DARK

invade the countries obviously and destroy them

in your opinion they should be regulations but obviously in someones opinion they should only be recommendations because that is what they are. why dosnt the uspa hold a vote of its members (an online one if that passes this month) to find out exactly the opinion of its members and go from there besides the obvious one of caring if people get hurt i really dont see how this affects you personally in anyway. you choose were you jump and who you jump with. when you get on the plane and when you leave the aircraft. if you dont like how one place does it then move your business elsewhere the american skydiving industry has one set of benchmarks, the british another so on so forth, who is right? i think your speaking in absolutes way too much these rules and regulations and recomendations are fluid things that constantly change these particular two just happen to get the most attention cause alot of people want to fly camera and wingsuits. is it wrong to jump threw clouds anywhere because its illegal in america? is a parachute association in europe or anywhere else unsafe and out to kill people because they think 100 jumps is all thats necessary to fly camera or is america unsafe because somewhere else in the world says you need 500 jumps? this debate is being sparked becasue smaller cameras have come online and some people are off the opinion that they are safer to jump as a result. the uspa and its rules and regulations should be a reflection of its members attitudes which is why it seems to me that they need to look at this again in great detail (not thewingsuits just the camera stuff)

+1 i found mine last week

not that i think it bothered you that much but that wasnt really aimed at you personally just to be clear

i have no business posting about the wingsuit incident so this is jsut about this part you (and many others who post here im sure) have done exactly what your trying to stop other people from doing and that adds serious weight to your advice especially if its obvious that what happened was a serious life changing event. but i think its how you guys try and stop others that is the problem everyone is an adult here and telling them that something is against the rules and thats that just dosnt cut it telling them that people have been hurt or killed doing what they are ding dosnt cut it i think they need graphic honest no bullshit personal accounts with no condescending personal attacks and even if you do that yoru still not gonna reach everyone iv worked and lived on a dropzone since i had 6 jumps not everyone i met and worked with knew my experience at the time and would talk to me like i was an experienced jumper and i heard all the horror stories(and success stories) and saw some failry crazy stuff that people without licences probably shouldnt see and it has made me a more cautious jumper (perhaps overly cautious) but i have seen it do the exact opposite to people(the minority). people who have seen and heard the exact same stuff that i have have gone the other way trying to be bad ass know it alls and its that minority that you need to figure something out to get threw to but imo your never gonna succede i think they are the type of people who will only learn threw personal experience

i didnt say anything about taking them off radio, in the mentioned scenario i dont think its a long stretch that they could be on radio for however long they need while being able to freefall on their own having said that im not sure id be happy with them flying with someone who wasnt a coach before they got their licence no matter how good they are so im not sure there is an advantage at all to passing aff after two jumps, besides money of course but if your that good in the tunnel chances are you know most of the local skydivers and probably arent paying all that much for aff anyway

no and trying to compare the two is strawmaning imo someone somewhere in the world should probably let this guy jump, he understands the risks he is willing to take them he thinks he has a certain amount of skill he is an adult let him have at it would i let it happen were i worked/lived/owned. of course not because there is a massively increased risk of him dieing unnecessarily and if i dont know them then its all purely selfish reasons for me not wanting them to die (potential lawsuit / bad press for sport / potentially dz ruining) no1 has seen him fly because he has never jumped before so again its unrelated to your final examples in your own story you mention that someone may have passed aff in two jumps cause they were a tunnel rat. IF someone is extremely proficient in the tunnel, and can demonstrate stability in all orientations and at pull time and altitude awareness in two jumps then should the recomendations apply adn should they be forced to do the rest of the levels? im not so sure. i cant say either way but im definitely not in the camp that would definitely force them to do all 7 levels. i think the recomendations are good in general and personally ill be sticking to them but i also think over regulation is bad and you guys need to take the stick out of your ass when you see someone with 180/190 jumps with a camera asking for advice

you would lose that bet

anything remotely bible or religon related would be an excellent start but we beleive in free speech unlike the guys who write the books like that so i guess we cant be hypocrites and they can have their say

if you want to live in the us then the above advice is great if you dont then there are plenty plenty more places to consider new zealand spain france asia in general personally new zealand is top of my list right now but there are others right up there too

so how much did you pay for your; AFF A License B Licence gear rental and first 200 jumps? How long did it take you and were you employable shortly afterwards as a commercial skydiver at a DZ where you could progress on to make a good living? expensive is in the eye of the beholder. If you are a half empty type with no desire to excell, then yes it will be an expensive experience, but if you have desire, aptitude, common sense and a hint of professionalism, it is expensive not to, as a skydiver. so there are places willing to hire these graduates at in or around 200 jumps as full time skydivers? or are you just talking about getting a job on a dz? im in my third year of packing and want to get my riggers ticket in the next year or so and head to new zealand( i hear riggers are in demand) but id also like to jump video so i might hit you with a pm rhys and just get your general advice on a european ehading to new zealand for work in the industry

care to summarise the facts that are discussed in the video as i dont have an hour to watch them all and the first mins of the first one are painfull

i fail to see how that was an insult, people are so sensitive these days

And if you're doing it early, with or without approval, for pete's sake don't trumpet it all over DZ.com to show how cool or mad-skillzed you are. That is a strike against the judgment level as a rule. Just keep doing your thing, learn, and don't fuck up. Wendy P. yep i kinda agree im not sure what side icome down on as far as dz.com goes. i think the people in the know here have an obligation to post helpfull and relevant information to any question asked (if they are going to reply at all) which suggest that if someone with 150 jumps and is wearing a camera either way asks for advice on his gear check procedure or whatever now that he has a camera they should give the relevant advice BUT they also have to give safe advice which suggests they should go with what they feel is safe and if that is tell them they should not be thinking about this until 200 jumps then they have an obligation to say this ASWELL its a tough one for sure

If a teen is in a car wreck and an open cell phone is found on the floor of the car, there is no way to absolutely rule in or out, that the cell phone played a role. Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either. Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no? your example of the low turn issue is not like for like downsizing, learning to swoop, turning low and impacting are very obviously connected putting on the same helmet you have for the last however many jumps with a camera on it and then misrouting your chest strap or not cocking your pilot chute or getting too close to someone under canopy are not things that are very obviously connected and are things that people without cameras do all the time. the appearance of an increase in incidents could just be as a result of the fact that you have started to compile a list. your list certainly shows the reasons for not jumping with a camera before 200 jumps (low timers do stupid things all the time) it dosnt necessarily show any increase in these incidents as a result of these cameras though and to suggest it does is wrong imo again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone

patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels and your goverment(the scoundrels) has done a great job instilling this over the top patriotism in you (you plural not you personally)

ok

good debate guys keep it up i pretty much agree with everyone since my last post so not much to say really

well that was my point assuming he is a member of the uspa and im guessing he is then the cover DOES showcase the uspa

im not a rigger only a packer the only people iv seen never flake are ones with thousands of jumps who are flying small high performance canopies that dont have much material anyway if you are trying to save time then ask your head packer to show you how to flake fast. you can do 90% of the flaking right after you count the cells and shake it out and right before you put the nose between your legs ask someone in the know on your dz to show you how to do that you will knock minutes off your packjob by being good at bagging and being fast at line stows

your reply is the exact thing i have a problem with in this debate. completely patronising and unreasonable. he has done everything within his power to ensure he is doing things safely you have many thousands of jumps and thats great you know what you are talking about clearly but so to does the s+ta and the dzo(they may even have more jumps and experience then you) so why are you automatically correct and they are automatically wrong when you know nothing about this guy besides his jump numbers and they know him personally and probably have been on the dz for every one of his jumps? why should he take your opinion over theirs? why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

is the brit a member of the uspa?

its not because a couple of americans attended its because a couple of uspa membeers attended im a member im not american and i think it should be a world wide magazine because the sport needs one

you seem to be under the impression that i dont like the sim, thats not what i meant, its great, i just meant most fun jumpers iv met never look at a sim after a certain point in their careers unless they are studying for a rating but they are constantly listening to the advice of their peers. im not saying this is right its just the way it appears to be

Look, the recommendation is simply that - a recommendation. If a person thinks it should not be applied in that person's particular case, that person can go to the DZO and/or the S&TA and/or the head camera guy, and try to get approval. Maybe they know you well enough to give an immediate answer, or, maybe they will ask you to show them why the recommendation should not be applied in this particular case. But, whatever the course, the recommendation is a good place to start. Variance from it is something that will need to be earned. It is not to simply be expected. It is not about the size of the camera or the simplicity of the mount. It is about being ready to get into something that most people have not been ready for so soon. It is not a personal insult to fail to get a variance. These people have to consider your safety and the safety of those around you when such a request is presented. They are (usually) doing the best they can for all involved. Some people are making it sound like the most horrible thing that there is a recommendation that says to wait. But if they are good enough, and can prove it, there already are ways to approach the thing. So what's the problem? thats pretty true i guess the problem is IF someone has done the above and goes elsewhere and all of a sudden they are either not allowed to jump or are ridiculed for being dangerous. but ye your right, i personally dont see it as a major issue but it seems to be one that comes up around here over and over again