erdnarob

That beeper is a TIMEOUT and the flat line alarm is at 1500 and factory set, same for the double frequency alarm at 2500 that cannot be chosen either, only the first alarm can (between 3000 and 12000 by increments of 500 feet). My Sabre 2-170 opened on an average of 340 feet (average on 10 jumps). After downloading the data from my Vigil I and interpreting the altitude-time graph, I could evaluate that I pulled at 1377 feet. Take 340 less for deployment and that gives you 1037 feet. As to confirm that figure, my Protrack gaves me a opening altitude of a 1000 feet (Protrack and Vigil parameters are not exactely the same for the opening altitude). My main was out and so my reserve. Vigil manufacturer told me after seeing my data that if I had pulled 1/8 of a second before there wouldn't be any firing. I was just at the limit. I still use that TIMEOUT and I like it because it is louder than the Protrack. Too bad the Timeout is no more in production. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

The Sidewinder uses a pilot chute made by UPT VECTOR at least the three of them I have packed (reserve) this winter. A pilot chute unable to be launched when the reserve closing loop is cut is apparently a potential problem common to all small containers. Having the cutter at the bottom of the reserve makes the remaining of the cut closing loop longer then more prone to get caught when zigzaging thru the flap grommets. Remember few years ago when 3 Russians pulled low and find out at the landing that their Mirage pilot chute hasn't launched after their AAD had fired. This incident prompted Mirage to change the location of the cutter from below the pilot chute to above the pilot chute. The Vector III I have tested by having the loop cut at the bottom of the reserve (using a flat hook knife and a pull up cord) is a #348 M series for a 170 Sabre 2. (pictures of the test available on request) For the mesh, I think you are still required as a rigger to perform an acid test on a reserve pilot chute mesh just to make sure. You never know when the mesh could become acidic. I have seen mesh passing the test and 90 days after failing it. The chemical coating is not acidic itself but with time and moisture, it can become acidic. That's why Bill Booth got rid of the reserve pilot chute mesh. And after an actual cut away I can tell that the "balute" meshless pilot chute works beautifully. All the rigs are good otherwise they wouldn't stay on the market. But some are better tested than other. After all UPT VECTOR has built almost 50 thousands rigs so far. Nobody got close of that figure. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Being logical to my precedent posts, I would give you a go for a 170 zero porosity canopy: you have a lot of choice: Sabre-2, Safire 2, Pilot, Firebolt... Again and I want all the readers to take note of this: Get a good briefing from an instructor who knows you. A lot a space ahead of you at landing into the wind and keep on going straight forward making sure your toggles are symetrical which needs first some concentration. Your load factor will be 1.06 which is super conservative. The difference between a 190 and a 170? The 170 is faster (but at your wing loading not too fast) then it will provide you with a more dynamic flare. Get briefed for the flare. Have someone taking a short video of your landing seen from the side. Any good pocket digital camera has the "movie" option now. The 170 zero porosity will give you more forward speed then more penetration into the wind which is always good to have when the winds picked up. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

If you have hip rings where your leg traps are attached, it's a piece of cake for the manufacturer to change them. You mention Sunrise then you should have a WINGS isn't it? Wings are generally coming withn hip rings. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Since I am not a masochist, I come back to buy the system which is the the most functional, confortable and durable for me. I am also a rigger since 1977. I have packed many rigs and I find the VECTOR being the most rigger friendly. As a rigger I can see how the rig is made concerning the reserve. I have also performed my own tests like having the loop cut at the very bottom of the reserve container of the Vector and I can tell you, the pilot chute jumped as high as 5 feet. On the other hand, there is a rig (I don't want to mention the name) I have seen unable to lauch its pilot chute when the reserve loop is cut, is it scary enough? On a VECTOR III you have a reserve pilot chute without mesh, a reserve pilot chute of 40 lbs strength when compressed, now the Skyhook and the riser covers with magnets. Nobody else has that, isn't it? Note: Mesh on a reserve pilot chute has always been a problem since the mesh is coated with a special treatment against fire. That coating can make the mesh becoming suddenly acidic. Never heard about acid test on mesh? The Vector is the only known rig equiped with a pilot chute without any mesh for the reserve pilot chute. No more acid test is required. Have you seen a pilot chute with acidic mesh? it's almost like toilet paper. Does your rigger make an acid test on your reserve pilot chute ? If he does it, you should find some blue spots on your reserve pilot chute, do you? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Go for the VECTOR III. This is the most avanced rig right now. I have had so far 6 Relative workshop rigs, Wonderhog, Sprint, Vector I, Vector II, Vector III, another Vector III this time with magnetic riser covers, Skyhook and hip rings. This rig is the state of the art, confortable and all hardware is in stainless steel as standard. It is equiped with the French "new" adaptors for the leg straps (made now in USA) and combined with the double #8 webbing is not slippery at all. The adjustment don't get lose. The Mirage would be my second choice. About the riser covers for the Vector III, packers like it a lot. It's easier for them. For a Sabre 2-170, you need a Vector III M series #348. I had a sabre 2-170 and now I have in the same container size (#348) with a Katana 170 which fits perfectely. About the SKYHOOK, remember there are 3 functions: 1) It releases first the left riser in case of the break down of the right one (the Skyhook RSL is attached to the right riser) 2) It pulls the pin 3) It pulls the briddle cord making the reserve deployment twice faster (timed on numerous videos) even in case of fast spinning malfunction. Who can top that! Note: In case of a total malfunction, no problem to pull the reserve ripcord, it will pull the reserve pin allowing the pilot chute to launch and the SKYHOOK will release. More than a million of cut away have been made on it. See UPT VECTOR web site and download the SKYHOOK video. No wonder most of the manufacturers right now are trying to develop their own "skyhook". And if you cut away, there is a good chance to recover your main parachute and free bag attached together. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

NWflyer, you are a very wise lady, you are right. We cannot always pull at a specific altitude like someone mentioned it (3500 feet). When on a big way you pull when you are told to do it (at the dirt dive) and provided nobody is above you until a certain limit. Here is a story to illustrate the opening altitude and a Vigil firing: I was on a big way camp at Perris Valley doing 40 way formations when I was put in my not so confortable zone. They changed me from a zipper attached on the base to an outside loop with 4 girls (I am a big guy). I did it docking last on the 40 way completed at my very limit of low speed (thanks to my jumpsuit with some material under the arms) but when at 5500 feet I had to track away for 20 seconds, I lost my "wings" because of the track position and started sinking with respect to the girls of my loop tracking in the same quadrant. I checked above me 3 times and the girls were still there. Finally taking care too much of the girls (maybe I am a gentleman) I sort of forgot my altitude and when I heard my beeper with a continuous alarm I pulled. My main parachute was opening when my Vigil fired my reserve; I was in an upright position. That was a low pull. Since I have the Vigil interface and software I downloaded my Vigil data and found out that my Vigil had fired at 1099 feet instead of 1100 feet (not too bad after all). I had a beautiful biplane which I chose to land without releasing the brakes of my reserve. My canopy was a Sabre 2-170 and the reserve was a PD 160. I asked questions to Vigil manufacturer and I had all the explanations I had requested. I am a rigger and technically oriented as you can see. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi NWflyer, congtatulations you have the best AAD ie. a Vigil. I own a Vigil II but I had a Vigil I before which is now in a student rig on mode STUDENT. Thanks for the 3 modes available at will which can be chosen from the device menu. 1) if in an upright position in PRO mode and falling at 78 MPH or more (when the main opens for instance) your Vigil will fire at 1100 feet, the Cypres will fire at 1010 feet. Why: When you fall flat on your belly, there is a differential pressure between your chest and your back equivalent to 260 feet due to the partial vacuum or burble in your back. That means the atmospheric pressure in your back is weaker than the atmospheric pressure on your chest. Therefore provided you fall at 78 MPH or more, when you are actually at 840 feet (on your belly) with the Vigil in PRO mode (750 feet for the Cypres in EXPERT mode) the Vigil will fire as mentioned in the manual. But at that very moment, the pressure in your back is weaker and that means that the equivalent altitude is 260 feet more (more altitude = less atmospheric pressure) and then the Vigil in your back reads 840 + 260 feet = 1100 feet. In other words, the Vigil in PRO mode (provided you fall at 78 MPH or more) is set to fire when it reads in your back a pressure or an altitude equivalent to 1100 feet. When on your belly and the Vigil "feels" 1100 feet in your back, you are actually at 840 feet. When in upright position there is no more differential pressure between chest and back therefore the Vigil will fire when "feeling" 1100 feet and in this very case you are actually at 1100 feet. For the Cypres... same stuff. The Cypres will fire when it "feels" 1010 feet. If you are on your belly, your actual altitude will be 750 feet or 1010 -260= 750 feet. In an upright position with a Cypres (provided you falls at 78 MPH or more) it will fire at 1010 feet since there is no differential pressure between chest and back. Note: 260 feet is the differential pressure between chest and back when falling on your belly at terminal speed provided your main is still in its container otherwise the aerodynamics changes. 2) You are right, the Vigil get cocked (ready for firing) at 150 feet therefore bailing out unconscious at 1300 feet, your Vigil will open your reserve. The Cypres WILL NOT since it gets cocked provided you reach an altitude of 1500 feet first. 3) for the Cypres there is a parameter for the pressure (altitude) and one for the speed (rate of change of pressure versus time) and the 5 other parameters are...SECRET. Those words are exactely what Cliff Schmucker president of Airtec USA or SSK wrote few years ago in SKYDIVING MAGAZINE. At the time I answered that as a pilot I had to know all parameters of my airplane in order to make a better decision in case of emergency. As a skydiver with some experience I need to know all the parameters of my AAD for a better decision in an emergency situation and that's why I chose a Vigil since the Vigil manufacturer has a more transparent approach about its AAD. BYW, I am not a Vigil sale representative and I am not paid by Vigil either. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Buying an altimeter is for sure the best gift for a beginner. I have an ALTIMASTER II for more than 30 years and it's still working (very few maintenance and a couple of recalibration). I have seen the Altitrack and find it fantastic. However in order to optimize the money spent I would go for a traditional altimeter for the wrist and an audible altimeter for the helmet. Here is some examples: 1) FT-50 wrist altimeter 152.00$ + a beeper PRO-Dytter (or SOLO) 171.00$ total is 323.00$ 2) Altitrack wrist altimeter/computer 275.00$ + a beeper Solo 160.00 total is 435.00$ 3) Barigo wrist altimeter 154.00$ + a beeper/computer Skytronic fx 225.00$ total is 379.00$ 4) Altimaster III wrist altimeter 159.00$ + a beeper/computer Protrack 291.00$ total is 450.00$ I personally believe that an audible altimeter for the helmet coupled with a wrist altimeter is the best safety option. If you are generous, have one of the two devices being a computer as well. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I like very much your attitude about getting knowledgeable about the equipment you are jumping including AAD. But, are you really aware of the firing parameters of your AAD? Here are few questions for you and everybody else (I am sincere here and not trying to put anybody down and this is for the benefit of all): 1) if you are in an upright position because your main parachute is in the process of deployment and you are low (long swivel...), at what altitude and speed a Cypres and a Vigil will fire if you go thru the firing altitude ? 2) You have an airplane emergency at say 1300 feet (that happens generally soon after take off), in a hurry you hit the airplane door frame and get unconscious, how the AADs, Cypres, Vigil or Argus will handle that kind of situation? 3) Do you know the 7 parameters of the Cypres? For those who always open at 3500 feet, congratulations but in some circumstances are you sure you will always be able to do it? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

If you worry too much about the cost of maintenance of a Cypres, buy a Vigil which does not require any scheduled maintenance. The Vigil shows you what it is checking, CUT OK, BATT OK, CRTL OK (cutter, batteries and control or electronics). If one item fails, the Vigil switches off. If the batteries are weak but still good, it tells you "Low Batt". If the 3 tests have been successfully, the chosen mode stays on display: PRO, STUDENT OR TANDEM. Vigil seems to be more advanced about its electronics (more recent technologiy). If you feel you want it to be checked, you can send it back to the manufacturer at your convenience, not after a specific time of 4 years or whatever. Vigil II cost right now 1199$ and its batteries duration is more than 7 years or 2000 jumps. Vigil II batteries cost about 75$. The VIgil is not a plastic box but is made in sturdy molded aluminum and its cables are reinforced with Kevlar. Have a look at it and take it in your hand and you will be convinced. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I was about to comment when I saw Bill Booth's post. Bill said it all, magnetic riser covers is the solution. That's what I have on my VECTOR III. And as Bill mentioned earlier, after opening they close back. One more thing, packers will love you with such a rig since it's way easier for them. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

RSL is normally good when you do a cut away from a deployed canopy. First, if you know your rig and YOU SHOULD, and provided the length of the closing loop is OK, sequence for closing the main container flaps is OK, checking your hackey and reserve handle just before the exit is OK, such an occurrence (impossibility to get the main out) shouldn't happen. It reminds me a whuffo question:>. Well time for a prayer... A well maintained rig and knowledge about it and how to use it should avoid that kind of situation. I don't want to be condescending but prevention is quite better than the cure. Who can be quiet and cool enough to undo the shackle of an RSL in free fall, and fight with the Velcro and pull on the RSL in order to deploy the reserve? I guess very few. I remind you that you go down at 174 feet a second and even if doing so is feasible theoretically I doubt very much that actually can be done. On the other hand, having an AAD is a solution to that cascade of problems (ie. main container locked and reserve floating rip cord). Another solution (not available right now) is the Bill Booth's reserve rip cord made of 1000 lbs Spectra line including in the middle of the line a shock cord put inside the line and stitched at both ends. That shock cord or bungee cord keeps the ripcord line under tension and if the handle comes off of its pocket instead of starting floating it stays against the pocket because of the tension. I have a VECTOR III and I asked to get that feature for my reserve rip cord but UPT VECTOR told me it's not already FAA approved. You bet I will get it as soon as it will be available. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

As an answer to your question nothing better than publishing here an excerpt of my long article about THE STATE OF THE SPORT in 2007. You can find the complete article at the GENERAL SKYDIVING DISCUSSIONS item on this forum: Here it is: Well I read that again after one year I wrote it and I am still convinced at 100 %. As I said, an AAD is good provided you don't neglect keeping up with good skydiving skills and rig knowledge and maintenance. Personnaly, since I have my VIGIL AAD, I do know it works according its designs since it fired twice when it was supposed to do it. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Dacron has more elasticity than SPECTRA and is as mentioned more bulky. Dacron therefore will make your opening softer. Amazingly Spectra after a while shortens a bit especially the steering lines which are more subject to friction from the slider (heat caused by friction get the Spectra lines shrinking). If you don't have hard opening problems, go for the Spectra which is a more modern material and what I believe is less likely to burn your cells in case of a packing done a bit too fast. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I had a Sabre 2-170 for about 400 jumps loaded at 1.5 and it was opening on an average of 340 feet (average on 10 jumps and calculated from altitude-time graphs downloaded from the Vigil using the Vigil interface and software) that was confirmed by the graphs downloaded from the PROTRACK using the software and interface for the PROTRACK this time. BTW I did the same with my Katana 170 and found that it was opening on an average of 600 feet which is softer. Anyway, using your altimeter before pulling and after inflation could likely lead to erroneous results. Why? Because the pressure at your wrist influencing the altimeter is very variable. If you don't have access to a PROTRACK with interface + software, I suggest you to use an audible altimeter set for instance at 5000 feet. Have an eye on your altimeter around 6000 feet and have your hand ready on the hackey at that time and when you hear the beeper at 5000 feet pull immediately. Try to check the altitude of your altimeter as soon as the parachute is open and before releasing the brakes. Since you have slowed down your altimeter reading should be more accurate. Now, you should probably deduct say 200 feet to allow for the reflex time before pulling and after opening when looking at your altimeter. It will be even better if you repeat this experience several times by taking note of the results and do an average. 1600 feet to open is not at all acceptable but I have some doubt about your evaluation method. The method explained above should yield more realistic results. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have a domed slider on my Katana 170 but I was surprised when I saw 2 bands of 2 inches wide of thick mesh on each side of my slider. I was told at PD that only the big Katana (150-170) have that feature. My Katana opens on average of 600 feet (based on 10 jumps recorded by the Vigil II) which is very very soft. On the other hand with a SABRE in case of hard opening: 1) take (as recommanded by PD) 4 cell noses each side and roll them thight inward (toward the middle) and crease them like you would do with a newspaper. Leave the center cell nose in the middle. Just put the left and the right precedent rolls in the middle gently (never inside the center cell nose) 2) when packing make sure the slider is well against its stoppers (Slider grommets against the stoppers at the base of the stabilizers, there is 4 of them) 3) after you have "S" folded the reduced width canopy and put it in the deployment bag, just milk the the last 4 inches of lines upward to make sure the slider is still against the stoppers. PD warns that if the slider moves by a inch down, you would probably remember that opening for a long time. 4) make sure you have the proper size for rubber bands, they have to be tight to avoid any line dump. Make the stow the proper length too. Not too short not too long. 5) After your pilot chute launch, resume your box position and look at the horizon during deployment. Try that and tell us if there is any change for your opening. I am not inventing anything here, most of the items come from the PD sheet about he factors affecting the openings. (Hi Gary, what about Don K. and Rantoul) Andre Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Dawn, you just speak as an oracle. You just mention what I find the most important. Durability is one point but being functional is even more imortant. I have jumped my last VECTOR III about 400 times. It was equiped with a spandex pouch which doesn't need to be replaced for say another 200 jumps. What people are complaining about? 500-600 jumps before replacing the Spandex pouch is about what is needed to replace the lines and the kill line. I was right when I say this is maybe a issue of the kind "Fashion versus Function". Guys, (and girls) FUNCTION FIRST, it has to work. Fashion after isn'it? But for the people who believe there is a problem with a cordura or a spandex pouch, have they thought about a combination of the kind of pouch and the way the pilot chute is packed. That's why Brian Germain wrote a post on how to pack a pilot chute. I invite everybody to watch this video an stick with the method shown on it. ERDNAROB Rigger since 1977. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I was in Florida 5 weeks ago and on one jump (a 10 way) a friend of mine with a WINGS container had a very strange incident. When he threw away his pilot chute, the hackey sort of slipped away from his hand. Incredibely the bridle came between his legs and he got his parachute deployment that way. The result was a broken line and a long longitudinal tear on the cell corresponding to that line. He managed anyway to land after seeing that his canopy (Nitron 134) was behaving almost normally. But the deployment bag had hit his knee and right now he is still limping and does physiotherapy (ligament problem). His jumpsuit and leg skin have been cut by probably the line which broke. I just wonder if there is a relation between the discussed subject here and that incident. I agree with HAJNALKA (DAWN), I prefer spandex pouch since the whole body of the pilot chute is kept tight not only the mouth of the pouch when made of cordura. It seems to me that this subject is one of the kind: Fashion versus Function. What do you guys think? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi Brian, I didn't know that method of packing a pilot chute was from you. I use it after I saw it in a VECTOR main and reserve packing video (2003) provided by the Relative Workshop. It's maybe not a coincidence since on your video you display a VECTOR II. I personally have a ZP pilot chute with my VECTOR III and so far have no problem with openings but a friend of mine, also with a VECTOR III use a F111 made pilot chute which is wider in diameter, he too is happy with openings. One thing you didn't discuss is the possibility of a bridle and hackey (or handle) entanglement. I always have thought that folding the bridle into the pilot chute (inside the mesh) was meant to prevent such a problem. I have jumped at Malone once in a while since early eighties. Dick Swanson told me you were from there. Cheers. Andre. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Carol, your choice is good provided it has been done by balancing the pros and the cons to downsize. Later on if you find out that what I have said is not that terrible you will change and there is nothing wrong with that. If you have the chance to follow a canopy pilot course with professionals, do it. They take you at any level. The only bug I see it that your reserve is quite bigger than your main (228 versus 190). Anybody will say, good for her. Well, there is a case where your big reserve can be a problem. This is if you find yourself with 2 parachutes out and having a biplane. I personally believe that a reserve with lines shorter than the main ones will have less tendency to lead your main in this case and therefore reducing the possibility of a downplane. If a biplane happens don't undo the reserve brakes and if the biplane is quiet, reserve behind the main, keep both parachutes and be gentle on the toggles. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I used a 9 feet (or so) electrical grey PVC one inch diameter tube (cost 8.00$) plus I put inside that PVC tube another electrical one in metal of a 3/4 inch diameter to make the assembly more rigid. For the crest of the wind blade use an adaptor with a 3 feet long flexible fiberglass rod you can find in a hobby shop. Total cost is less about 20$. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Well, so far you don't have many jumps then why you don't use gear rental using 250 then 220 square foot canopies. If you go in a big drop zone like Skydive DeLand or Skydive Chicago for instance, I am pretty sure they have that. It is expensive to rent but you are still on student status anyway then you have to refer to an instructor. Considering your weight and after say, 25-35 jumps or more depending of your proficiency, maybe then you should consider to buy your own rig. What I have in mind is a Vector II or III with a Sabre 210 or better a Sabre-2-210 (Safire 209 is equivalent). Why I am in favor of 9 cells canopies: because they have a more powerful flare. For the reserve, have a PD 193. Is that sound OK? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

From my point of view you did a perfect change. I changed recently from a SABRE 2-170 to a KATANA 170 and I land better now even with almost no wind condition (loading over 1.5). The Katana 170 and probably other Katana too, has an angle of depression or glide angle of 18 degrees and I supposed this is why it is ground hungry as they say. But on the other hand my Katana 170 has few better features than the SABRE 2 -170. More stopping power at landing and in almost no wind condition I don't run as much as with the SABRE 2-170, it packs slightly smaller than the SABRE 2-170 due to the HMA lines I guess and opens very smoothly (about 600 feet calculated on an average of 10 jumps (using the VIGIL downloaded data), it opens more often on heading provided after launching the pilot chute you resume your box position and look at the horizon. The Sabre 2-170 never gave me an on heading opening but within a second was quiet. The Sabre 2 -170 was opening in an average of 340 feet which is harder but OK. I guess you have like me a special slider (only for Katana 150 and 170) equiped with 2 bands of 2 inches wide thick mesh on the sides. I still have to ask John LeBlanc from PD about that feature. Yes the Katana 170 turns fast and personally I keep that kind of manoeuver when being above 500-1000 feet. I have also the impression that my Katana 170 will not bring me back from far spot as well as the Sabre 2-170 did even with some brake applied. But I was happy to see that I could do some sort of accuracy with the Katana 170. It happened in Florida 5 weeks ago when we got a bad spot. At a 1000 feet still over the forest I realized I might not make it back to the airport therefore I choose to land in clear area in the forest. I made my landing very short to have plenty of space ahead of me but I had to pass at few feet from a big tree to do so. It worked well and my Katana did a nice job. Have a very good time with your Katana but avoid to do erratic move near the ground. Straight forward and symetry with the toggles work the best. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

No cause for panic, this is a forum and using certain expressions (bullshit, joke or lack of credibility..) is not the place for that. The richness is in the variety and is the ultimate objective of a forum like this one, an exchange. For the lady who is selling parachute: Yes, the Spectre is slightly tapered. The Sabre is not, the Sabre 2 is bit more tapered than the Spectre. Slight input are necessary only to maintain your canopy on a straight line at landing. That was my meaning, keep your canopy straight forward in order to avoid to turn and sink at high speed. I disagree with you when you say you have to keep from falling off the windline. It is more important to stay on straight line than trying to be absolutely on the windline at any cost. If you take a canopy pilot course which is offered at any level, after a while the instructors will ask you to land at 30 degrees off wind, then 45 degrees. For a beginner and anybody, staying on a straight line at landing garantees that your canopy will not increase its vertical speed by turning. I believe that the skydiving community should put more effort at training the beginners to canopy piloting. This is still new but I am looking forward to see canopy piloting as a part of the student training. Flat turn, slightly off wind approach, flare techniques... there is a lot of stuff to cover. For Bill the moderator. Don't worry too much about me, I am considered as a very cautious careful and conservative the way I am piloting my canopy. And we should avoid generalizing with one or 2 cases in mind. The problem right now is the canopy piloting (which causes alot of injuries) and this iisue has to be taken seriously. Education is still the best. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.