RhondaLea

But it does. Not all consequences are foreseeable. Failure analysis may prevent repeats, but there will always be more than one way to fuck up the same exact jump. Which is why it is not only knuckleheads who die untimely deaths. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Sometimes, Tree, shit just happens. Scott isn't the first person who has been in this situation, and he won't be the last. And if you look at The List, there is no more correlation between "doing it right" and evading disaster than there is "time in sport" or "number of jumps" or anything else you might want to point to as a factor. In fact, there are more than a couple people walking around hale, hearty and whole whose imminent deaths were predicted by many, and many others who are somehow dead when it was impossible that they should ever die. Miles may or may not be doing the right thing, but this isn't the incident that proves it one way or another. Heal fast and well, Scott. rl

"In a class by itself." Just like you.

My personal favorite: On the earlier discussion, I don't think you should be too concerned about letting logic rule in placing people on the list. If you do, you'll be compelled to put me on it when I die, and five jumps or not, I'm not a BASE jumper. I'm glad you decided for putting Swyers on the list, though. It defies strict logic, but it feels right. rl

My eyes saw this thread, and not only did I think I was in the wrong forum, but also that I somehow went back in time about 20 years. Jim O'Brien was *the* preeminent Philadelphia weatherman of his day. Funny, personable guy. Died in a skydiving accident at the Herd in the early '80s. His death got as much local attention as our most recent dead president got national attention. Not a particularly appropriate anecdote for the BASE Zone, I know, but I wanted to share my startlement. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

It was the assumption that there can be a "last word" on this topic (or any topic), which bothered me. You're open minded, so I'm surprised you disagree. I'm not so open-minded as you might imagine, but in this case, I wonder what part of what I wrote led you to the conclusion that I disagree? As for me, everything else I have to say on the subject belongs in email, which is where I intend to keep it, barring some bizarre turn of the thread. rl

If that's a logical fallacy, it's a new one on me. What else did you want to discuss that has not yet been covered, o most venerable smartass troublemaker?

Um... This thread has already been done. Years ago. If you can find Alan Roulston, you can even get a "No Beer" number. On the other hand, you've been around long enough that you likely have one. Me, I always bought my beer, for even the most ridiculous "firsts." rl NCB#16 or maybe it's 17, I can't remember. Not enough beer.

I've spent all day trying to write a post for this thread, and every attempt has turned into babble. I suspect that this one will too, because the issue is so emotionally charged for me. What I'd really like to say to you right now, Jason, would just create a minor ruckus in some circles, so I'll save it for email. I can allude to it, however, by saying that the reason I have liked you from the beginning of our acquaintance, in spite of the impediment , is that you are one of those rare individuals who lives an examined life. You also have the intelligence and integrity to look beyond your self-interest. To know you is a blessing. Now comes the babble, so y'all might just want to stop reading right about here, even if I feel compelled to keep writing something I'll be sorry for later. Someone commented up above that he knows two people on The List. (I started this as a "reply to" and changed my mind, because I don't want you to blame him for getting me going.) It got me to thinking, so I loaded The List and started counting. In the top half, I have four friends and two acquaintances. In the bottom half, I have four--soon to be five when Nick adds Josh--and the painful awareness of one missing. (Aaron Britton should be on the list, Nick. Ask Tree.) So anyway... I read something once, so long ago I don't even remember the tradition from which it originates: "I will speak your name." Parting words in a time when it was never certain that travelling companions would meet again. A promise that, no matter what, one would not be forgotten. I believe that the human spirit is eternal, but in the here and now, the only immortality that any of us is given lies in the memories of those who love us. In the last ten years, at least thirty people for whom I cared have died. In a way, it makes perfect sense--we're talking about people who throw themselves out of airplanes and off fixed objects, after all. Other times, though, it feels like my own personal tsunami. I'm sure many of you can relate. For nearly three years after his death, I carried in my purse the email Thor Alex sent me right after he was released from a NYC jail. When I remembered him and was sad, then I could hold his letter in my hands and read his words. It was a tangible reminder of his existence, and it was a comfort to me. I once shared it with another of his friends and watched it bring tears to his eyes. It was a comfort to him too. For a long time after we met, Dr. Death and I stayed in touch, right up until I opted out and stopped answering my email, my phone...I wasn't home to anyone. (If you're really reading this and you want to know how dire can be the consequences of falling out of touch, I am an object lesson.) Then Lee died, and Nik was the only person in the world I really wanted to talk to. To this day, I carry the last email he wrote to me. Just knowing it is there to read is a comfort to me. The problem is that to think of them, remember them, speak of them all the time is a disservice to those still living. So... I don't know if The List is educational except to the extent it tells us that BASE can and will kill you, sometimes even if you do everything right. Consider that all the incident reports in Parachutist have had little effect on the overall skydiving fatality rate--even if the proximate cause of death has changed substantially over the years. But if The List persuades even one person that it can happen to him, that he may not be the exception, and that he should prepare for the very real possibility of dying, then it is education enough. But given that The List just puts a human face on what should be patently obvious, what is more important to me than anything is that those who have gone before are remembered, that the only true immortality they can have in this life is accorded to them. I do not want them to be forgotten, any of them. For example, I never knew Theresa Tran, but I remember when she died. I remember how much her friends loved her and their online outpouring of grief. I want her to be remembered. I want her to live forever in the hearts and minds of all those who come after, and it is this purpose that The List serves perfectly... ...that, and that it comforts me. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Thanks. I appreciate the kind response, but in truth, the poster who evidences the most insight here--gently but eloquently, and with true affection for all concerned--is Karen. I wish we all had heeded her message. rl

Jason, Two things: A. Except for the general aspersions he cast on your character--with which I do not agree--I thought his assessment to be eloquently and accurately stated. B. The quote up above is perfectly consonant with your statement: ...and then you blew it... I don't call that "returning fire." I call it a cheap shot. When I consider the cheap shots I've fired off in my lifetime, they were all the result of my refusal to back down when I was wrong. Maybe we're different. Then again, maybe not.

Jason, Although I understand your goal, I think you might consider that burying the facts is abhorrent to ethical people. I know you well enough to know you are ethical, so I can't figure out where you came up with this harebrained idea. Further, I think making an issue of what you allege to be Nick's obsession with death calls for an apology from you to him. But that's just my opinion, and you can do whatever you want. Just remember, though, that the webpage you propose to impose strictures on belongs to Nick, and he, like you, can do whatever he wants, no matter what public pressure you bring to bear. If it comes to a vote, then mine is that the webpage should remain as it is or as Nick may choose--without undue interference--to make it in the future. Although it now serves as an educational tool, it remains a memorial to those who have gone before. It would be a terrible thing for any of them to be forgotten. rl

it would just turn into a gunfight. bozo No. Merely a pissing contest. rl P.S. to Vinny: Tag! You're it! Although I was late, I have reason, as well as many excuses. Now it's your turn, and I do not hear ringing. Loser. ;)

I won't tell you how many of my friends have committed suicide, Ray. Numbers are useless. The real number is "too many," but my most painful recent experience was losing my very best friend in the world last June. Please just take my word that I have knowledge of the subject at hand. I have another, very close friend who is alive today only because of a lot of therapy and a shitload of luck. I wrote to him about this, because I was so frustrated by the reaction of some of the posters here. I asked him this: What does one say to those who believe that suicide is a) a "fuck you" gesture or b) the act of a nut or c) "psychopathic manipulation." Here, with some editing, is his reply: Suicide is never a "fuck you" gesture. It is a fuck it all gesture. Suicide is a reaction to intolerable psychic pain that one's coping skills can't relieve. There is always an underlying ... problem--generally severe depression, a deep feeling of hopelessness.... Substance abuse is a pain indicator. A "nut" is someone in serious psychic distress. They need help not scorn. Suicidal ideation begins the process. A half-hearted attempt is someone asking for help. This is hardly manipulation. Pop psychology and "the common wisdom" say a lot of things. Most of those things are wrong. Every single time someone chooses suicide as a solution, everyone says: "I'd have helped him, he should've asked me." Or they claim they didn't know. But the reason most people never ask for help or let on that something is wrong is a direct result of their expectation that they will receive a response similar to those seen here in these threads. I've come very close to killing myself on more than one occasion. This is the first time I've ever made such a statement publicly, and I do it only to make this point: the times I have suffered in silence were because I'm not willing to set myself up for the judgments that fly fast and furious when those kinds of thoughts are voiced. I can't speak for Nick. I have no idea what he was thinking or feeling because I don't live inside his head. And the rest of you don't live inside his head either, so it takes a lot of nerve to disparage him the way you do. He is not crazy, he is not manipulative, he is not any of the negative things that have been said here, and it infuriates me that people who do not even know him at all are making generic judgments based on what they think they know but do not know at all. I've actually posted about this, Ray. You weren't paying attention, and that's not my responsibility. Yes, I have a few BASE jumps. No, I am not a BASE jumper. But there are still people in this community I care about deeply, although as time goes on, it seems to me that more and more of them are dead. None of my comments have anything to do with your human worth or lack thereof. I will say, however, that you're about nine years too late with the label, and I've been flamed by people a whole lot more clever than you. Spend a year or ten on usenet and get back to me. rl

I'm just here to let you know that your "outlook of life" flies in the face of all known facts about the subject of discussion. On a broader level, I would suggest that those who wish to characterize the acts of others educate themselves so that their pronouncements are the correct ones. So far, all such characterizations that I have seen are totally wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, or at least that's what we're told, but not all opinions are created equal. I haven't seen that any of the most adamantly opinionated among you have the first clue about the topic upon which you choose to expound. One thing about a crisis like this is that it separates the stand-up guys from...the ones who are not. rl P.S. Ray, there is a wealth of information on the net and in the library about what is known as "black and white thinking" or "splitting." It would be an educational google.

Nick, What he said, many times over. rl

I accept that as factual, because I did know a few of those too. Not many, but a few, which is why... ...I conclude that I have insufficient information to understand the animosity of the NPS for BASE jumpers. As a matter of habitat protection policy, the regulations have the potential to make sense. (There's an equivocal statement if ever there was one.) As a practical matter, the apparent obsession with the capture of otherwise innocuous BASE jumpers seems a little nuts, particularly when such obsession and legalistic adherence to regulations has been the proximate cause of one human death and the indirect cause of another. If there is no damage to the habitat, what's the point of chasing guys with parachutes? But that's the question. Is there, in fact, no damage? I don't know the answer to that question. In my younger years, I worked as a naturalist and rehabilitator. I never cared what people did in the park--and they did a lot--unless their activities interfered with the critters or caused harm to the habitat. On the other hand, during that time, I learned to generally dislike--with passionate intensity--my own species, because many of my fellows felt compelled to leave their spoor in everlasting ways. To me, there is almost nothing worse than having to kill an animal because some thoughtless person caused it irreparable damage. Given that, it would seem to me that there are likely other instances similar to the one under discussion in this thread and that those cases have led the rangers to develop a philosophical hard-on for BASE jumpers. Maybe that angle deserves a closer look. rl

In my experience, this is true. I worked in the state park system, not federal, but my experience with rangers is that they are generally law enforcement-oriented only, with little regard for that which they are sworn to protect. Most of the rangers I knew were rejects from the state police academy. That being said, whether or not rangers use "wildlife protection" as an excuse for their personal vendettas or otherwise, they still have legitimate and compelling reason to preclude anyone from trespassing into protected areas. As for the alleged superiority of humankind, I suggest continuing education. I'd start with Temple Grandin and Animals in Translation. Humans are not the end all and be all of the universe. rl P.S. No, I'm not a treehugger. I support hunting and fishing. I eat meat. On the other hand, I have--with my own hands--ended the lives of countless animals who could no longer survive in the wild as the result of human thoughtlessness.

Cut the chicken's head off. The first "BASE jump" I ever saw occurred when I was about 4 years old. My father decapitated a chicken (with a hatchet) and the body of the chicken went running over an embankment, flapping the entire time. My father caught up with it on the other side of the brook. rl

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Kenny spent some time in DeLand a few years ago. He was always friendly and he had a smile for everyone. A rarity among skydivers, I never heard him complain; instead he cajoled with humor, and if it failed to work, he accepted "no" gracefully. He was a really, truly nice guy, and his passing is a terrible loss to everyone. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Jumping into the protected area is the equivalent of breaking and entering. Raptors are not adequately equipped to protect themselves against such incursions, and because we have co-opted their habitat, we have an ethical obligation to do it for them. As far as I'm concerned, this is not about BASE. It's about a total disrespect for the creatures with which we share this planet. rl

QuoteI think we need to define safe... Quote Good idea. Because whether they mean to or not, it looks like all the people who are voting "yes" are answering a different question than the one being asked, i.e., "is skydiving safer than BASE?" The problem is that there are no statistics for BASE (yet), and a gut feeling is not reality. Eighty-four fatalities worldwide over 23 years isn't a lot of deaths on the face of it, until you figure out how many jumps were made during that period or how many jumpers were jumping in any given year. I'm not entirely certain that the fatality rate for BASE is going to be horrifically higher than that for skydiving once you adjust for student jumps. (USPA uses all jumps in calculating the fatality rate of one in sixty-five thousand or so, including tandems and students. That tends to skew the results.) But no matter how you look at it, to define any parachute jump as "safe" gives a totally new meaning to the word.

Why don't you email him instead of posting all that? Because everyone is always interested in what Faber is up to, and what combination of words and letters he will use to tell us about it. :) rl

There's another one coming this season: http://rcdb.com/recordholders.htm?statistic=1