skyjuggler 0 #1 January 10, 2004 I am interested to know what the general thoughts on trackers at your dropzone are, regarding which skydivers track the best. I would always say freeflyers, as it is a discipline which freeflyers train at, and play with. However a friend at a large and famous Florida dropzone who is a freefly coach reckoned that at that DZ the best trackers were flat flyers as they have to get away from large formations. Whilst I appreciate this opinion, and understand that some people's opinions of freefly is purely vertical, I find it difficult to believe. What do people think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 January 10, 2004 Have you ever seen RW flyers as they flat track out of a big way? Freefliers on tracking dives have horrible tracks.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #3 January 10, 2004 Can't vote on this one. It's not an either/ or choice. It's a matter of developing a skill and you can suck or excel at tracking from either discipline. I do mostly 4-way and big ways but I've been on tracking dives at SDC w/ Alchemy and Loki which challenged my skills staying with them. (it was a really flat track) I think it's just a matter of developing a skill. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #4 January 10, 2004 I'm not really sure how to answer the poll. Without doubt, some of the best trackers are know are relative workers. On the other hand, some of the worst trackers I know are relative workers as well. Freefliers are scarce in my country, let alone at my club, but most of us can haul ass at break-off, although we also have some more initial vertical speed to work with. If I should decide on a certain group of people for their superior tracking, I'd probably choose base jumpers- after all, walls are far less forgiving than the sky and good technique is that more important for them than for either belly- or freeflyers. Furthermore, I'm not sure doing freefly tracking dives has a very big impact on "real" tracking skills- i.e. going faster, longer and slower. Freefly tracks are, if I understand correctly, mostly about flocking together and having fun, not getting as far as possible. As for opinions about freefly- I know exactly what you mean. I like both hard tracking solo dives and relaxed flocks with more people, but most of the freefliers I've jumped or jump with don't show much enthusiasm for those kind of jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #5 January 10, 2004 You will never fly Big way RW without very good tracking skills. And working your way there your peers will critique that ability constantly. Tracking at break off for either discipline is different. RW conserve altitude, turn, track fast and flat. For free flying speeds are fast and you don't want to cork so you do a gradual transition to this flat and fast position. Using this extra speed may give the impression of incredulous extra tracking ability. Then again the RWer has to do this from a stand still without going head low at the start. Then there is the BASE jumper who has to do this from a stand still in zero air before ever getting to terminal or else. Free flyers are always tracking for fun maybe doing tricks in the form of relative tracking. Or playing smear the leader combat tracking. Yet flying a little dirty so every one can play. The excellent flyers in both disciplines have some of the best tracking ability. Its probably harder to get away with poor tracking skills in RW. If you do mostly small way RW at a small cessna dropzone it may not be as criticall as the person that is on 20 way RW every weekend. The only way to find out is to attend a tracking camp doing several days of nothing but and see where you stand. You will have fun and you learn somthing. I hope this helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjuggler 0 #6 January 10, 2004 Quote Have you ever seen RW flyers as they flat track out of a big way? Freefliers on tracking dives have horrible tracks. That's what this friend was telling me. I have seen some horrible track positions, notably the rabbits: sinking and no speed. I guess this tends to be a thing DZ to DZ, as where I have jumped the last few years, there is a high importance put on tracking, the angles it is done in and the efficiency of the positions. From my neck of the woods every flat flyer I have tracked with has sucked arse!!! However I do know of a few Belgian Army guys who are taking freefly coaching and also happen to very good on their bellies who can track well!!! I find it so weird that so many people have the opinion that belly fliers track better. I don't disbelieve people, its just from my experience this is not the case. But then I have met some freeflyers with horrible belly skills so that is understandable!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjuggler 0 #7 January 10, 2004 Quote Furthermore, I'm not sure doing freefly tracking dives has a very big impact on "real" tracking skills- i.e. going faster, longer and slower. Freefly tracks are, if I understand correctly, mostly about flocking together and having fun, not getting as far as possible I guess that's the difference with people's experience. Some freeflyers do a track at the end of the day for fun with different goals to those who train at the discipline. Tracking in my mind is a discipline within freefly and is an essential skill which will not only help with head down but also opens up all the other angles of flight and not just head down in the vertical.....but that is another story. Tracking jumps which as flat and fast, contain slots, proximity, passes and changes of angle are definately difficult and require training. As far as BASE jumpers go, I reckon who ever said it is correct, the efficiency of the track can really be noticed by the ground covered and of cause the proximity to the ground, so the jumper can really see the distance travelled. But that is another story as well. I find it interesting to hear peoples opinions of tracking. But without doubt as we all know, there are some amazing flyers from either discipline who track very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #8 January 10, 2004 Furthermore, I'm not sure doing freefly tracking dives has a very big impact on "real" tracking skills- i.e. going faster, longer and slower. Freefly tracks are, if I understand correctly, mostly about flocking together and having fun, not getting as far as possible. Quote In my reference to combat tracking you better believe the rabbit is going to get away fast and flat or be funneled by several guys at once that want his slot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deaffreeflyer 0 #9 January 11, 2004 Flatflyer tend to use booties and fit, slim jumpsuit with minimum dragging. I did a lot of tracking at my DZ cos it's my favourite dive. On a few track dives one of my mate was a RW skydiver, he used his RW jumpsuit. He tracked just like a piece of cake, he doing 'lazy' tracking (he arched a lot and his leg were total straight) and stayed so close with rabbit most of dive. I teased and called him the cheat bastard and took the piss out of him on track dives. I used my FF suit with 'medium' dragging. I tend to de-arch, roll my shoulder, dive at steep angle and flying like atomunati / babylon guys. I found this flying much more effective, flexible and very fast. I have no problem stay with rabbit but I had to 'brake' lot of time by use my arms and legs spreaded out to slow down. I wonder if my mate can do this. I don't think so. I reckon flatflyer is good at max out and lifting tracking. Freeflyers are better at having fun time and better skills at various speeds, barrel rolls, back tracking, docks, formation etc... Oh yeah I forget to add:- I did 15 way deaf world record jumps last september and a guy with some 1500 jumps under his belt joined us. On every jumps, at the break off point I tracked away with plenty of lifts and I was bit surprised to see how this guy tracked away, he had no lift at all. Basically he dived toward earth and burned a lot of alti before he pulled. He was the most lowest puller than us! I guess it's depends on every individual. Excuse me for my lousy English. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #10 January 11, 2004 Who are the best trackers? I would put my bet on the birdmen....______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hazarrd 1 #11 January 11, 2004 you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #12 January 11, 2004 Quoteyou put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? ROFLMAO!!!! That is EXACTLY what "I was thinking! Actually, it began with belly flyers "winning" as the best trackers. It was really pretty funny. Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. (I am new, but I truly learned to track very well from RW training. Skyjuggler, are you willing to put this same poll in General Skydiving Discussions to see if this will be a less biased poll? Actually, even if you don't repoll, the final scores are irrelevant as being one discipline or another doesn't instantly make you a better or worse tracker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #13 January 11, 2004 On their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazyfrog 0 #14 January 11, 2004 at my DZ mostly FF's are on the track jumps. But som RW's sometimes join in... as said above, RW's must track well, but the booties help a lot...---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #15 January 12, 2004 Quote Freefliers on tracking dives have horrible tracks. Not always. That depends on who is leading it, and whether they can keep it nice and fast horizontally, while keeping it slow vertically. But yeah, belly flyer tracks are awesome. I bet we could track like that too if we had booties.... Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #16 January 12, 2004 QuoteOn their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. No way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. As far as who's the best? I'll share what I've noticed but it's tough to say if it's accurate. Belly RW folk are use used to flying on their bellys. They tend to have a bit of discipline where as your average freefyer has very little discipline. During most tracking dives, the object is not to see how fast you can track. It's just to see how relative you can fly during the track. There are people who are very talented at tracking dives but are average when it comes to speed or distant tracking. During a regular freefly dive, a good portion of Freeflyers, have speed on their side. When the flatten out they can be very far away in a short time just because of the transition from head down to horizontal. Belly RW folks, Are used to turning away from the center of the formation and blasting off and getting the heck out of there. They've put much thought into the dive, and put a lot of thought into tracking away. I love it when RW folks come tracking. They have a blast and it bridges a gap. So who knows. People who practice tracking fast, will certainly be better at it. I have no answer to the poll. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #17 January 12, 2004 Hey Tim. If you come to Crosskeys, we should have a race. Me on my back and you on your belly. You in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #18 January 12, 2004 OooKaAAaaayyy... I'd love to. I don't have plans to be in Crosskeys any time soon though. Do you have any plans to be in California? I'll stand by my original post. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjuggler 0 #19 January 12, 2004 Quote you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? I didn't know what the answer would be, that's why I asked the question. Quote Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. Yes I am biased to freefly , however I still thought it was an interesting question. The results are irrelevant, I think it's good to see the general feeling, and see what people have to say, so that's why I asked. Sharing of ideas and all. As I write the poll is 40% belly flyers 60% freeflyers, so thanks for the experiences shared. Also it shows how honest and unbiased freeflyers are!!!! My original question was prompted by the other thread in the forum regarding tracking. As I did not want to hijack it I started another thread. I wasn't looking for a name of the best tracker, just peoples opinions and thoughts on the topic. It's been cool to hear all the answers. I find the thoughts on tracking and what is involved great, there appears to be a good diverse range of jumps and what people want from them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wzettler 0 #20 January 12, 2004 IMO I think that people who practice the most are going to be the best. I have seen poor and great trackers in both diciplines. And just to be a smart-ass (since its not a category listed) but with a serious answer, I think the best trackers are the BASE jumpers who jump the big walls in Norway and around the world. Some of those guys track like they are wearing wing suits, without the suits (due to pantz or not). Thats my .02... edited to add: I did vote for FFs though if you want to know... I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #21 January 12, 2004 Juggler - Putting people into the either/or catagory? What about those who do both? They likely have the best feel for what the air can do for them. Worst discipline for learning tracking - CrW. I voted RW based on exerience watching both types. But I'd rather vote for body type and experience rather than 'primary' discipline. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Staso 0 #22 January 12, 2004 i voted belly fliers. also try to created the same poll in RW forum and see what results will be ... stan -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danwayland 0 #23 January 12, 2004 QuoteNo way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. I dunno about that. I think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. Cool tracking dive photo I recently took - photo is actually a bit counter-prodcutive to my point because the belly guys are clearly having to arch pretty hard, but hey, it looks cool: http://danwayland.com/cgi-bin/i/030907/tracking2.jpg -- Dan Wayland http://www.danwayland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #24 January 12, 2004 QuoteI think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. I mean horizontal speed. I don't care about verticle speed to much. When I track fast horizontally, it actually feels like my verticle speed is higher. I've never checked but I can watch the ground go by and can feel it when it kicks in. There are plenty of good back trackers, I feel that I'm pretty good at it myself. I still tend to think the front of the body is more suited for winning the annual tracking contest. Edit: Nice Picture!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjuggler 0 #25 January 12, 2004 I finally thought about getting some pictures to visually describe the type of tracking I refer to for freeflyers, which I probably so poorly described earlier, and explain my thoughts a little. As I mentioned previously my original question was intended to find out other's experiences regarding tracking. Here are some of mine. I think most will reckonise tracking as per danwayland's photo, belly flyers arching and staying behind the rabbit. Also, some have mentioned back tracking might be more efficient than tracking on your belly, I personally think the belly has so much more potential. The other thread regarding tracking in the freefly forum also touches on some good points, but I have finally found some pictures that will show some of the tracking and thinking about. The 2 pictures are nicked from PD's webpage, and are of Ippo, Lele and Alex from Aria. They have spent alot of time tracking together working on their proximity and their trajectories. They are very fast and track like demons but all around the sky. The final photo is from the XFest and has some very tastey flyers. Along with some of freeflyers, this is why I think freeflyers are better trackers. They actively train at the discipline and take alot of time and jumps to focus on them. If it was a straight track race for horizontal distance, I think those who train at it will become better, and from my experience the freeflyers I know train at it and consequently are pretty good. The picture of Ippo and Alex shows use of their torsos, knees and legs. No arches are present. By using their knee's to loose alitutde, they can accelerate better and not loose their speed when they start to stretch out. They are also de arched to catch more air and their torso's are angled down a little, producing more drive. Bascially they are showing very efficient tracking positions which are very fast forward. I hope they don't mind me using the photos for the purpose of this explanation. Some jumpers I know believe that tracking jumps should be fast and are natural selection. These are still group of flocking jumps, just at a fast speed. If you can't keep up then you have to get better. Also the nature of the tracking jumps are different. By being on head level rather than behind the rabbit, angles can be experimented with and the horizontal speeds are better. By angles I mean off the horizontal towards 45 degrees. The photo from the Xfest shows the head level and slight angle. And before I get jumped on it is probably at the end of a very flat atmonauti jump!! (Which is the same as tracking but in an angle, ideally 45 degrees) My experience and still my belief is that freeflyers exhibit the best tracking skills, not because they are born any different but because they train at it. Hopefully these photos might summarise some of my thoughts!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
skyjuggler 0 #7 January 10, 2004 Quote Furthermore, I'm not sure doing freefly tracking dives has a very big impact on "real" tracking skills- i.e. going faster, longer and slower. Freefly tracks are, if I understand correctly, mostly about flocking together and having fun, not getting as far as possible I guess that's the difference with people's experience. Some freeflyers do a track at the end of the day for fun with different goals to those who train at the discipline. Tracking in my mind is a discipline within freefly and is an essential skill which will not only help with head down but also opens up all the other angles of flight and not just head down in the vertical.....but that is another story. Tracking jumps which as flat and fast, contain slots, proximity, passes and changes of angle are definately difficult and require training. As far as BASE jumpers go, I reckon who ever said it is correct, the efficiency of the track can really be noticed by the ground covered and of cause the proximity to the ground, so the jumper can really see the distance travelled. But that is another story as well. I find it interesting to hear peoples opinions of tracking. But without doubt as we all know, there are some amazing flyers from either discipline who track very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #8 January 10, 2004 Furthermore, I'm not sure doing freefly tracking dives has a very big impact on "real" tracking skills- i.e. going faster, longer and slower. Freefly tracks are, if I understand correctly, mostly about flocking together and having fun, not getting as far as possible. Quote In my reference to combat tracking you better believe the rabbit is going to get away fast and flat or be funneled by several guys at once that want his slot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deaffreeflyer 0 #9 January 11, 2004 Flatflyer tend to use booties and fit, slim jumpsuit with minimum dragging. I did a lot of tracking at my DZ cos it's my favourite dive. On a few track dives one of my mate was a RW skydiver, he used his RW jumpsuit. He tracked just like a piece of cake, he doing 'lazy' tracking (he arched a lot and his leg were total straight) and stayed so close with rabbit most of dive. I teased and called him the cheat bastard and took the piss out of him on track dives. I used my FF suit with 'medium' dragging. I tend to de-arch, roll my shoulder, dive at steep angle and flying like atomunati / babylon guys. I found this flying much more effective, flexible and very fast. I have no problem stay with rabbit but I had to 'brake' lot of time by use my arms and legs spreaded out to slow down. I wonder if my mate can do this. I don't think so. I reckon flatflyer is good at max out and lifting tracking. Freeflyers are better at having fun time and better skills at various speeds, barrel rolls, back tracking, docks, formation etc... Oh yeah I forget to add:- I did 15 way deaf world record jumps last september and a guy with some 1500 jumps under his belt joined us. On every jumps, at the break off point I tracked away with plenty of lifts and I was bit surprised to see how this guy tracked away, he had no lift at all. Basically he dived toward earth and burned a lot of alti before he pulled. He was the most lowest puller than us! I guess it's depends on every individual. Excuse me for my lousy English. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #10 January 11, 2004 Who are the best trackers? I would put my bet on the birdmen....______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hazarrd 1 #11 January 11, 2004 you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #12 January 11, 2004 Quoteyou put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? ROFLMAO!!!! That is EXACTLY what "I was thinking! Actually, it began with belly flyers "winning" as the best trackers. It was really pretty funny. Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. (I am new, but I truly learned to track very well from RW training. Skyjuggler, are you willing to put this same poll in General Skydiving Discussions to see if this will be a less biased poll? Actually, even if you don't repoll, the final scores are irrelevant as being one discipline or another doesn't instantly make you a better or worse tracker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #13 January 11, 2004 On their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lazyfrog 0 #14 January 11, 2004 at my DZ mostly FF's are on the track jumps. But som RW's sometimes join in... as said above, RW's must track well, but the booties help a lot...---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #15 January 12, 2004 Quote Freefliers on tracking dives have horrible tracks. Not always. That depends on who is leading it, and whether they can keep it nice and fast horizontally, while keeping it slow vertically. But yeah, belly flyer tracks are awesome. I bet we could track like that too if we had booties.... Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #16 January 12, 2004 QuoteOn their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. No way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. As far as who's the best? I'll share what I've noticed but it's tough to say if it's accurate. Belly RW folk are use used to flying on their bellys. They tend to have a bit of discipline where as your average freefyer has very little discipline. During most tracking dives, the object is not to see how fast you can track. It's just to see how relative you can fly during the track. There are people who are very talented at tracking dives but are average when it comes to speed or distant tracking. During a regular freefly dive, a good portion of Freeflyers, have speed on their side. When the flatten out they can be very far away in a short time just because of the transition from head down to horizontal. Belly RW folks, Are used to turning away from the center of the formation and blasting off and getting the heck out of there. They've put much thought into the dive, and put a lot of thought into tracking away. I love it when RW folks come tracking. They have a blast and it bridges a gap. So who knows. People who practice tracking fast, will certainly be better at it. I have no answer to the poll. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #17 January 12, 2004 Hey Tim. If you come to Crosskeys, we should have a race. Me on my back and you on your belly. You in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #18 January 12, 2004 OooKaAAaaayyy... I'd love to. I don't have plans to be in Crosskeys any time soon though. Do you have any plans to be in California? I'll stand by my original post. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjuggler 0 #19 January 12, 2004 Quote you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? I didn't know what the answer would be, that's why I asked the question. Quote Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. Yes I am biased to freefly , however I still thought it was an interesting question. The results are irrelevant, I think it's good to see the general feeling, and see what people have to say, so that's why I asked. Sharing of ideas and all. As I write the poll is 40% belly flyers 60% freeflyers, so thanks for the experiences shared. Also it shows how honest and unbiased freeflyers are!!!! My original question was prompted by the other thread in the forum regarding tracking. As I did not want to hijack it I started another thread. I wasn't looking for a name of the best tracker, just peoples opinions and thoughts on the topic. It's been cool to hear all the answers. I find the thoughts on tracking and what is involved great, there appears to be a good diverse range of jumps and what people want from them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wzettler 0 #20 January 12, 2004 IMO I think that people who practice the most are going to be the best. I have seen poor and great trackers in both diciplines. And just to be a smart-ass (since its not a category listed) but with a serious answer, I think the best trackers are the BASE jumpers who jump the big walls in Norway and around the world. Some of those guys track like they are wearing wing suits, without the suits (due to pantz or not). Thats my .02... edited to add: I did vote for FFs though if you want to know... I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #21 January 12, 2004 Juggler - Putting people into the either/or catagory? What about those who do both? They likely have the best feel for what the air can do for them. Worst discipline for learning tracking - CrW. I voted RW based on exerience watching both types. But I'd rather vote for body type and experience rather than 'primary' discipline. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Staso 0 #22 January 12, 2004 i voted belly fliers. also try to created the same poll in RW forum and see what results will be ... stan -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites danwayland 0 #23 January 12, 2004 QuoteNo way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. I dunno about that. I think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. Cool tracking dive photo I recently took - photo is actually a bit counter-prodcutive to my point because the belly guys are clearly having to arch pretty hard, but hey, it looks cool: http://danwayland.com/cgi-bin/i/030907/tracking2.jpg -- Dan Wayland http://www.danwayland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #24 January 12, 2004 QuoteI think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. I mean horizontal speed. I don't care about verticle speed to much. When I track fast horizontally, it actually feels like my verticle speed is higher. I've never checked but I can watch the ground go by and can feel it when it kicks in. There are plenty of good back trackers, I feel that I'm pretty good at it myself. I still tend to think the front of the body is more suited for winning the annual tracking contest. Edit: Nice Picture!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjuggler 0 #25 January 12, 2004 I finally thought about getting some pictures to visually describe the type of tracking I refer to for freeflyers, which I probably so poorly described earlier, and explain my thoughts a little. As I mentioned previously my original question was intended to find out other's experiences regarding tracking. Here are some of mine. I think most will reckonise tracking as per danwayland's photo, belly flyers arching and staying behind the rabbit. Also, some have mentioned back tracking might be more efficient than tracking on your belly, I personally think the belly has so much more potential. The other thread regarding tracking in the freefly forum also touches on some good points, but I have finally found some pictures that will show some of the tracking and thinking about. The 2 pictures are nicked from PD's webpage, and are of Ippo, Lele and Alex from Aria. They have spent alot of time tracking together working on their proximity and their trajectories. They are very fast and track like demons but all around the sky. The final photo is from the XFest and has some very tastey flyers. Along with some of freeflyers, this is why I think freeflyers are better trackers. They actively train at the discipline and take alot of time and jumps to focus on them. If it was a straight track race for horizontal distance, I think those who train at it will become better, and from my experience the freeflyers I know train at it and consequently are pretty good. The picture of Ippo and Alex shows use of their torsos, knees and legs. No arches are present. By using their knee's to loose alitutde, they can accelerate better and not loose their speed when they start to stretch out. They are also de arched to catch more air and their torso's are angled down a little, producing more drive. Bascially they are showing very efficient tracking positions which are very fast forward. I hope they don't mind me using the photos for the purpose of this explanation. Some jumpers I know believe that tracking jumps should be fast and are natural selection. These are still group of flocking jumps, just at a fast speed. If you can't keep up then you have to get better. Also the nature of the tracking jumps are different. By being on head level rather than behind the rabbit, angles can be experimented with and the horizontal speeds are better. By angles I mean off the horizontal towards 45 degrees. The photo from the Xfest shows the head level and slight angle. And before I get jumped on it is probably at the end of a very flat atmonauti jump!! (Which is the same as tracking but in an angle, ideally 45 degrees) My experience and still my belief is that freeflyers exhibit the best tracking skills, not because they are born any different but because they train at it. Hopefully these photos might summarise some of my thoughts!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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deaffreeflyer 0 #9 January 11, 2004 Flatflyer tend to use booties and fit, slim jumpsuit with minimum dragging. I did a lot of tracking at my DZ cos it's my favourite dive. On a few track dives one of my mate was a RW skydiver, he used his RW jumpsuit. He tracked just like a piece of cake, he doing 'lazy' tracking (he arched a lot and his leg were total straight) and stayed so close with rabbit most of dive. I teased and called him the cheat bastard and took the piss out of him on track dives. I used my FF suit with 'medium' dragging. I tend to de-arch, roll my shoulder, dive at steep angle and flying like atomunati / babylon guys. I found this flying much more effective, flexible and very fast. I have no problem stay with rabbit but I had to 'brake' lot of time by use my arms and legs spreaded out to slow down. I wonder if my mate can do this. I don't think so. I reckon flatflyer is good at max out and lifting tracking. Freeflyers are better at having fun time and better skills at various speeds, barrel rolls, back tracking, docks, formation etc... Oh yeah I forget to add:- I did 15 way deaf world record jumps last september and a guy with some 1500 jumps under his belt joined us. On every jumps, at the break off point I tracked away with plenty of lifts and I was bit surprised to see how this guy tracked away, he had no lift at all. Basically he dived toward earth and burned a lot of alti before he pulled. He was the most lowest puller than us! I guess it's depends on every individual. Excuse me for my lousy English. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #10 January 11, 2004 Who are the best trackers? I would put my bet on the birdmen....______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hazarrd 1 #11 January 11, 2004 you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #12 January 11, 2004 Quoteyou put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? ROFLMAO!!!! That is EXACTLY what "I was thinking! Actually, it began with belly flyers "winning" as the best trackers. It was really pretty funny. Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. (I am new, but I truly learned to track very well from RW training. Skyjuggler, are you willing to put this same poll in General Skydiving Discussions to see if this will be a less biased poll? Actually, even if you don't repoll, the final scores are irrelevant as being one discipline or another doesn't instantly make you a better or worse tracker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #13 January 11, 2004 On their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazyfrog 0 #14 January 11, 2004 at my DZ mostly FF's are on the track jumps. But som RW's sometimes join in... as said above, RW's must track well, but the booties help a lot...---------- Fumer tue, péter pue ------------- ourson #10, Mosquito Uno, CBT 579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #15 January 12, 2004 Quote Freefliers on tracking dives have horrible tracks. Not always. That depends on who is leading it, and whether they can keep it nice and fast horizontally, while keeping it slow vertically. But yeah, belly flyer tracks are awesome. I bet we could track like that too if we had booties.... Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #16 January 12, 2004 QuoteOn their back or stomach? I think it makes a difference. However, those who are used to tracking on their back will cover way more distance than on their belly. No way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. As far as who's the best? I'll share what I've noticed but it's tough to say if it's accurate. Belly RW folk are use used to flying on their bellys. They tend to have a bit of discipline where as your average freefyer has very little discipline. During most tracking dives, the object is not to see how fast you can track. It's just to see how relative you can fly during the track. There are people who are very talented at tracking dives but are average when it comes to speed or distant tracking. During a regular freefly dive, a good portion of Freeflyers, have speed on their side. When the flatten out they can be very far away in a short time just because of the transition from head down to horizontal. Belly RW folks, Are used to turning away from the center of the formation and blasting off and getting the heck out of there. They've put much thought into the dive, and put a lot of thought into tracking away. I love it when RW folks come tracking. They have a blast and it bridges a gap. So who knows. People who practice tracking fast, will certainly be better at it. I have no answer to the poll. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #17 January 12, 2004 Hey Tim. If you come to Crosskeys, we should have a race. Me on my back and you on your belly. You in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #18 January 12, 2004 OooKaAAaaayyy... I'd love to. I don't have plans to be in Crosskeys any time soon though. Do you have any plans to be in California? I'll stand by my original post. My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjuggler 0 #19 January 12, 2004 Quote you put this in a freeflying forum, what did expect the answer to be? I didn't know what the answer would be, that's why I asked the question. Quote Obviously, Skyjuggler is biased as he is a FF, and wants to hear that all FFs are better at tracking than the belly flyers. Yes I am biased to freefly , however I still thought it was an interesting question. The results are irrelevant, I think it's good to see the general feeling, and see what people have to say, so that's why I asked. Sharing of ideas and all. As I write the poll is 40% belly flyers 60% freeflyers, so thanks for the experiences shared. Also it shows how honest and unbiased freeflyers are!!!! My original question was prompted by the other thread in the forum regarding tracking. As I did not want to hijack it I started another thread. I wasn't looking for a name of the best tracker, just peoples opinions and thoughts on the topic. It's been cool to hear all the answers. I find the thoughts on tracking and what is involved great, there appears to be a good diverse range of jumps and what people want from them! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wzettler 0 #20 January 12, 2004 IMO I think that people who practice the most are going to be the best. I have seen poor and great trackers in both diciplines. And just to be a smart-ass (since its not a category listed) but with a serious answer, I think the best trackers are the BASE jumpers who jump the big walls in Norway and around the world. Some of those guys track like they are wearing wing suits, without the suits (due to pantz or not). Thats my .02... edited to add: I did vote for FFs though if you want to know... I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 January 12, 2004 Juggler - Putting people into the either/or catagory? What about those who do both? They likely have the best feel for what the air can do for them. Worst discipline for learning tracking - CrW. I voted RW based on exerience watching both types. But I'd rather vote for body type and experience rather than 'primary' discipline. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #22 January 12, 2004 i voted belly fliers. also try to created the same poll in RW forum and see what results will be ... stan -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danwayland 0 #23 January 12, 2004 QuoteNo way. There are some extremely good backtrackers but it's definately not as efficient as a good belly to earth tracker. I dunno about that. I think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. Cool tracking dive photo I recently took - photo is actually a bit counter-prodcutive to my point because the belly guys are clearly having to arch pretty hard, but hey, it looks cool: http://danwayland.com/cgi-bin/i/030907/tracking2.jpg -- Dan Wayland http://www.danwayland.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #24 January 12, 2004 QuoteI think that if by efficient, you mean slow fall rate and a fast horizontal speed, I say the backtrack might actually have more potential than the belly track. I mean horizontal speed. I don't care about verticle speed to much. When I track fast horizontally, it actually feels like my verticle speed is higher. I've never checked but I can watch the ground go by and can feel it when it kicks in. There are plenty of good back trackers, I feel that I'm pretty good at it myself. I still tend to think the front of the body is more suited for winning the annual tracking contest. Edit: Nice Picture!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjuggler 0 #25 January 12, 2004 I finally thought about getting some pictures to visually describe the type of tracking I refer to for freeflyers, which I probably so poorly described earlier, and explain my thoughts a little. As I mentioned previously my original question was intended to find out other's experiences regarding tracking. Here are some of mine. I think most will reckonise tracking as per danwayland's photo, belly flyers arching and staying behind the rabbit. Also, some have mentioned back tracking might be more efficient than tracking on your belly, I personally think the belly has so much more potential. The other thread regarding tracking in the freefly forum also touches on some good points, but I have finally found some pictures that will show some of the tracking and thinking about. The 2 pictures are nicked from PD's webpage, and are of Ippo, Lele and Alex from Aria. They have spent alot of time tracking together working on their proximity and their trajectories. They are very fast and track like demons but all around the sky. The final photo is from the XFest and has some very tastey flyers. Along with some of freeflyers, this is why I think freeflyers are better trackers. They actively train at the discipline and take alot of time and jumps to focus on them. If it was a straight track race for horizontal distance, I think those who train at it will become better, and from my experience the freeflyers I know train at it and consequently are pretty good. The picture of Ippo and Alex shows use of their torsos, knees and legs. No arches are present. By using their knee's to loose alitutde, they can accelerate better and not loose their speed when they start to stretch out. They are also de arched to catch more air and their torso's are angled down a little, producing more drive. Bascially they are showing very efficient tracking positions which are very fast forward. I hope they don't mind me using the photos for the purpose of this explanation. Some jumpers I know believe that tracking jumps should be fast and are natural selection. These are still group of flocking jumps, just at a fast speed. If you can't keep up then you have to get better. Also the nature of the tracking jumps are different. By being on head level rather than behind the rabbit, angles can be experimented with and the horizontal speeds are better. By angles I mean off the horizontal towards 45 degrees. The photo from the Xfest shows the head level and slight angle. And before I get jumped on it is probably at the end of a very flat atmonauti jump!! (Which is the same as tracking but in an angle, ideally 45 degrees) My experience and still my belief is that freeflyers exhibit the best tracking skills, not because they are born any different but because they train at it. Hopefully these photos might summarise some of my thoughts!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
