PhreeZone 15 #1 January 4, 2003 Would a senior rigger be allowed to install a Codura BOC on a rig the manufactor does not offer that option on? Ie would it take to be allowed to install a Codura BOC on a Javelin? Manufactor approval? Waiver? Or its alredy allowed?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #2 January 4, 2003 Im not a rigger but I believe as long as you dont alter the reserve system the rest is fair game. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #3 January 5, 2003 You believe wrong.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #4 January 5, 2003 QuoteYou believe wrong.... Can you offer more information on this comment, and perhaps a source?Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SickMonkey 0 #5 January 5, 2003 You can make modifications to the rig as long as it does not involve the reserve container. But someone already said that.....ha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #6 January 5, 2003 Edit: I was wrong, feel free to disregard this post. See the link in my next post. I think it would be master rigger territory. My interpretation is based on Poynter's Parachute Manual, Vol II., section 2.0. Poynter states: Quote...the senior rigger may "MAINTAIN" parachutes by making MINOR repairs... The master rigger may "ALTER" parachutes and make MAJOR repairs. Major repairs are considered to be any repairs which may affect the airworthiness of the parachute: harness stitching, line replacements, panel replacements, and so on. The key words, then, are "alter" and "maintain", and they should be the guide whenever there is a question. According to FAA regulations, a non-rigger may build a main canopy from a kit but if he or she has to have major repairs done to the canopy, a master rigger has to be found. This indicates to me that any alteration must be performed by a master rigger, regardless of whether the component is TSOed. This position was backed up by another thread in this forum, which I can't seem to find right now. Of course, I see it interpreted the other way in real life. I had a senior rigger alter my main deployment bag, which would seem to be a no-no by the letter of the law. That said, I'm only a rigger wannabe, so don't stake your life on this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #7 January 5, 2003 A lot of stuff in Poynter's is extremely outdated. I bet Hooknswoop could set us straight on this.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #8 January 5, 2003 D'oh. I found the thread that I mentioned in my earlier post here. I spelled hooknswoop wrong when I was searching. Looks like I remembered wrong. Sorry folks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #9 January 5, 2003 I'll research this and see what I can find. The FAR's and FAA documents are very muddled. (Is that a word?) Replacing a BOC with a BOC not offered as an option n a container isn't the same as putting a pocket on the slider of a main canopy. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #10 January 5, 2003 Why would u want to do this? Is this now considered to be safer?http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #11 January 5, 2003 Its for maintenance reasons, You have to change spandex every few hundred jumps, especially if your into the funky stuff. I demoed a rig with a cordura Boc and was pretty impressed, and have now ordered the cordura BOC on my new rig. Some like it, some dont. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #12 January 5, 2003 QuoteI'll research this and see what I can find. The FAR's and FAA documents are very muddled. We had a thread a while back about who can alter a main canopy and I stated only a Master Rigger could and you asked me where it said that in the FARs, so I responded with the obsolete information contained in PPM and an obsolete reference in the FAA Field Inspectors' Handbook. You were able to find the current and accurate information in the FAA website and posted the link to it, but I can't find it now and don't have time to keep looking. I can't recall if it would apply in this case or not, my memory seems to be that what you referenced was specific to the main canopy. At any rate, it was good information and worthy of reposting if you can find it.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #13 January 5, 2003 Here is the portion of FAR part 65 that applies. The only difference between mains and reserves is that for mains you don't have to keep records. have the specified facilities, seal it, etc. See the last section below. Now because records aren't required, it would be hard to prove who did what to a main, but if an FAA inspector saw you doing something not allowed you could be busted. The answer to the root question is no. It would be an alteration, require a Master, field approval by the FAA or approval by the manufacturer. But a lot of rigger woulds I'd be very carefull adding a cordura BOC. Most of these are designed as an integral part of the rig. With out the elastisity of cordura you have little room for error. Look into SPANDURA instead. Soon to be use for all Relative workshop BOC's (per recent post from Bill Booth.) Sec. 65.125 Certificates: Privileges (a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may- (1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. (b) A certificated master parachute rigger may- (1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. (c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with Secs. 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumpingI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
garywainwright 0 #14 January 5, 2003 I appreciate that but isn't the idea of using spandex that if you have a prem pack opening it is easier to get the pilot chute out thereby avoiding a horseshoe?http://www.garywainwright.co.uk Instagram gary_wainwright_uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmcvey 0 #15 January 5, 2003 Im no rigger but the "mouth" of the BOC was elasticated so if you pack the PC appropriately then it should behave the same as a Spandex one ie you pull it, it comes out. When i had the rig with cordura i tried this (pulled on the bridle) and it popped out just fine. If you search "spandex Vs Cordura" theres plenty of healthy debate about the pro's and con's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 January 6, 2003 Alan- You have my respect. The thread is: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=249465 I don't think it applies to containers either. "Any change to the configuration, method of operation, or method of packing the main parachute, up to and including the main canopy attachment links or the male end of the quick release fittings, is a main pack alteration. Any main pack alteration that affects the strength or operation of the auxiliary parachute, including the harness, must be regarded as an alteration of the auxiliary parachute and handled accordingly." I found this. Kinda vague, but it could be interpreted that as long as it doesn't affect the harness or the strength or how the reserve works, no approval is needed and it isn't an alteration to the "approved" harness container or reserve. I'm not sure on this one. What do you think, Alan? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #17 January 6, 2003 I tend to think that 65.111 applies, and that a Senior or Master Rigger or even the person who will jump the rig next can add or replace a BOC pouch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 January 6, 2003 QuoteI tend to think that 65.111 applies, and that a Senior or Master Rigger or even the person who will jump the rig next can add or replace a BOC pouch. I'm not sure if a non-rigger can replace a pouch, even if they can (not arguing if they can or not) I woouldn't recommend it. The issue is who can replace a spandex pouch with a cordura pouch. Tough question. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #19 January 6, 2003 The FAA defines a major repair (or alteration) as something - that if done improperly - could interferr with the inflation or flying characteristics of the parachute. An improperly installed BOC can interfer with inflation, ergo, it requires a Master Rigger. Which is not to say that I have seen plenty of BOCS neatly installed by FAA Senior Riggers. On the other hand, I have seen some "marginally airworthy" homemade BOCS! I do not trust the average skydiver to replace his own BOC. If you are just sewing on a pre-made BOC - from say Para-Gear - it is not a big deal. However, retrofitting a Cordura BOC to a rig that never had a BOC before requires special patterns and knowledge, knowledge that is not found in most lofts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #20 January 6, 2003 Ok... more specifically what I'd like to do is attach a Codura BOC, probally one from Sunrise, to my Javelin to replace the Spandex one thats on it now. Master rigger terrotory? Or does this require waiver and master rigger? Any way a senior rigger could do this? Second option, the Spandura, since its not an original option either are we looking at the same level of rigger needed to replace it? And is it only master riggers that can replace BOC's and ROL's?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 January 6, 2003 QuoteThe FAA defines a major repair (or alteration) as something - that if done improperly - could interferr with the inflation or flying characteristics of the parachute. I think they define it as something that can interfer with the "Approved" portion of the parachute. Changing the location of the main closing loop isn't considered an alteration because it doesn't affect the "strength or operation" of the TSO'd components. I recently ran across an old Vector II with the main closing loop tounge similar to old Javelins, with the grommet facing the D-bag. I called RWS and they said to sew a piece of elastic under the bottom flap grommet and cut off the tongue. I agrree that it shouldn't be taken lightly, converting a spandex BOC to a Cordura BOC. I would contact the manufacturer and see if they were willingly to convert it. If not, and I reallly wanted the conversion, I would take the rig to a Master Rigger with a really good loft and have them do it. The conversion isn't a simple process and has to be done correctly. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #22 January 7, 2003 Quote The FAA defines a major repair (or alteration) as something - that if done improperly - could interferr with the inflation or flying characteristics of the parachute. Well, if you take that to its logical (illogical?) conclusion, only a Master Rigger can pack a main. I don't think even the FAA has thought of that (yet). Just havin' fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #23 January 7, 2003 Packing is defined as a skill separate from repair and alterations in the FAR's. Which is also why the FAR's explain who may pack which parachutes. Your conclusion is more absurd than logical... Just havin' fun too.Ken "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #24 January 7, 2003 Quote Alan- You have my respect. Thank you, I sincerely appreciate that. You better be careful with going public with that, though, it could put you on thin ice. Quote I found this. Kinda vague, but it could be interpreted that as long as it doesn't affect the harness or the strength or how the reserve works, no approval is needed and it isn't an alteration to the "approved" harness container or reserve. I'm not sure on this one. What do you think, Alan? I think you will find that even FAA reprentatives will give inconsistent "interpretations". I know that in the past, cordura pouches were attributed to having contributed to horse shoe malfunctions, which could be interpreted as interferring with the operation of the approved system (inhibiting or preventing full deployment of the reserve). As councilman24 stated, they do have to be installed properly and may have tighter tolerances. If a Sr. Rigger does the work and a horse shoe mal ensues witha fatality, then I would guess that the FAA official doing the investigation would use a pretty strict interpretation, even if the work was deemed to be within mfgr specs. I've done work where I e-mail the mfgr with my order for the part(s). I include a request for the instructions and that request includes my credentials and I specifically ask if I am qualified to do the work. I print and keep the reply.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 January 7, 2003 Quote I think you will find that even FAA reprentatives will give inconsistent "interpretations". I know that in the past, cordura pouches were attributed to having contributed to horse shoe malfunctions, which could be interpreted as interferring with the operation of the approved system (inhibiting or preventing full deployment of the reserve). As councilman24 stated, they do have to be installed properly and may have tighter tolerances. If a Sr. Rigger does the work and a horse shoe mal ensues witha fatality, then I would guess that the FAA official doing the investigation would use a pretty strict interpretation, even if the work was deemed to be within mfgr specs. I've done work where I e-mail the mfgr with my order for the part(s). I include a request for the instructions and that request includes my credentials and I specifically ask if I am qualified to do the work. I print and keep the reply. If the rigger that did the work doesn't make a note of it on the reserve card, then how ould the FAA find out? I bring this up not as a way of doing illegal rigging work and how to get away with it but because I recently had to send a Javelin back to Sun Path. It was an old one, but in terrific shape. It was brought to me for a re-pack, but I noticed that the main closing loop toungue grommet was facing the D-bag and had a plastic stiffener in it, so that the SB couldn't be applied. Sun Path replaced the toungue, but made no notes on the reserve card that I was careful to include with the rig or on the container's data label. I expected them to make a notation on the card and the container's label indicating the work performed. Great advice on keeping the authorizations from the manufacturers. I have done that in the past too. CYA . Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
