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The instructor program kind of evolved into a well thought out pyramid scheme to attract lots of eager flockers coming in with lots of cash, they in turn attracting more eager cash rich wanna flockers. It quickly devolved into what we have today when a great many people realized a scheme is a scheme and their cash could be used for more flights to actually get better and not wasting it on someone who actually does not fly that well but are there to make you feel better about a FFC.
A few other companys were forced to have an instructor program even though not all do. The fact that the "structure" started out as a pyramid scheme didn't stop it from being used as a PR tool. " Look at us we have a certified safe instructor program and the others don't".
Who cares about instructors. This discipline needs trusty organizers with the equivalance of 10,000 wingsuit jumps experience. It needs events worthy of gathering the interested and skilled together so that there can be growth. Having an instructor specification governed by large organizations will not do anything to promote the above. Maybe you might actually end up with a fraction of the instructors we have today. The remaining instructors will be to busy or tired to bring the spare suits to your out of the way boogie. Thats not progress.
QuoteWho cares about instructors. This discipline needs trusty organizers with the equivalance of 10,000 wingsuit jumps experience. It needs events worthy of gathering the interested and skilled together so that there can be growth. Having an instructor specification governed by large organizations will not do anything to promote the above. Maybe you might actually end up with a fraction of the instructors we have today. The remaining instructors will be to busy or tired to bring the spare suits to your out of the way boogie. Thats not progress.
Glen, your such a Rebel...... Get back to work Cupcake.
Be safe
Ed
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
mccordia 73
QuoteSo if you are interested in WS would you take the course or read, read, read (as I have) and just go make a first flight yourself?
Knowing plenty of stories of people who did the read, read, read, and still had some bad hickups on their first jump that could have been prevented had someone given them a good 1st flight course..
Id say yes...1st hand instruction from a capable person is always 10x better then reading...
reading about a flight patern, or having someone 'walk' it with you can already be the difference between understanding it or being lost in the sky.
Maybe not for you, but plenty of low-jump-number-ahead-of-the-curve-heads-up-firsttimers out there who probably wont grasp every aspect of wingsuit flight that well from reading it in a book.
Next to the fact that a lot of the unofficial 'reading material' available online is not always the best advice possible...
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
QuoteSo if you are interested in WS would you take the course or read, read, read (as I have) and just go make a first flight yourself?
Should have, could have, knowing what I know today absolutely would have!
My experience was a lot like Kallend's, the instructor was never seen again after exit. All of my friends did not pay an instructor we were all fine. It was quite a few jumps later that we would run into another flyer who had more ability than ourselves in a wingsuit. That was due to having thousands of jumps of world class experience and not in a wingsuit. It was all FF/tracking.
It would be years before we ran into someone who was better due to being a rated WS instructor.
How well someone does on their first WS flight has much more to do with what kind of skydiver/athlete they are more so than what their instructor brings. If you are not that good then maybe you need some help.
I know people that, without any instruction, have done superbly and still set a benchmark. And by the same token jumpers who have had extensive pre training, First flight specific training and many follow up coach jumps with very capable instructors but still are very weak in wingsuits.
Then do it! You won't need freefly -speed- safe gear. Anything that is good enough for RW will work. I have an 18 year old back up rig with fresh velcro for wingsuiting. Several guys use larger, older rigs to stuff their big base canopy in. Works great.
But just about any used container now will be modern enough to use even for FF. Our old stuff is so old we can't even sell it,.... why not use it?
The111 0
QuoteHow well someone does on their first WS flight has much more to do with what kind of skydiver/athlete they are more so than what their instructor brings. If you are not that good then maybe you need some help.
I know people that, without any instruction, have done superbly and still set a benchmark. And by the same token jumpers who have had extensive pre training, First flight specific training and many follow up coach jumps with very capable instructors but still are very weak in wingsuits.
Glen, you keep referring to how "well" people do with and without instruction, and it seems to imply to me that you think the point of an instructor (rated or not) is to make you a "good" wingsuit flyer. It's not. Only practice and skills will do that. The point of an instructor is to make you a SAFE wingsuit pilot, and to bring all the major safety concerns unique to wingsuiting to your attention, in case you have overlooked one in your preparation (gear selection, jump procedures, etc). It is entirely possible to figure all these things out on your own, and it's also entirely possible to miss one of the details and have a "less than enjoyable" or even "dangerous" jump because of it. I have met a LOT of people at boogies who say they did one wingsuit jump years ago and will never do one again because they had a horrible experience and landed off. I asked them to describe their instruction and in all cases came to the conclusion that they would have been much better off with better instruction.
You are right, everybody does not need an instructor. But that does not mean instructors are useless. There is a very good reason to have experienced instructors with a comprehensive training course, and in-air/post-jump feedback.
Id say yes...1st hand instruction from a capable person is always 10x better then reading...
reading about a flight patern, or having someone 'walk' it with you can already be the difference between understanding it or being lost in the sky.
Maybe not for you, but plenty of low-jump-number-ahead-of-the-curve-heads-up-firsttimers out there who probably wont grasp every aspect of wingsuit flight that well from reading it in a book.
Next to the fact that a lot of the unofficial 'reading material' available online is not always the best advice possible...
I'm going to have disagree with every point listed. Your statements are absolutes and not individual case by case situations. This is just not our experiences.
And with that in mind I have to ask what is your complaint about the status quo of the current instructor paradigm? You say this above>
"At the moment, there isnt a boogie you can go to, without 75% of all attendees having some form of a wingsuit rating.
Yet when you see most people fly, they cant even get a normal 2 way to fly together."
You contradict yourself. How can it be 10x better having an instructor on a FFC if you say yourself they can't fly relative? Its pretty much required to fly relative to a potentially wild card student. Kind of like the examiner in an AFF course.
The first flight experience is just that getting you through the first flight and its not rocket science. If you think you need help, get some help. Flying relative to others comes from actually flying relative to others and not everybody with a WS has this luxury. We all know of the sol WingSuiter on a given DZ who was taught by a traveling instructor or the one that primarily does solos in the back country.
I will agree with your statement about online reading material not being the best advice. There was a lot of hoopla about flat spins and banning of wingsuits at certain DZs that was just laughable. These scare tactics freaked a lot of people out enough were they became scared to try stuff slowing their progress down. You must be careful but you can't be timid to the point of disfunctional.
The111 0
QuoteMaybe not for you, but plenty of low-jump-number-ahead-of-the-curve-heads-up-firsttimers out there who probably wont grasp every aspect of wingsuit flight that well from reading it in a book.
QuoteI'm going to have disagree with ever point listed. Your statements are absolutes and not individual case by case situations. This is just not our experiences.
Glen, look at the part of Jarno's post I quoted above your response. How can you possibly say that is an "absolute"? He specifically spells out that it is NOT THE SAME FOR EVERYONE, but in all cases it is BETTER to have competent instruction. Perhaps a better way to put it is that competent instruction will not in any way make your jump worse, and can either make it a little better, a lot better, or not any better at all (in the
People say there are a boat load of instructors out there and not a lot of represented skills. You say as an instructor you would have made me a safer flyer on my FFC course,NOT if you were not right there in the air next to me!
Safe, rated , respected I say FUCK the instructor all of them.......... all of them who ever took a dime from for a first flight without being right their the entire time in the air with the student. Fuck the instructor who conned free gear from a manufacturer with out the intention of being out there promoting the product. Fuck the instructor that isn't out there actively load organizing, networking with the boogie promoter to make some events happen. Fuck those guys
Meanwhile anybody and everybody involved in actively getting you some instruction , spare suits to the boogie, demos to your remote DZ, cool WS related aircraft or multiples there of, coaching for the bigway, flags- banners-Tshirts-food-judging etc.etc. In other words actively working the thankless job of WS promotion, Hail them, thank them, spend your money on them. " This beer is for you". "Real skydiver heroes"!
Matt some people just make good stuff happen in the sport they love. They need support and respect or they will stop doing it. Others say I'm safe, I'm rated, I deserve to get free stuff and paid but I don't plan to lift a finger for it. Fuck him!
Glen, your such a Rebel...... Get back to work Cupcake.
Be safe
Ed
Can you tell its a slow work week? I'm stuck here Saturday boy is this gonna get good.
Buried 0
Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?
mccordia 73
QuoteYou contradict yourself. How can it be 10x better having an instructor on a FFC if you say yourself they can't fly relative? Its pretty much required to fly relative to a potentially wild card student. Kind of like the examiner in an AFF course.
In an ideal world, everyone takes the same exam. Both based on flying skills, chasing dummy students, doing briefings, debriefing.
And some people who are out there as instructors do so, and can.
So yes..having SOMEONE (notice I never used the word instructor, I sayd capable person, so even you 'you rebel you' would fall under that catagory) who 100% deserves the actual title 'instructor' (and by that I dont mean 'officialy', just in terms of someone being good at teaching someone....then yes...that truly is 10x better then any 'reading' FJC you could do.
And Id gladly call anyone who thinks low jumpnumbers and little to no guidence getting into this dicipline an idiot..
If you truly want to fly wingsuits, there's only 2 things that are important.
Have some decent experience flying your body before you ad wings...and no matter what you think you can do at 100 jumps...come back online when you have a 1000 and tell me that is not a HUGE difference in awareness and skill..
Take the efford to listen to people who have made all the mistakes for you...who learnt things which they could teach you..both 'to do's' and 'not to do's'...
It might seem like the cool and quick thing to start flying soon, but listen to the right people, and learn from them..instead of trying to be the hot new kid, bragging how you learnt it without guidence, skill or experience and somehow survived...
Being the guy that flies safely...flies where people want to see him on a formation or to the point in the air where they expect him to open (or further), and you will be the coolest guy alive.
You can get there the easy way or the hard way.
And just inventing everything on your own, doing a lot of scary shit in the air, with the risk of hurting other people (oh yea..and yourself)...
But taking that same route with some proper guidence from people who have made all the mistakes for you, definately helps making you a safer jumper...
You dont need someone with the TITLE BMI/PFI/WS-I or whatever....you need someone who is an instructor in his heart (gay as that may sound)
Doing it for the love of flying...doing it for the smiles....and doing it because he or she wants to further the dicipline...a huge force of enthousiasm and drive to fly being what makes him or her want to teach people..
There is a whole lot of bitching about the instructor title...its useless..there probably wont be any unity in that untill something really bad happens and the organisations start making safety rules...and even then...who will take the exams..hand out titles etc.
Its a sad thing the title isnt a 100% secure way of telling if someone has the skill, attitude and drive to really be teaching someone...
But I think that was the drive behind starting it all..and still support the training of new instructors who go for such a title..
Im proud for what I did when I had the exam (2 days of flying, teaching dummy students, and even a real one) and for me..in terms of structure of a briefing...(the ground stuff) it taught me A LOT which I use in every briefing I give...
The I programs may not be flawless...half or more of the instructors out there may or may not even know how to fly...but if nobody is trying and working towards something better...this flawed and tainted instriuctorsystem is all we got...
Long rant....no point....probably......
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?
The111 0
QuoteYou say as an instructor you would have made me a safer flyer on my FFC course,NOT if you were not right there in the air next to me!
Actually, to me the ground portion of wingsuit instruction alone can provide many benefits. If Joe Schmoe reads the wingsuit forum for 2 years before buying a suit and going up by himself, he may have gleaned almost every single fact he needs to fly safely, but what if he's missing one? Here's what he knows:
- Stable canopy
- BOC
- Flight patterns
- Pull procedure
- Post opening and emergency procedures
- Instructors are worthless, fuck them
But somehow in Joe's two years of casual browsing, he never noticed any mention of exit procedures. On his first flight, he exits out the door in the best wingsuit position he can achieve (something he's been practicing on the ground for two years). He pops up and goes through the tail of the Otter, instantly killing himself, and the pilot shortly thereafter.
A competent instructor would have gone over exit procedures.
This is just one example, of where having an instructor is preferable over not. It's obvious your vendetta is against people (certain instructors you've met, no doubt), and not the concept of instructorship. You can FUCK in bold and capitals those people all you want, but in doing so you are abandoning the actual discussion at hand, which is the value of a competent instructor.
Thats what I'm saying....the USPA /BPA ...whatever introducing guidelines/min standards for wingsuiting competency and instruction outside of ( but encorporating the existing hard work done by) the manufacturers makes the standards more likely to be consistant and impartial.
I'm not saying anything about anything but have seen and read about individuals with what I would consider questionable experience being endorsed as an instructor by a manufacturer...in an area with 'limited' wingsuit instructor coverage.....read into that what you will....to me its wrong.
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