Matter

[billvon 2,400]

. . . a very interesting suit. A pain and a half to get into, but much more stable than the S3. Once you got used to the wider leg position it was rock-solid, as opposed to the constant small corrections I have to make in my S3. My perception was that both my vertical and horizontal speed slowed down, but without my protrack I don't have any numbers. One odd thing - the suit inflates so much that my rig lifted off my back about six inches. No problem for me but could be a big problem for a small person with a poorly fitting rig.

[Jiggs 0]

Did you try the MTR1 or 2?

"Don't blame malice for what stupidity can explain."

"In our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart and in our despair, against our will comes wisdom" - Aeschylus

[diablopilot 2]

The MTR1 is no longer manufactured.

Bill made a Jump (or two?) in an MTR2 from the Perris/Matter Wingsuit Demo Center and Flight School.

Oh and Bill, you'll get used to getting one on, I promise it's not harder than puting on a pair of pants!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ManBird 0]

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My perception was that both my vertical and horizontal speed slowed down, but without my protrack I don't have any numbers.

Just looking at it, it appears to have the same attribute most one-wing suits have: a lot of float and not a lot of fly. I just find it hard to believe that a suit that "thick", and with "angled" trailing edges on the arm wings could possibly get your forward speed into triple digits.

The other thing I hear a lot about these is that the performance between when you first fly it and when you get really experienced is somewhat marginal. Any unbiased takes on this?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[diablopilot 2]

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The other thing I hear a lot about these is that the performance between when you first fly it and when you get really experienced is somewhat marginal. Any unbiased takes on this?

I'm wondering how you have been hearing alot?


What do you mean "marginal". I will say I have seen pilots who have not had to "unlearn" Birdman techniques post some remarkable numbers. Those that are "unlearning" (including myself) are finding our performance improving dramaticly every jump.

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Just looking at it, it appears to have the same attribute most one-wing suits have: a lot of float and not a lot of fly. I just find it hard to believe that a suit that "thick",

How is it any "thicker? It's as thick as your body, which is exactly how thick any of the other suits are. The wings are no thicker, as the ribs are what determine their size. An advantage the body wing had is no parasitic drag from the wing/body joint. The smooth transition produces more lift.

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"angled" trailing edges on the arm wings could possibly get your forward speed into triple digits.

The angle is not severe at all, and why do you think that would have a negative effect on the foward speed? The leg wing on most suits provides the drive.

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Just looking at it, it appears to have the same attribute most one-wing suits have:

Don't lump it in with anything else. It's a totaly refined product. You ought to see the video of it side by side with an S3 in Norway last week.

Remember minds and parachutes.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[unclecharlie109 0]

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Any unbiased takes on this?

ermm Diablopilot do you have any vested interest in positive correspondance regarding said article?

[SimonM 0]

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The other thing I hear a lot about these is that the performance between when you first fly it and when you get really experienced is somewhat marginal. Any unbiased takes on this?

Not sure that I agree. I have around 25 jumps on my S-fly now and I am definitely improving on every jump. I have noticed that my forward speed in particular has been improving while fall rates have only improved slightly from the first couple of jumps.

I have done a couple of jumps with people on GTi's who pretty much nail their suits (I had no chance of staying with them when I was on my Classic2) and I seem to be able to match their forward speed relatively easilty.

Finally I saw some footage of Loic flying his S-fly the other day (I think it was on the crosswinds DVD) and the aerobatic manouvers he was pulling made my eyes pop out.

Cheers,

Simon

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The bottom line when it comes to "getting better" is simply jumping your damn suit. You will never master anything if you do not go out and practice. One wingsuit jump per day, at least initially, will make for a very slow learning curve. Loic is masterful in his S-fly because the jumps the piss out of it.

Chuck

[SimonM 0]

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One wingsuit jump per day, at least initially, will make for a very slow learning curve.

Agreed 100%.

I have also struggled to get away from an obsession with achieving slowest fall rates measured on my Pro track.

It wasnt until I started to do some flocking dives and get some real forward drive on solo jumps that I began to focus on other areas of performance.

I now think I know just enough to realise how much more there is to learn!

Simon

[VectorBoy 0]

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One odd thing - the suit inflates so much that my rig lifted off my back about six inches. No problem for me but could be a big problem for a small person with a poorly fitting rig.

Bill I had the same thing occur on my first five jumps. I fly with looser legs straps than I should though and simply corrected it, no problems since. This also keep the suit tighter in the shoulders and allows me to work the legs more.

I found the suit to be pretty much the same as you describe as far as stability, even back flying. Although I didn't get the sensation of tremendous forward drive at first. When working my way to the sweet spot which took about 7 or so solo jumps I do feel some nice things happening. But since they were solos I have very little to compare to even though I fly with a protrac and two neptunes ( sold the tracking software a while ago and rely more on catching the six foot 140# guy with hollow bones in an S3 as true benchmark of glideslope performance )

[VectorBoy 0]

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The bottom line when it comes to "getting better" is simply jumping your damn suit. You will never master anything if you do not go out and practice. One wingsuit jump per day, at least initially, will make for a very slow learning curve. Loic is masterful in his S-fly because the jumps the piss out of it.

Chuck

I get this same question all of the time from people thinking about buying a wingsuit. For people that are swept away by the new wing revolution, that I know personally will be flying their suit often if not mostly. Its not much of an issue for them and they will transition quickly after a handfull of jumps on a borrowed classic, and how many depends on the skills that they bring, to a more performing suit.

For the people that DON"T fly or flock that much, who do mostly other things and won't be that current on a wingsuit the natural advice ( and I would have to agree with this advice ) is to start on a easy and stable suit to fly and deploy in then slowly work up enough experience to eventually get into a more capable suit. This learning curve depends mostly on them.

There were a handfull of jumpers asking a group of veteran wingsuit jumpers about "which suit" to get and when they heard this universal advice of a multi suit progression they told me they were sold on the matter2 as it is both stable and easy to learn on yet VERY capable in the right hands.

[VectorBoy 0]

I have also struggled to get away from an obsession with achieving slowest fall rates measured on my Pro track. ***

This is a trap we all get into, worse if we just do solos on a one wingsuit DZ. I didn't even own a protrac until I got a wingsuit, then came software. I thought one day I would end up with a tremendous UHF antenna on my helmet and a belly mounted data pack. One thing I learned from the first generation of classic 1 pilots that did solos and jumped there suits infrequently, was that this was only fun for a little while. Most of these people ended up selling their 4 year old barely used suits.
MAXED solo flight can be exciting if you MUST outfly the talus but its no way of life for regular WS skydiving.
Flocking baby! For some jumpers this means getting to DZ's with other flockers or boogies. Formations, vertical extensions, extensions with the tip flyers barrel rolling across the piece, back flying........ Get video. Laugh, learn, live, love!
Then do it again!

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Right. I seriously don't give a shit about any of the techie crap; I am in it for the social flocking aspect of it. I enjoy doing a little aerobatics, but not solo. I never jump my wingsuit solo.

[diablopilot 2]

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I never jump my wingsuit solo.

Full on Ditto. I find it quite boring.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 558]

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Right. I seriously don't give a shit about any of the techie crap; I am in it for the social flocking aspect of it. I enjoy doing a little aerobatics, but not solo. I never jump my wingsuit solo.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Flocking is what separates wingsuit flying from all the other skydiving disciplines that have come and gone: classic accuracy, free style, sky-boarding, etc.
Wingsuit flying will last because it is a SOCIAL way to fly.

[Pendragon 1]

How different are these suits when it comes to flocking, i.e. is a wearer of one of the following likely to get left behind?

- S3
- GTI
- Matter
- S-Fly

Or is the difference easily overcome by individuals controlling forward speed/fall rate etc.?

I understand the theories but just curious to know how it works in practice!

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[ManBird 0]

I do enjoy flying with others. It presents a challenge unto itself and allows me to develop a pretty big, fat skillset (especially taking up students). But I must say that I'm one of those freaks that gets off on the feeling of maxed out solo flight. When I see the ground moving from near full altitude and hear almost nothing at all, that's when I'm happiest in a wingsuit.

When I look out the door and think, "this is really damn far out here," but then open past the DZ, it's a pretty big rush. When I lock onto the sweet spot and hold it without flinching for over three minutes, it's a pretty big rush.

The gadgetry just comes along with being a geek. They are tools that allow for a different type of challenge. When I know exactly what kind of glide ratio I can get, it allows me to challenge myself with bigger distances.

I am glad that this sport does have such a great social aspect. I've heard some people say that wingsuits will go the way of the boards because it's just as "different". I agree that disciplines like skysurfing, speed diving, etc are scarce now because people got sick of doing it alone. Any discipline that allows for group activity tends to remain and grow. I have no doubt that several years from now we'll be able to go back to those who thought this was a fad and say, "Where's my cabbage, bitch?!"

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[bodypilot1 0]

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I never jump my wingsuit solo.

I do.
Sometimes I enjoy getting out last and keeping my eye on the tandem drouge and then swooping past a tandem under canopy.
And when I returned from the 357 way in Thailand, it was GREAT to get out alone and do a long flight also to air out.
The part of jumping solo to see how long I can fly is well over, but it's what ALL new wingsuit flyers do at first....

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[VectorBoy 0]

I only have experienced The classic 2 ( same as the classic 1 but with easier to get into double front zippers.). A prototype S3 ( same wing, just had some experimental back vents and airlocks for back flying. ). A production S3 and the matter2.
Never tried the GTI.

The classic being bird-mans original was the suit that kinda started it for them. Happy with that, the GTI provided more while still being easy to fly and deploy in. Keep in mind I've personaly never flown one.

Some wingsuit pilots were wanting even more than the GTI offered so the skyflyer was developed. A little tricky to fly some jumpers called it "twitchy" it featured a narrower leg stance. Although I've never flown one jumpers that have said it gave them more forward speed than Bird-man's classics and GTIs but at a cost of stability and ease of flight. Probably ( and I'm generalizing here ) the least liked suit and the most demanding of the Bird-man products.

Bird-man's Skyflyer3 has even more wing on top and on the leg also with a wider leg stance. It seems to serve up more speed and flatter glide without the sacrifice in stability.

The crossbow, S-fly and Matter1 are all variations of a blended body mono-wing as the Birdman products are a body suit with wings attached to the arms and torso then again across the legs. The mono-wing suits vary mostly in construction quality and customer support. The suits themselves were of a similar design and planform. That is until the Matter 2 was introduced. It featured a longer and wider leg portion of wing giving it more in terms of forward drive and flatter glide.

Talking to people that have flown the X-bow,S-fly,M-1 I was told that these suits, although stable to fly, floated more and sank less than the bird-man suits but they lagged behind in terms of forward speed. This could be bad if you are organizing a mixed wing flock. Again I have no personal experience flying or flocking with the early mono-wing suits.

The Matter 2, on the other hand, flys nicely along with any of the bird-man suits.

To answer your question most of the suits have a very overlapping "flight envelope" They can all be flown relaxed flocking with the flyers in other suits as long as everybody is doing their part to stay in it. Flocks take place in relaxed body posture making allowances for small movements possible. When I am referring to the MORE offered by some suits I'm talking about being in a body position that can be tiring and is not suited for flocking. Max efficient flight is something your reserve for solo flights or break-off from formations just like max tracking after a freefall.
And above all all of this is subjective to the jumpers point of view. I don't care if you take along ten protracs or GPS system. We have no way to know our true performance in the winds aloft. You may think you are covering some serious ground only to find you have killer tailwinds. Good luck in getting the 10 protracs or neptunes to agree.
Video will verify that you were aloft for X amount of time, but guess what you can do better if you take that big camera helmet off and just fly with a sleek helmet or nothing.
We could always invest in ground based telemetry but we are not testing missles or we could just do what the respective factories probably do... jump more.

The market for flyers that just want the flattest glide regardless of other factors is small, really small if it comes as decrease in other wingsuit performance variables. Bird-man knows this! What you will probably see more and more of are suits that are easy to hook up and get into. Stable and fun to fly. Not scary to deploy in and play nice with other wingsuits while maintaining a broad flight spectrum.
And remember that , just like when we talk about a canopy, its the pilot not the product!

I hope this helps.

[ManBird 0]

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We have no way to know our true performance in the winds aloft.

Well, you can get pretty damn close by knowing the wind speed and direction at different altitudes, and there are services that provide this info. There's pretty much always some wind aloft. Rather than try to pinpoint what you can do without it, it's best to find ways to benefit from it. If you're fortunate enough to have 50+ knots behind you for most of yoru altitude, don't fight it -- fly a couple extra miles! Utilizing the wind to increase your distance is skill unto itself. Exiting 10° off of a perfect tailwind can take a huge chunk from your potential distance.

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And remember that, just like when we talk about a canopy, its the pilot not the product!

Too true. With wingsuits, in addition pilot's skill, the pilot's physical attributes make some big contributions to their performance.

As far as who's "getting left behind", no one should be getting left behind. In a flock, everyone should be flying as well as the lowest person (within reason)... just like a tracking dive.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[greybeard 0]

I'm calling for a huge "HOORAH" for vectorboy. That last post was a great start onto what I've been enjoying most about this whole evolution in sky flight.
All the due respect for the suit manufactures and sales oriented folk aside.

The crux of the wingsuit era now upon us is the flock. The fun and pure joy of flight together.

Hells bells, I had as much fun just watching bill & amy launch together and grab air as my own launch.

This wingsuit thing, ( flying v/s falling ) can and will surley evolve as those of us current, present it to the rest of the sky community, as a fun and fantastic social flocking thing.

Lets let safety be the premier prerequisite.

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm calling for a huge "HOORAH" for vectorboy.

I'm with you on that one. Capturing the essence and all!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

We are not sucking in our wingsuits. The flock is immense now. If last year's WFFC was any indication of things to come, I doubt there will be a single tailgate aircraft that leaves the convention grounds this year without a wingsuiter on board. With this increased activity comes more individual navigational skill responsibility. The ability to exit as a group and stay in that group becomes paramount in the large-boogie scenario. Head-on collisions between flock members (or entire flocks) would be very ugly. Expect very-structured briefings every morning at the convention and be prepared to stick with whatever flight plan we come up with.

I am running the BirdMan (Incorporated) booth/tent at the convention this year and I will be giving the seminar on whatever evening it falls this year. Other certified BM-I's who wish to gainfully employ themselves are more than welcome to help out. PM me for details.

Chuck Blue
BMCI

[The111 0]

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Head-on collisions between flock members (or entire flocks) would be very ugly.

Is it too morbidly inappropriate to admit that I laughed when I pictured two large flocks running head on into each other? Seriously - safety's important. But come on, picture it - that shit's funny.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[VectorBoy 0]

The ability to exit as a group and stay in that group becomes paramount in the large-boogie scenario. Head-on collisions between flock members (or entire flocks) would be very ugly. Expect very-structured briefings every morning at the convention and be prepared to stick with whatever flight plan we come up with.

Chuck Blue
BMCI