erdnarob

Hackhish said it all. How easy to make sure an AAD will not fire at the ground that programing it to arm itself only at 1500 feet. Billvon, in case of emergency at 1400 feet (we know that a lot of aircraft problems occur at or right after the take off), on the rush to get out of the airplane you hit your head and become unconscious, with a Cypres YOUR ARE DEAD MEAT. With a Vigil which gets armed at 150 feet above the ground you have way more chance to survive. Vigil I simply had a different approach about where to put its priority. Now what do you prefer, having a firing when the airplane is on the ground or having no AAD protection when bailing out at 1400 or lower????? Anyway, in both cases those 2 situations do not happen very often but with a Cypres you have no protection below 1500 feet and with the Vigil your are due for a new cutter and and a repack. And for Billvon, with Vigil II in case of a very sudden important rate of pressure (higher than a speed equivalent of 253 MPH) it will not fire. Vigil did its homework. If you talk with system engineers, they will tell you that no system is perfect. Vigil and Cypres have just a different philosophy. Getting a firing in the airplane on the ground is not fun but the Vigil I did its job as designed. You will never be protected from all situations. Now, how many of you got an AAD firing? I got two and that is why I can talk especially after having downloaded each time the data. There is an important difference between what you whish the reality is and what the reality is actually. I am talking about real things which really happened to me. That's why I can say my AAD did its job because it actually did. Do you know if your AAD works? We just wish it will but most of you don't actually know it will. I forgot one point. If you do pond swooping and get wet, with a Vigil II you just hang it up and let the filter dry. With a Cypres getting wet you have to get the filter changed. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi maLUco and GLITCH, thanks for your good words. I consider it's my duty as a rigger (since 1977) to spread the information. As I mentioned it, my choice for the Vigil is obvious but I tried to be rational as much as possible. It's my nature to tell the people when I find out a good product. Past Monday I got the iPHONE G3 and it is a pure wonder. I am a MAC afficionado. I have to show it to my friends. Right now, I am leaving home to go and perform pull testing on Cypres and Vigil Dyneema loop at a local lab. I will write the results on this forum. Blue skies. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

The comparison between Cypres and Vigil has been made a couple of times in this forum but since you and the author of the thread ask for it here is the reason why the choice, from may point of view is obvious; 1) Cypres box in made of plastic ABS like with tiny and fragile cables between that box and cutter and display window while Vigil box is made of sturdy molded aluminum which has a flat and curved shape which makes it very ergonomic into a reserve container (I am a rigger). The Vigil cable are strong and Kevlar reinforced and can sustained a tension up to 110 lbs. 2) The Cypres has scheduled compulsory costly maintenances at 4 years and 8 years while the Vigil has a no scheduled maintenance and its maintenance can be done at your discretion. Cypres is no more good after 12 years while Vigil life expectancy is evaluated at 20 years. 3) Cypres mode is factory set while Vigil has the 3 modes (PRO, STUDENT and TANDEM) that you can set up yourself (the chosen mode stays on the display all the time the device is at ON then no chance of confusion if you check it when stwitching it on at the beginning of the day). This features is particularly interesting for equipment managment in a DZ since you can remove a Vigil on PRO mode and install it in a tandem or a student rig after changing for the mode needed. As a jumper, if you have to sell it, it will be easier because of that feature. 4) The Cypres when switched on shows a series of numbers while the Vigil shows exactely what it is checking like : BATT OK, CTRL OK and CUT OK for batteries, control and cutter. The Vigil with the INFO dsiplay can gives you the data of your last jump. The Vigil provided you buy the interface and the sofware let you download the data of your last 16 minutes (15 or 16 jumps) including the graphs Speed versus Time and Altitude versus Time. This how I could evsluate that my Sabre-2-170 was opening on a vertical distance of 340 feet (average of 10 jumps) and that my Katana 170 was opening on a vertical distance of 600 feet (average od 10 jumps). The Cypres does not offer such data downloading capabilities for the customer, only for the manufacturer. 5) The Vigil II has now double batteries good for at least 7 years or more than 1500 jumps. The Cypres has its batteries changed at 4 years maintenance. Vigil II batteries cost 50 EUROs or 75 $. Cypre maintenance cost way more and you have to ship it to an Airtec service center increasing that way the cost. 6) Cypres II cost right now 1350$ while the Vigil II cost is still 1199$ 7) As Billvon said both devices are good but in my opinion Vigil II is a really more advanced design that the Cypres II. Vigil is more user's friendly, more good looking, more ergonomic, more interesting to play with and Vigil works well (I had 2 firings with my Vigil) and each time after donwloading the data, I could just conclude that the Vigil made its job as designed. One of the firing occured because of a low pull at Perris Valley and you can check it as #17 on the SAVES list on the Vigil (Advanced Arerospace Designs) web site. The second time was when the DC9 pilot at Rantoul on the ground started, by ignorance of the pressure sensitive devices aboard (AAD) pressurizing tha cabin. The Vigils fired because they don't have to reach 1500 feet like the Cypres to get armed and ready for firing just as designed. The Vigil felt the pressure increase in the cabin and translated that as a rapid descent below the firing altitude meeting that way the Vigil firing conditions ie: 78 MPH or more + at or below 840 feet. Those things above are facts and I let you now judge by yourself. If you have more questions I will be happy to answer since I start to know quite well the AADs. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Go in a skydiving store if you have access to one and have both devices in your hands and the answer will be obvious. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

There is the possibility of a discharged new battery. Those batteries last for years and the spare ones can stay on the shelf for years as well. Check the battery with a multimeter or have it checked at the Circuit store. Anyway, if this is not a battery problem you should send a email to Larsen & Brusgaard. They are very nice people. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

PD doesn't mention any tacking at all on its slinks. But PD asks to keep the ending going thru the loop inside the folded riser to protect it from abrasion from the slider grommet. After 20 jumps or so, the slink has a sufficient set to stay stable. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

It seems from my point of view that the 2 slots of the Vigil washer play the same role than 2 of the 3 holes of the Cypres washer and this role is to increase friction. I am pretty sure both Vigil and Cypres have made their tests before releasing those designs. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I know Jerry, when I said >, it was Bill. I understand you were at the same seminar than I. I was sitting just beside Shlomo. But you don't know the best: Just few hours after, one of my European contact told me that when the Cypres 2 came up on the market, the BPA banned the installation of the Cypres 2 into a Cypres 1 pocket. It was making sense since both Cypres 1 and Cypres 2 are different in shape and dimensions. Right away, Airtec issued a waiver authorizing that installation for UK only. Therefore at Reno the SSK representative was contradicting the Airtec decision in that matter. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Check it with Paragear from Skokie Illinois. They are selling strap material to secure cargo in airplanes. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have always warned my first jump male students to avoid wearing thight jeans since they don't allow the leg straps to be seated in the bend of the groin. I told them to wear slack pants to allow their genitals not being caught below the leg strap at all. If not, watch out at the opening! Fortunately girls don't have that kind of problem. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

By walking the lines I guess you mean the lines check. Here is what to do: 1) With the slider down by the risers lay your canopy say on its left side (right side is on the top) using the tabs or top of the cells (high points corresponding to the no bearing ribs) and put all the 7-9 cells together. You can do it with the canopy laying on its right side while the left side is on the top. The canopy lays on the floor showing its profile and airfoil shape seen fromsideway. 2) By applying the proper tension from the top of the canopy (attach first the container) all the lines are more or less together (group of: A lines, B lines, C lines and D lines respectively together). 3) From the right front riser grap the right front line set, they should be on the top of the left set of lines since the canopy has the right side on the top 4) From the right rear riser grap the right rear line set, they should be on the top too. Paid attention particularly to the right steering line which should be too on the top of the left one. You should be able to follow visually these set of lines including the right steering line thru the slider grommets, The right steering line should be well separated from the right rear line set and above the set all the way from riser to canopy. 5) Just for double check, figure out that you fly that canopy. Grab the 2 right side grommets of the slider and lift them up a bit to make appear how will be the slider after opening (you look to the right bending your head at 90 degrees). At that moment you can see the 2 right set of lines (front and rear) on the top of the left set of lines (front and rear). If it's the case, the canopy is ready to be packed. Have a person used to do the side pack to supervise you a couple of times. Note: Side packing a canopy is a good way to keep monitoring that the lines stay together in the center of the pack by constantly applying tension from the top of the canopy abeam of where the line sets are connected to the canopy when "S" folding it. Pro packing generally has the lines getting spread when doing the "sausage". Not easy to explain by text, I try my best. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

A close friend of mine got his 1996 Vector III retrofited with a Skyhook at Chuting Star and at the same time ordered a Nitro 150 from Mike and was very pleased by the service, prices and kindness to get an answer to all his questions. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

You are right. I never noticed it. Don't you think Cypres is pushing a bit too much by making mandatory the use of the pull cord made of their braid? In a way, that makes sense to use the same material but using a 550 sheating will even damage less the closing loop since it is made of nylon which is a softer material than spectra and provide a larger surface area decreasing the possibilityy of loop damage. A pull cord of 550 sheating is able to go thru the cutter hole. I am not surprised of Airtec doing so since at the 2007 Reno Symposium rigger's forum SSK (Airtec Cypres USA) representative said it was a question of safety to install a Cypres unit into a Cypres pocket. We know that most of the manufacturers install other AAD brands into a Cypres pocket since it is made of Spandex and that this practice has never resulted in any problem. At that forum as an answer to that statement, a well known harness/container manufacturer said that he was testing half a dozen of reserves for his rig and was assuming that other reserves that fit the container and do not interfer with the rig function were OK as well. There is a limit to impose blindly some way to operate when common sense show that it is not necessary. In rigging 3 major things have to be considered, Function, structure integrity and compatibility. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have seen the use of a pull cord using another piece of braid (same kind) fingertraped in the middle. Being lazy, using 2 pull cords side by side is easier for me and offers the advantage at the end since you can remove them one at a time saving a bit more the closing loop. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I think Tsalnuckt means a different material for the pull cord, not the closing loop itself. But while Cypres made it mandatory to use their loop braid, Vigil at least until recently mentioned that their cutter will cut virtually all kind of synthetic braid able to go thru the cutter hole. Vigil cutter has a circular blade, it cut the loop at both ends of the hole and melt the middle of the loop indide of the hole. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Very recently I have seen a guy (of 300-400 jumps) weighting 210 lbs doing a beautiful landing with a Storm 150. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

A Katana is way better than a Stilleto. It has almost the same planeform but is trimed differently. A Katana has 38 attachments points 5A, 5B, 5C and 4 D each side (not including the secondary steering lines) while I think the Stilleto has only 36 attachments points. The Katana has a pitch angle of 18 degrees which makes it a diver when turning (this is the highest pitch angle I have measured so far including the crossbraced canopies). The Stilleto is a 15 years old designs while the Katana has better flying features than the Stilleto. Soft opening, quite stable after opening, recovery of a turn without using opposing toggle... etc. I have a Katana 170 and fly it very conservatively so far and the flare is comparable to the Sabre 2-170 ie. very powerful. Suggestion of progression using Sabre 2 >> Katana >> Velocity or Icarus VX/FX/JVX is the best way. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Sorry for that, I thought it was obvious. I got recently the Vigil Dyneema braid similar to the Cypres closing loop cord. But I also got the new Vigil washer which has one hole and 2 slots and which is quite easier to thread the loop thru. Vigil washer is made of stainless steel: See the picture: spool of Vigil Dyneema braid, Vigil washer with loop, Vigil washer alone. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

No need for a special secret tool, I use a shortened thick ordinary needle with a large hole. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks Ficus for the figure. Billvon, we are on a rigging forum here and any information and precision made are more than welcome. According the latest info on the Argus web site, Ficus is right. Now, as I said, a particular thread can lead to another one more or less related to the original, no cause for panic here. Now listen to me well, in order to understand fully how the AADs are working you have to understand the following: the 260 ft altitude translating the difference of pressure between chest and (exactely) the inside of the reserve where the AAD is placed (provided the main is still in its container otherwise the aerodynamics changes) when falling on your belly is a figure that has been estimated by all AAD manufacturers in order to designs their devices. That's why when falling on your belly the AADs (Argus, Cypres and Vigil) having their pressure sensors in the electronic box in the reserve container and provided your speed is 35 m/s or higher will fire when they "feel" the altitude of 260 ft higher than your actual altitude (for instance, when falling on your belly and having a speed of 35 m/s or higher, the Vigil will fire when "feeling" the altitude of 1100 ft in your back. At that very moment you are actually at 840 ft (1100 ft - 260 ft = 840 ft all right!). My Vigil 1 dowloaded data confirmed that when I had a low pull at Perris while I was in an uprightt position and my main was beginning to inflate. That was confirmed later by Vigil people after studying my data. In that occasion it was determined that the very beginning of my deployment had been made at 1377 ft. However I agree with Billvon when he says that obviously, all those figures are subject to manufacturing tolerances (plus or minus x ft or y m/s). Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Spectra is made of polyethylene fiber and has a higher tensile strength than nylon fiber. That's why we generally use the same kind of material for a pull cord. Using a 550 lbs sheating as a pull cord on a Spectra loop is OK, it's just a bit thicker than 2 pull cords made of spectra/cypres line. Expect the stronger one (the Spectra) to "eat" the softer one. Also when using the Spectra/Cypres pull cord, at the end you can remove them one at a time wich is softer on the closing loop. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

If a beginner is going to buy your rig, generally he would prefer to have a complete rig including the AAD while a person with experience likes to keep it. A beginner quite often does not want to spend too much money either then your rig including the old Cypres at low price should make him/her happy. That would be the chance for you to get rid of the compulsory annoying maintenance schedule with a Cypres by buying a Vigil II with maintenance done at your convenience only. It's a more user's friendly AAD with sturdy construction. Have one in your hands and compare it with competitor products. It's day and night. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I can just agree that AAD functions are not well understood. Being of an inquisitive nature this is what I know about AADs. 1) Cypres, Vigil, Argus and Astra cut the reserve closing loop when firing conditions occur. Normally you should get a pilot chute launch and then a parachute deployment if the rig is well designed and well packed. The second A of AAD means ACTIVATION not deployment. When I turn the key in my car I activate the engine starter, that does not garanty that the car engine will start running. To do so, you still need a car in good order (batteries, starter, gas, firing system...) 2) Cypres needs to get at 1500 ft or more to arm itself and get ready for firing (firing set up at 750 ft in Expert mode) 3) Argus needs to get at 1400 ft or more to arm itself to get ready for firing (firing set up at 800 ft in Expert or Standard mode) 4) Vigil needs to get at 150 ft or more to arm itself to get ready for firing (firing set up at 840 ft in PRO mode) 5) Astra needs to get at 1700 ft or more to arm itself to get ready for firing (firing seet up at 1000 ft in EXPERT mode) Speed for firing (coupled with firing set up altitude) to get firing: 1) Cypres 35 m/s or 78 MPH 2) Vigil 35 m/s or 78 MPH 3) Argus 35 m/s or 78 MPH 4) Astra 40 m/s or 89 MPH If somebody is in a upright position (main starting to deploy or else) and get the firing conditions, since there is no differential pressure anymore between the chest and the back, the AADs (Cypres, Vigil and Argus) will fire 260 ft above the set up firing altitude (firing altitude is only good when falling on your belly). Since the Astra has the pressure sensor in the front (right main lift web) the 260 ft extra doesn't apply when in upright position. Note: The 260 ft is the altitude equivalent to the difference of pressure between chest and back (when falling on your belly) due to the partial vacuum in your back. Conclusion: If you are doing a normal jump and if you have to do a cut away below say, 1500 ft expect to get your AAD firing. If it does not fire then you were just at the limit. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I know that the following is not directly related to the thread but since we are talking about reserve closing loop , here is a simple way to use in order to get the closing loop less damaged when closing the reserve container. Instead of using one pull cord (made from the same material than the loop) I use two. I got this trick from the Vector III DVD explaining how to pack a main and a reserve in a Vector container. When you have to thread the 4 strings of the 2 pull cords thru the cutter hole if any, just wet the ends and twist them together and when you put this twist in the hole keep on twisting the right way (opposite way with respect to the pull cord twist). Beside that there no difference using two pull cords. The idea to use two pull cords is that the surface between the 2 pull cords and the closing loop is doubled threefore there is less pressure on the closing loop then less damage. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Sorry for the confusion, when I talked about flare, I meant a long tape of 30 feet or more made of 2" wide strips of bright color fabric tighted together. Simple, spectacular and safe. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.