evaluate what is the next course of action (another tandem or the AFF course). I have also found that doing one tandem makes much better students. The success rate of AFF students who did at least one tandem is infinitely higher than those who did none. Now that being said which is better, well you have both left out the most deciding factor in all of this and that is the instructor. We have all seen and know of instructors that don't belong in the sport, every drop zone has them. So, if someone is doing these "extra" tandems with a so-so instructor, did they learn as much as doing AFF right away with a very good instructor? I think that a lot of drop zones have this problem also thrown into the mix of questions that you are asking. Some like Roger have gone one way and been successful, other have gone in other directions and been very successful also. I also tell potential students when asked whether S/L or AFF is better (I know a different discussion, but this is an example) that it is what works for you. I always say "each has it's own merits and weaknesses, you need to evaluate how you learn best and pick the course that you think you would feel most comfortable in." One more thing before I go, Ron is absolutely right in saying that we have way too many people in the sport who have no business jumping out of airplanes. We deal with them all the time. Scared to death of a hop-n-pop, scared to pull below 3500', wouldn't ever jump without an altimeter, etc. Some of the programs are at fault, but I think in our greed to make money by expanding the sport to people who should never do more than a tandem skydive every once in a while is the main culprit. Okay, I got my two cents in, thanks, blue skies! blue skies, art

You made me think and I actually had to go measure mine, as I was not sure what I had since I got my new rig. I believe that 26" is the standard on Jumpshack rigs, although I may be wrong. I have had them from 22" on up to 30" to effect the opening of the canopy (it seems to make a difference, the larger the faster). In fact I had one made that was 36", approaching base jumping sizes for a stunt we were doing. So what is the right size, hell I don't know, but 26" seems to work, then maybe move up or down from there. blue skies, art

You need to check out some other DZs. There are many economic and safety related issues with heavier people, so shop around, but be careful. By the way, I have taken a passenger who tip the scales at 318, but he was a very good friend of mine. My limit is 260 and in decent physical condition. blue skies, art

How many people out there are jumping canopies above the recommended weight. I know I on any weekend I can go to the DZ and find plenty of them. Then, you have people exceeding the speed of the TSO all the time, what about premature openings. Yes, I think people exceed the guidelines all the time, but when was the last time you got off the Interstate and slowed down to the ramp speed of 45 mph? Same difference.....?

One, if you need to break-off at 6000' to have enough seperation for an opening at 2200'. You are either doing something bigger than a 60-way or the people you are jumping with are pretty poor trackers. Two, if you don't believe that it causes a faster opening go out and try it. If you have a canopy that doesn't snivel, don't be wearing a camera on your head as it may hurt. As far as why it opens faster in a track, you are only thinking in one plane, up and down. There are other factors in relative speed i.e. the speed of your track. The two are actually coming from different directions during a good flat track, but the combination gives you a higher totall airspeed. This will not register on the little computer as it is only measuring vertical airspeed. blue skies, art

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back when my team was doing 4-way is was very common to dump in a track to make your canopy open in a shorter period of time. That is an admission that your track was not very good. ------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How in the hell do you reach that conclusion? I see it as he opened in track to open his canopy faster. And in fact he said just that...Where do you get that his track was bad? He never said that he opened in a track to continue to get away from everyone. You just went to apples when he said oranges. Ron FWIW...The guy has 7,000 jumps...I bet he tracks just fine Thank you for expalining this to someone who doesn't know any better. blue skies, art

That is an admission that your track was not very good. Kallend, where did this insult come from, geez, I don't even know you, but it is obvious that you know very little about skydiving. Years ago when the first Florida hundred-way was built in Deland, we broke off at between 4500 and 5500'. To most people in the new to this sport (started in the last five years) this seems absolutely idiotic. Trust me it sounded bad to us at the time too, but if everyone is disciplined, tracks properly and pulls at the assigened altitude, everyone is safe. We made 15 jumps in three days without any incidents. Sounds crazy, hell no, faster opening canopies, hell, I have the fastest opening canopy that I have ever owned. The biggest difference is more people had more confidence in their and the people around them's abilitly to do what was asked of them. If you are so scared of your canopy that you need to open above 4000', you are jumping the wrong canopy, not too complicated. blue skies, art

Somewhere I think we are losing the point of this thread, why was a 4-way team chatised for a planned opening of 2500'. Last time I read the SIM this is still 500' above the minimum for D-licensed skydivers. When was the altitude changed? The other thing is when did a seven-hundred foot opening become "slow". Back when my team was doing 4-way is was very common to dump in a track to make your canopy open in a shorter period of time. In my years in the sport I am seeing more and more people so scared of little things and their ability to deal with them, this is becoming even more frightening. The equipement technology has gotten to the point that Darwin isn't allowed to weed out the ones who should be bowling instead! If you are going to open above 3500', I don't care, but tell the load organizer, and don't get on to people who enjoy freefall and are confident in there abilities to deal with mals at 2000'. In closing, if your scared just say your scared, don't try and convince other people that they are unsafe because they have more confidence in their ability than you. blue skies, art

Well, that is problably going to do us in as far as demos go. The added $300 of insurance means we either need to jump for free or not at all. blue skies, art

I guess if I wore one this might make some sense! blue skies, art

1. Tandem Instructors, do you wear a helmet on tandem jumps? Only in the winter when the air is so cold it hurts my ears (one maybe two weekends here in Florida) 2. Why or why not? I don't normally jump with a helmet, why change. I only wear a helmet on freefly jumps and then only recently. I become uncomfortable and less aware with a helmet on, end of story. 3. If yes, what type of helmet? In the winter, I wear a frap hat. 4. Do you have your passenger wear a helmet? Only for two reasons, they are wearing glasses and frap hats seem to help the over the glasses goggles stay on better. Wintertime, when the comfort of warm ears is needed. I must say here though that many times in the winter I will have a student wear one and I don't. 5. Why or why not? One reason foremost, people look so much different in pictures with a helmet on. There is very little added protection for the passenger, so make the picture look good. 6. If yes, what type? Frap hat or some sort of soft head cover. 7. Have you changed your helmet policy for tandems? No, and would hate to be forced to. 8. If yes, how? N/A 9. What rigs are you rated on? Vector/Sigma, Strong and Jumpshack 10. How many tandem jumps do you have? 2200 I haven't heard of this policy wanting to be implemented. Who has started this and for what reason? Has there been a tandem accident/fatality do to an instructor not wearing a helmet? I have been doing tandems for twelve years now with none of the issues I see listed in some of these threads. I have zero, I repeat ZERO tandem malfunctions in the over 220 hundred tandems I have done. I take great pride in this fact, but also realize that I pack 99% of the tandem rigs I jump. I also am very meticulious about how they are maintained. I have also done two tandems on demos into NFL football games. I have taken as many as fifty handicapped passengers (definitely special concerns, but still no helmet). With this kind of experience, I am not sure that I want to be forced to change something because someone has deemed it so. So as far as I am concerned, a helmet policy does nothing to enhance the safety of a tandem jump. blue skies, art