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skydiverkeith

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The thing that sort of surprises me, is that a lot of people only teach 'monowing flying' to people owning monowing suits.
As again...the technique can also be applied to certain non-monowing (non-carpet-sized) designs. Its varies greatly for each suit in how it flies, but once people start flying their bodies more, and stop thinking in 'monowing vs tri-wing' you will see a lot of the techniques and flying skills can be applied to both.
JC
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The thing that sort of surprises me, is that a lot of people only teach 'monowing flying' to people owning monowing suits.



Maybe because you simply can't move your hips for weightshifting in a Triwing like in a Monowing?
Some flying styles work in both models, but definitely not all!

So yes - a lot of techniques can be applied to both, and we like to see more usage of "flying your body" in general.
But you were saying that it is just marketing...:)

I don't see the "versus" here: there are two different styles you can choose from, some people prefer one style, other people like the other one...

Herwig

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Here's my take on it;
The *skills* used to fly any of these suits are effectively the same but the application of those techniques/skills are different based on each suit.

I flew with a guy that has only flown Sfly suits, and he put on my Mach1. He was lost. Couldn't get down to us.
I flew his Sfly and found I couldn't put the suit into a power curve the same way, nor could I 'hang" on it like I can with my P2.
The way I used my body in the suit is the same, but the response of the suit is different.

The "flying mattresses" don't seem to have anywhere near the responsive input of the FYB suits, and the FYB suits are nowhere near as well suited for hangtime (based on my limited experience flying FYB and watching a number of others struggle to flock with both Tony and PF suits).

I put 15 jumps on the Profly at about the same time as I rec'd my P2 and was going back and forth between the two, and a couple jumps on an Access a few years ago. Similar size suits, same skills, but different application of those skills.
CG "feels" different in the FYB/monowing. Whether that's real or not might be a different story.

I believe too many people get caught up in the suits for how they're marketed vs the skills needed to fly each style of suit.

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Maybe because you simply can't move your hips for weightshifting in a Triwing like in a Monowing?



Not in all suits..especially the bigger ones are a whole different (slower) breed.
But for certain, in more suits than the ones that are known for it..

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But you were saying that it is just marketing...



No...only in some people I know, who talk about this technique, and stress you need to buy a certain suit first to fly like that.
Teach the technique seperate from wanting to make sale..it will help more people progress their flying.

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I don't see the "versus" here: there are two different styles you can choose from, some people prefer one style, other people like the other one...



Same here...and I hope people see Im not trying to discredit any design or brand (far from it) but am trying to market a flying style...
JC
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It comes from flying small groups with the FYB guys, I.e. Loic would brief a small group maybe 4 guys to fly first a line, then the right guy pops up 1-2m and moves to left and sink down again to take a slot there. Now Loic would be watching as he only wanted to see the specific input to the suit that he told us to use. In this example, only input is pushing shoulders down 1-2 cm; you would then almost be catapulted 5m's up the first time you did it, until you learned to put even less input to the suit. When I try the same maneuver in my different 3-wing suits, nothing happens, even if I fly the palm down. In that suit I really needed to cup just a little to do the same. This is at least one example that I have experienced. There are others as well, maybe other people can come up with those?

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This is at least one example that I have experienced.



So far...no difference between what I do to upfloat/change level in my non-monowing.

In the bigger suits (blade/ghost/etc) this effect only works when flown with all wing-surface tight and flat. Which is 99% of the time not how people fly those suits in a flock. So for many of the bigger suits, this technique will only be in effect when flying in the 80% to 100% range, and even there, lesser in effect because the wing surface extends outside of the 'tension line' between wrist and body and the two legs.

On a few select smaller wingsuits how-ever, this flying technique indeed applies 100% in the same way. Hopefully I can show a few of the same 'monowing techniques' during the wingsuit competition.

Sorry to hear several of the French teams pulling out, as it would have been interesting to see the differences and similarities...
JC
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I don't see the "versus" here: there are two different styles you can choose from, some people prefer one style, other people like the other one...



Same here...and I hope people see Im not trying to discredit any design or brand (far from it) but am trying to market a flying style...



It's clear. And appreciated.

I think it's the novice owners that dont necessarily create, but definitely fuel the brand wars. The (false) owner's pride, low experience and limited knowledge of alternatives tend to do that. Same story with anything - from computers and phones to cars.

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I didn't say it is impossible - I said it is very different! :)
If you fly close together and just move your hips the effect is different from that in Triwings.

Watch Robi flying very agile his Vampire or Loic his Expert: you can see both is possible.

But the flying technique to perform that is different...

And as Frits wrote: we are heavily influenced by the skill camps from Loic and Zun B|

Herwig

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I only asked because I interpreted the below sentence in your post as...there are things you can only do with one suit or the other.

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Some flying styles work in both models, but definitely not all!



But if that is not what you intended, I am cool with what you said below:)
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I didn't say it is impossible - I said it is very different! Smile

If you fly close together and just move your hips the effect is different from that in Triwings.

Watch Robi flying very agile his Vampire or Loic his Expert: you can see both is possible.

But the flying technique to perform that is different...

And as Frits wrote: we are heavily influenced by the skill camps from Loic and Zun Cool

Herwig

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watch the 'fall 2009' video on flylikebrick, and please explain what part of my anatomy is steering, if its not the minimal hip and shoulder movement (altering my CG/balance and lift) Im using, but some other hidden 5th limb steering technique.:P??

I fly, carve, upfloat with the excact few cm movements you describe (and transitioning to an Sfly it feels the same to me).

Its not a different technique, or different flying style. But rather a skill everyone should work on. More effective in one suit over another. But for sure not different or exclussive to monowing designs..

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there are things you can only do with one suit or the other.



Do 'easier' in one than another.....these flying techniques feel quite slower and less responsive in bigger suits, when not flown maxed out. And often these bad 'braked flight' techniques also bleed into peoples full flight mode. Resulting in nervous flapping of wings, poor steering techniques and wavy legs. But increased speeds matching those suits flight envelope will also result in more compareable steering and flying techniques applying.

But for the smaller suits Im flying, its for sure the excact input, skillls, manouvres and resulting output that some claim is exclusive to monowings.
Which just prevents people from seeing any suit could be flown with that technique.

But I gues our views and experiences may differ...asI said before..agreeing to disagree..

But do give the above video a good look as, for sure, hips and shoulders are doing all the precise manouvres.
JC
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I post a video of a tr-iwing suit, flown in monowing technique...the same thing some avid monowing flyers commented to me directly when this originaly went online.

Its not about any brand. This is about a certain flying technique only being attributed to one suit feature. While I believe thats limiting you a lot. As these teachings work on non monowings as well. On some very effective. On others less effective. But certainly not exclusive to one type (type...not brand) of suit, as some stated before.

But everyone is free to fly how and in what he or she chooses...somewhere in the middle we'll meet...as long as we're flying..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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If you are interested in seeing what we are talking about go to Gap and put on an expert. (you mai find yu ztart speeking wiz a foony accant tho ;)



How could any accent be funnier than dutch?:P
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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I am genuinely curious.

What are these mono-wing specific maneuvers and corresponding techniques that only work with a mono-wing?



You have no idea of the not so subtle difference. Its not that one suit can or can't do a manuever like the other. Its how you use your body to initiate and follow through to perform every motion in the suit. You can totally feel it. Like dancing some moves require the hips to start others the shoulders and arms.

But of course some people just bomb out of the sky to a somewhat predetermined deployment area and then land somewhere...... without ever learning how to really fly.:ph34r:And then post here about it over and over.

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I am genuinely curious.

What are these mono-wing specific maneuvers and corresponding techniques that only work with a mono-wing?



You have no idea of the not so subtle difference. Its not that one suit can or can't do a manuever like the other. Its how you use your body to initiate and follow through to perform every motion in the suit. You can totally feel it. Like dancing some moves require the hips to start others the shoulders and arms.

But of course some people just bomb out of the sky to a somewhat predetermined deployment area and then land somewhere...... without ever learning how to really fly.:ph34r:And then post here about it over and over.



Reminds me of a Loic anecdote.

It was at Deland in 2004. He was there and someone had organized a wingsuit gathering. Two planes full of them, Loic was organizing one of the planes and as he was talking to the group before before boarding someone told him he had no idea what he was doing.

He didn't like it, that was clearly visible, but he just brushed it off and went about his business.

If someone can tell Loic he does not know how to fly, who am I? :D

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I am genuinely curious.

What are these mono-wing specific maneuvers and corresponding techniques that only work with a mono-wing?



You have no idea of the not so subtle difference. Its not that one suit can or can't do a manuever like the other. Its how you use your body to initiate and follow through to perform every motion in the suit. You can totally feel it. Like dancing some moves require the hips to start others the shoulders and arms.

But of course some people just bomb out of the sky to a somewhat predetermined deployment area and then land somewhere...... without ever learning how to really fly.:ph34r:And then post here about it over and over.



Reminds me of a Loic anecdote.

It was at Deland in 2004. He was there and someone had organized a wingsuit gathering. Two planes full of them, Loic was organizing one of the planes and as he was talking to the group before before boarding someone told him he had no idea what he was doing.

He didn't like it, that was clearly visible, but he just brushed it off and went about his business.

If someone can tell Loic he does not know how to fly, who am I? :D



As irrelevant as it is to this topic...
>>Flying Skills
>>Organizing Skills
Two very different skillsets.

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Absolutely irrelevant!

And so is the whole conversation of Monowing vs Triwing which was an offshoot of me suggesting that a Blade, Pro-fly or Ghost are roughly the same size and shape.

If we come to that, what someone(even if they are your buddy) feels they know about someone Else's flying skills is also completely irrelevant to the topic as well.

Thanks for noticing!

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I agree with Herwig and co., there are some siginificant piloting differences with a monowing (i.e. S-Fly Expert) - particularly with control input using the hips.



Again, I totally agree with James and the others who say you fly them differently. I have three hanging in my school and I definitely fly flat out and steer with my hips in them.

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Reminds me of a Loic anecdote.

It was at Deland in 2004. He was there and someone had organized a wingsuit gathering. Two planes full of them, Loic was organizing one of the planes and as he was talking to the group before before boarding someone told him he had no idea what he was doing.

He didn't like it, that was clearly visible, but he just brushed it off and went about his business.

If someone can tell Loic he does not know how to fly, who am I? :D



As irrelevant as it is to this topic...
>>Flying Skills
>>Organizing Skills
Two very different skillsets.



Same year on the same US promo tour Loic and Kathy were out at Perris doing product demos and organizing. We had a blast. They are clearly both amazing flyers with or without wingsuits. They know what they're doing.

I flew an S-Fly demo and I loaned Loic my black and purple birdman S3..... def goodtimes.

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