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rhys

Z-Brace technology/R&D/Sponsorship stuff (was: Something new from PD)

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When the Velo came out (and before that the FX), and when the VX came out they were all canopies that were geared for the "top of the top".

And every shmuck bought one. (including me)



I was hoping this would be the illusive z brace technology that was being rumored a year or two ago, because then the Deadalus JSX may be released. but it seem PD still a little behind the eight ball!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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It's eaiser to just sponsor all the top pilots and shelve the R&D for the next gen canopy.

Thats why I'm not a PD Pilot, and a hardcore JVX advocate


i dont really wanna start a debate in this topic, i think we might have similar thoughts on this but... What "next gen" features did JVX bring? JVX was to VX what Comp Velo is to Velo. Minor mods and changes to the established and proven wing design, resulting in better performance. Nothing "next gen" for either wing, IMO. A nice step up? for sure. Next generation? i dont think so. For either JVX or Comp Velo.


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I copy in full

But you have a velo in your profile! :))

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let's wait for the JFX and see what happens in speed other than distance


So, here is a hypothetical situation. That new canopy finally comes out, JSX or JFX or what have you. Due to z-bracing and all the extra parts, the cost of it will probably be no less than $3000, or even more. No demos. No discounts. takes 6 months to make it. Takes another year and lets say someone sets the new distance or speed record on it. I rush out to get this wonderful canopy, jump it... and what a disappointment, I still swoop the same 250 feet as I did on my JVX. Where is the famed performance?! Where is the 600+ feet?!! Where is the 2+ second world record?!! I just bought the best and the most expensive wing in the world, shouldnt i be the new champion??! Oh, wait... I dont even compete... (well, i do, not sure if you do) Hey well at least i look cool with my new canopy, it's worth the 3+ grand. Isn't it? Lets hope the sail material doesn't fall apart on me after 200 jumps, so i can continue to look cool and not jump someone's beat up old canopy waiting 4 months for a replacement.

Also, are you waiting for someone else to set these new records? Or are you planning to set them yourself? If you want to be the next Michael Phelps of swooping, here is what I would do. Instead of spending 3+ grand on a new wing, i'd buy a used one for $1500 (actually skip this since i already have a good canopy), invest 3-400 in a nice one-on-one or one-on-two canopy camp with PD Factory team, another 1000 in practice jumps and go have a 100 dollar dinner with drinks to toast my new skills :)

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*** If you want to be the next Michael Phelps of swooping, here is what I would do. Instead of spending 3+ grand on a new wing, i'd buy a used one for $1500 (actually skip this since i
already have a good canopy), invest 3-400 in a nice one-on-one or one-on-two canopy camp with PD Factory team, another 1000 in practice jumps and go have a 100 dollar dinner with drinks to toast my new skills :)


This is some of the best advise I have seen posted here, EVER! Words for everyone to consider....
Where do you really get the most bang for your buck? Are we really getting a 100% out of what
we have and do already? ...of course, that doesn"t mean I still won"t buy a Comp Velo next month,
it just means I will be in debt for training and a new canopy.
-See you next Sat, I am bringing the $2.00s

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***In Reply To

If you want to be the next Michael Phelps of swooping, here is what I would do. Instead of spending 3+ grand on a new wing, i'd buy a used one for $1500 (actually skip this since i
already have a good canopy), invest 3-400 in a nice one-on-one or one-on-two canopy camp with PD Factory team, another 1000 in practice jumps and go have a 100 dollar dinner with drinks to toast my new skills :)



This is some of the best advise I have seen posted here, EVER! Words for everyone to consider....
Where do you really get the most bang for your buck? Are we really getting a 100% out of what
we have and do already? ...of course, that doesn"t mean I still won"t buy a Comp Velo next month,
it just means I will be in debt for training and a new canopy.
-See you next Sat, I am bringing the $2.00s

it the same idea we're telling newbies in the sport. Don't buy expensive fancy rig to begin with. buy a decent used one and spend the rest on jump tickets. Good and fancy gear don't make you good. jumping does! =)

I'm a little curious though. How long will it take for PD to change their RDS design to allow for terminal deployment. Money talks in this business and I find it hard to believe that they will get 10years of R&D back from those few dedicated CP participants. I see that many need to rigs..one for their work canopy and one for their Comp Velo. That's a lot for many skidvers, and might affect sales on the Comp Velo.

Off course you'll allways have those who endure a hard opening and ruin their RDS+lines on a comp velo just to have the hot stuff for everyday skydiving.
"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

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Off course you'll allways have those who endure a hard opening and ruin their RDS+lines on a comp velo just to have the hot stuff for everyday skydiving.



Forgive my ignorance, but do all RDS have to be deployed at sub-terminal speeds? Or does this damage only apply to PD's RDS and HMA300 combo?

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What "next gen" features did JVX bring? JVX was to VX what Comp Velo is to Velo.



The JVX bought many options never available before, apart from the nice on heading (better than crossfire) openings there were several construction innovations avalable to everybody, thinner profile, no stabalisers, stock HMA lines, better trim, sail cloth options... the JVX and the VX are very different canopies. they are both 9 cell Xbraces but quite different. Otherwise why would anyone bother with a J mod (JVX lineset) on the VX.

What PD have just done by releasing the comp velo is matching what NZaerosports have been doing the whole time, giving an even playing field for all not just the sponsored pilots.

The JSX will be like nothing we have seen before. dividing each cell into more parts....

The velo is still a 7 cell, a good canopy, but no JVX.
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That new canopy finally comes out, JSX or JFX or what have you. Due to z-bracing and all the extra parts, the cost of it will probably be no less than $3000, or even more. No demos. No discounts. takes 6 months to make it. Takes another year and lets say someone sets the new distance or speed record on it.



formula 1 racing cars are way out of most peoples budget but they sell normal cars through being the best... the fastest...

It is quite remarkable that the JVX has so many records etc as they have only been avalilable for a few years and a very small proportion of people use them compared to Velo's.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Well you are starting a debate, or I did anyway. ;) My point is this.

The JVX that Nick Batsch jumps...........Mine is the same damn thing. Not a stock JVX that they sell to non sposnsored teams, the same wing.

Yeah Yeah they've tweaked the line trim since I got mine but its still available to EVERYONE......And I can buy it just like anyone else can.

So short of raw talent.............nothing is stopping me from competing and having the same shot at winning as Nick. Except that I lack the talent........that part still applies.

Hypo thetical answer to your question............
Icarus and Daedalus have always been the inovators in canopy design ever since they broke into the market. They don't have as much cash as PD so no they don't have a Demo program and they cant afford to buy up all the top pilots with sponsorships.

In my opinion what PD does is approaches any top pilot beating their boys in competition and offers them a deal they cant refuse and gets them jumping a PD. In essence they Buy them.......

You can buy a used and worn out JVX or VX just as easily as you can buy a $1000 Velo that's worn out. And I'm not sure the last time you bought a new Velo...........But My Friend they are every bit as expensive as a new JVX.

So No I don't get your point at all.............

And No I don't compete in the CPC or the PST, or whatever its called now. I'm just a humble Beer Line Swooper who enjoys smoking most of the Velo Pilots on my DZ............

I'm sure if I did compete and started winning, that PD would try to buy me out too...........But I'd stick with my weapon of choice.........my JVX. But I guess I'm just stupid, liking the best.

And for what its worth...........alot of the Velo guys who have jumped my JVX.......Wish they owned one too........Not my words.....Theirs.

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You have just proven Frost right.

"Your lack of talent" you said it your self.

So I doesn't matter if your flying the XB the PD guys have or a JFX or what ever,with no talent your just going to be the guy on the drop zone with an expensive canopy.

No offense bro.

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In my opinion what PD does is approaches any top pilot beating their boys in competition and offers them a deal they cant refuse and gets them jumping a PD. In essence they Buy them.......



Then your opinion is based on incorrect assumptions.

Sponsorship, in my experience, is sought out by jumpers TO manufacturers - not the other way around.

This thread is starting to drift anyway - lets try keep it on track. If people would like to discuss the topics such as sponsorship raised in this thread, I suggest simply starting a new one so that there's a bit of cohesiveness to the responses.

Keep it clean people - we can all play in the same sandbox - there don't have to be lines drawn in the sand.

:)
Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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The JVX bought many options never available before, apart from the nice on heading (better than crossfire) openings there were several construction options avalable to everybody.

JVX brought very little truly "new", just better options and some cool mods. But options and upgrades are NOT "next generation design". By default. Same is true for the Comp Velo though, to be fair.

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the JVX and the VX are very different canopies. they are both 9 cell Xbraces but quite different. Otherwise why would anyone bother with a J mod (JVX lineset) on the VX

Bro, i have ~1500 jumps on VX's and ~600 on JVXs. I am not a canopy designer, but i can tell you based on my experience that they are not. As a wing, JVX is very similar, if not the same as VX. Unless someone actually took apart these wings and laid out the panels on top of one another or at least measured the chord/span to prove that statement wrong. and JVX line trim on VX makes no changes to the wing itself. It's just a mod.


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The velo is still a 7 cell, a good canopy, but no JVX.

That is FUNNY! can you explain to me how you came to that conclusion? And what flight characteristic you feel make Velo just "OK" and "no JVX"?



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It is quite remarkable that the JVX has so many records etc as they have only been avalilable for a few years and a very small proportion of people use them compared to Velo's.


please. the only person setting records on JVX is Nick Batch. Oddly, though, he did apply for the PD team recently... hmm?

Also, there were nine competitors under JVXs at the last USPA Nats, most with at least a full season of jumps under their canopies. Only two made it in the top 10. How come the other 7 were not there? They had the best wing on the market!





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So short of raw talent.............nothing is stopping me from competing and having the same shot at winning as Nick. Except that I lack the talent

YOU dont compete because YOU dont compete. Period. Dont blame it on the lack of talent. Tell me you dont have the cash, tell me you're busy with something else, tell me anything, but dont tell me you are not trying cause you lack talent. There are may be 5 talented individuals in the world in this game and the rest of us are just bums that like to compete and have a good time and do reasonably well. Or are you referring to PD Team and the rest of the people that consistently place in the top 20 in the world? Dude, they are very experienced pilots with many thousand skydives. Jay has talent? May be, sure. But he also has 8 thousand skydives and 100 comps under his belt. But less then ten years ago he was chowing under a Jedei on the Ranch pond. Greg Windmiller (sorry buddy) was swooping 10 foot gates and not always hitting them less than two years ago. Take the top 15 of the last World meet and i bet you 10 bucks nearly all of them have more than 5 thousand skydives, some 3 times as many. The only thing that stops you or me from being as good as those top guys is PRACTICE. That's it. And my be a little bit of luck, since anyone can have a bad or good comp.


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I'm sure if I did compete and started winning, that PD would try to buy me out too

Why dont you try? Invest some time and money and try? and then, when PD comes to you with this wonder offer... refuse it and laugh, claiming that your success is due to the fact that you fly the best wing on the market, the JVX! :)

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In my opinion what PD does is approaches any top pilot beating their boys in competition and offers them a deal they cant refuse and gets them jumping a PD

Icarus and Daedalus have always been the inovators in canopy design ever since they broke into the market. They don't have as much cash as PD so no they don't have a Demo program and they cant afford to buy up all the top pilots with sponsorships



Could you give me a couple of examples of winning competitive pilots that you speak of?

What do you think PD offers them that they cant refuse? $100K per year and free jumps for the rest of their life? LOL. You may wanna do some research on the subject of sponsorships.

Well, lets say PD do approach top pilots. And why not? PD are a business, a well ran, well established business. And their business is selling canopies. If getting another good pilot helps them sell more canopies, thats a good business decision. Icarus are in the same business. If Icarus wanted to make more money and sell more canopies, they could employ the same policy as PD. Sponsor best pilots with free or heavily discounted wings and service.


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So No I don't get your point at all

I have a feeling you dont get my point cause you dont want to get my point. My point wasnt about ethics, sponsorships, formula racing sales techniques and all that. I was saying that there is NOTHING next gen about JVX, just like there is NOTHING next gen about comp velo. They are just upgrades.

P.S. sorry Ian i should have started a new thread...

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There are several Design changes to the JVX, that at the time of its realease were brand new.

Call them mods, call them what you want, but the canopy was built differently from the ground up. and Icarus and Daedelus did them first and PD followed suit.

I don't design canopies so excuse the terminology, but I'll list what I know. It annoys me when folks talk abbove peoples heads on here anyway.

1.) Removed Stabalizers.
2.) Rolled the Nose and stiched the top skin to the panels to the bottom skin. Many different reinforcement points on the nose.
3.) Its a Thinner Wing - Top Skin to Bottom Skin.
4.) First to release Hybrid Sail Cloth.
5.) First to release Full Sail Cloth. (Yes I know about the problems with the material).
6.) New Slider Sizing, to give it that great opening. They had to work on that alot.

No I'll never be as good as the top pilots............I don't jump enough to be, plus I focus more on Freeflying. But I perform high performace landings on every jump. I'm not willing to shell out nearly the same price to do a low pass and work on only swooping.

Because I don't compete doesnt mean I can't fly the hell out of my wing, or that I don't know what I'm taking about. I have learned from some very good pilots who were origninals on the PST, names I doubt you'd recognize anymore. So yes I know how to fly my canopy.

I'm not going to name names but some former Icarus Team Extreme, and Daedalus Extreme members were approached by PD and did cross sides. PD has deep pockets. And No I don't think they were offered $100K per year. I'm not an idiot. Free Competition Velocities is enough for some to switch over.

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I'm keeping it clean...........I just get tired of hearing PD is the only way to go.

You have anyone start talking about other Wings or releases, like this post, and it's called advertising and the post is locked.

But PD's can be advertised on DZ.com.

But I'll respect that this topic has strayed and end it here.

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There are several Design changes to the JVX, that at the time of its realease were brand new.

Call them mods, call them what you want, but the canopy was built differently from the ground up. and Icarus and Daedelus did them first and PD followed suit.

1.) Removed Stabalizers.
2.) Rolled the Nose and stiched the top skin to the panels to the bottom skin. Many different reinforcement points on the nose.
3.) Its a Thinner Wing - Top Skin to Bottom Skin.
4.) First to release Hybrid Sail Cloth.
5.) First to release Full Sail Cloth. (Yes I know about the problems with the material).
6.) New Slider Sizing, to give it that great opening. They had to work on that alot.

Oh yeah these are DEFINITELY next generation innovations in canopy design. Dont forget the label on the bottom skin, that one was the biggest next gen wing changing design innovation.

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I'm not willing to shell out nearly the same price to do a low pass and work on only swooping.

I used to make the same mistake thinking that working on flying your canopy involves lots of low hop and pops. What a mistake. Making full altitude hop and pops and practicing each move in the chain of moves that make up your turn, flying in close proximity using various inputs - that's the way to learn to fly your canopy. Not beer line swooping.

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I'm not going to name names but some former Icarus Team Extreme, and Daedalus Extreme members were approached by PD and did cross sides.

Cross sides?? you're serious? These are PROFESSIONAL skydivers. They earn their living in skydiving. They were offered a job. They accepted it. If you worked for Microsoft and got laid off, but later got an offer from Apple would you not take it?

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You have anyone start talking about other Wings or releases, like this post, and it's called advertising and the post is locked

Really? I see a ton of canopy reviews and feed back on this forum, still open and not locked. XF15, Sensei, Xaos, JVX... And when i did call out JT's multi posts on Italy Expedition, it was promptly locked. Can you give an example of what you refer to?

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Because I don't compete doesnt mean I can't fly the hell out of my wing, or that I don't know what I'm taking about. I have learned from some very good pilots who were origninals on the PST, names I doubt you'd recognize anymore. So yes I know how to fly my canopy.

I used to think that too. No offense to the original PST pilots and swoop pioneers, the game and techniques have changed dramatically. Much more than the JVX design. And those who started and still compete did change and evolve their techniques.

I have been flying Icarus stuff pretty much since the first days of my skydiving. I've owned 4 different JVXs, have been competing under JVXs for two years, and before that i competed on VXs. I have 20 comps under my belt in 3+ years. I fly a JVX now, it is by far my favorite canopy and i plan to fly it as long as i can. But i also try to keep my mind open, try different wings when i have a chance. If the time comes when i am not happy with my current canopy anymore, and a new better wing comes along at a good deal that i like - i will get it. With all that, i still dont know fully what the deal is and how to fly my wing to its max. But you say you do, so i must concede defeat. You win. PD sucks, Icarus rulez and pwnz all.

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Hi Mike! I hope you are doing well.

When I had my JVX I laid it out on top of a VX of the same size. They were pretty much the same. I did not check the measurements from teh bottom skin to the top skin (wing thickness). Both the VX and JVX were sizably bigger than a simular placarded velo. I am sure both manufacturers measure differently.

Sq footage is a shitty value for measuring performance and it really doesn't even matter now a days. Once you could have a pretty good estimate of pack volume with sq footage but not now with sail and the thin cloth that PD uses on optimums.

Yall be nice out there and dont shit in the sandbox. We wouldn't want to have Ian come out with his little scoop and have to clean up hahahaha

Grant

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Off course you'll allways have those who endure a hard opening and ruin their RDS+lines on a comp velo just to have the hot stuff for everyday skydiving.



Forgive my ignorance, but do all RDS have to be deployed at sub-terminal speeds? Or does this damage only apply to PD's RDS and HMA300 combo?



I take my RDS to full terminal on almost every single skydive as well. Only a poorly designed RDS will affect your openings in a negative manner.

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