270 degree approaches

[ccowden 0]

Just for the sake of comparison and gathering of info-

For those of you using 270 degree, front riser approaches: How high do you start your turn and what are your inputs?

I have been using a couple different techniques from various altitudes and wanted to get some feedback as to what others are doing. For example, do you start your turn with a hard front riser input and finish with a carve or do you carve in and finish with a hard or do you use one smooth front riser throughout? Just curious.

Thanks!

[base698 1]

I start from just about 700 ft usually. Optimally its very slow starting with possible faster portions as it progresses depending on my altitude. I don't do very much with harness until the bottom end to help line up with the gates and I do major corrections with rears.

I imagine I could start it higher but most of the time I am pulling on the riser as hard as I can by the bottom.

[garyharbird 0]

For a week I used a friends neptune, I jump a velocity 84 loaded @ 2.3, I found myself doing 270s anywhere between 650 and 850 depending on density altitude.
I usually do a slow carving 270 it builds more speed and i find it more accurate for hitting a swooping lane or pond.

Blue skies

Gary Harbird

[exwhuffo 0]

I like to start at 800 ft with a very small amount of front riser and transfer to harness right away.
always ready to speed up or slow the turn with risers.
i find if i whip it at the end i have to come out of the dive sooner. with the harness i can get a lot closer to the ground before coming out of the dive.

[base698 1]

Do you use the harness to get out of the dive? I'm interested in trying that.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Chris,

According to my neptune my range on the 90 is anywhere from 650 - 750 feet (varies with density alt). I have had the most success using a slightly more aggressive front riser turn to start the dive and then continuing on with more gentle input to complete the revolution and adjust altitude in conjunction with the harness.

For a while I tried a much shallower, longer turn but wasn't getting the distance I was looking for and the front riser pressure became horrendous. Dave Brown came up for the weekend and we spent some time together where he had me increase my dive more by applying more front riser than I was doing with the slow, long carves. Since then my swoops have been noticably longer.

Hope this helps (DVD will be sent of 21st Dec btw).

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[trigger 0]

Progressive carving turn,taking the canopy steeper from +/- 600' at sea level.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[ccowden 0]

Thanks for all the info guys! Sounds like I am doing what the general concensus here is, but I think I will start a bit higher. I was starting down around 500-600ft and was really happy with the distance on the swoops, but sometimes I get too heavy into the rear risers and lose some distance.

Damn, this Velocity is FUN!!!!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Chris,

Once thing i didn't mention was that Dave Brown had me use both front risers throughout the entire approach (ie start pulling both down then ease one up a little to initiate the turn - it made me have to start higher, but I come in much faster now too), not sure if you're doing this but figured I'd throw it out there.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I set up in deep brakes at 750 feet (+/-) then throw hard right harness as I dive down to the right in front risers adjusting with both harness and risers for accuracy.

[AggieDave 6]

Although I've seen it done, I haven't really played with setting up in brakes then letting the canopy surge while I toss out some front riser action. Generally is the recovery arc is a bit longer when you do that or does it stay about the same?


As for my normal approaches, I use a 270, carving the first 90deg then usually becoming more aggressive through the last 180deg. On my old Heatwave about 400-450' was about right, On the Xfire2 I was jumping it was around 550'. On the Stilleto I'm borrowing right now...eh, around 400'.

I'm kinda guessing those altitudes, since I'm not really looking at my altitude below about 700ft, I'm looking at the ground and watching for traffic/etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am not in the same class as some of you guys (I'm not as experienced and I'm not flying a cross-braced canopy). But I have started doing 270s and I love them. On my Crossfire2 I'll initiate my turn at about 350-400 feet AGL. 350 feet seems more dialed in, but I have found myself digging it out a little on occasion at that altitude and lately have been trying to start at about 400 feet and have the canopy dive longer (and I like the idea of starting out on double fronts before transitioning to a left or a right front riser carve). Also, I like the slightly more abrupt front riser turn as opposed to the subtle carve, but my horizontal and vertical accuracy isn't as good on the abrupt turns. So I have some work cut out ahead of me to get better and to get to know my canopy better before I ever think of replacing it (I've only got about 85 jumps on my Crossfire2).

Oh I will have to modify my starting altitudes higher next summer when the density altitude kicks in here in CO.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[alan 1]

So, other than the guys with Neptunes, how do you come up with the altitude estimates you are using? I'm aware that we aren't looking at altimeters during this phase of the landing because we have to keep ours eyes open for traffic. Is everyone just that good at estimating these distances to +/- 50' from altitudes of 300' to 900' and a moving sight picture that is accelerating to more than 60 mph? I can recall someone posting in another thread that an error of 10 or 20 feet can have fatal results, even advised someone learning to swoop to never use an altimeter for learning the set up. What were we using before Neptunes?

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I start from just about 700 ft usually.

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I like to start at 800 ft with a very small amount of front riser and transfer to harness right away.

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Progressive carving turn,taking the canopy steeper from +/- 600' at sea level.

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I was starting down around 500-600ft and was really happy with the distance on the swoops,

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I set up in deep brakes at 750 feet (+/-) then throw

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On my old Heatwave about 400-450' was about right, On the Xfire2 I was jumping it was around 550'. On the Stilleto I'm borrowing right now...eh, around 400'.

I'm kinda guessing those altitudes, since I'm not really looking at my altitude below about 700ft, I'm looking at the ground and watching for traffic/etc.

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On my Crossfire2 I'll initiate my turn at about 350-400 feet AGL.

alan

[flyhi 24]

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On my Crossfire2 I'll initiate my turn at about 350-400 feet AGL.

Same with my Vengeance, I guess. See below.

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how do you come up with the altitude estimates you are using?

I like left hand patterns so I can scan my altimeter as I start the turn. Not sure what the lag is, but when it shows around 500', that works out pretty well. I figure with the lag it is around 350 - 400 or so. The big determiner for me thus far is the sight-picture at the 90 and 180. Of late, I have been high and had to adjust. But better high than low.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[cliffharris 0]

I have a Digitude and an Suunto Altimax wristwatch, I quit using analog when I got serious about swooping. Since I'm still pretty green, I like the reassurance of being able to cross reference what my eyes are telling me. I usually cruise along in half brakes towards my intended turning point (tp) keeping my eye on the altitude. I can either float or sink depending on my range to the tp and my given altitude. I like to make my 270's between 600-800feet. If I blow the approach and I'm on the high side when I get to the tp I'll know that I need to start the turn slow and be deeper in front risers to really get her to dive down. I'll also make sure I have good harness/leg strap position because I'm betting that I'll need to finish the last of that longer 270 off with a good bit of harness input as the risers are likely to be pulling out of my hands after 650 feet or so of diving/turning.
If I get to the tp and I'm at the lower side of turning envelope, say 600ish, I'll know that I'm gonna really need to hurry the turn along and be right on the rears ready for input. This is definately not the turn I want to make. It's dangerous and inefficient.
Now If I do my last altitude reference check, I'm almost to my tp and I'm already approaching 600 I'll do a braked turn away from the target and then perform a 180.
......i like writing about this stuff, it makes me think.

[AggieDave 6]

That's why I said that my altitudes were more of guesses.

I used to glance at my Alti III to see roughly where I was before I turned, but that's not even remotely accurate. Its all about the site picture.

I still find myself glancing at my alti when I'm initiating my turn, since I'm looking left and since where I generally land at my DZ I'm usually doing a left hand turn (with the alti on the left hand).

Oh, besides the Neptune, Digitude has had digital altis out for quite a while that displays to the 10's of feet (which, knowing your experience level, you've known about for quite a while).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

I used to use site picture before the neptune. I found that my landings were reasonably accurate as long as I stayed at my home dz where I knew the site picture well. I've found that the site picture method doesn't travel well and have seen plenty of good pilots (who use sight alone) dig themselves outta the corner while they're trying to get used to a new landing area.

After getting my ass whooped at the Red Bull meet (which was a blast by the way) I spent a serious amount of time chatting to the pilots about staying consistent at various venues. A lot of them wear the watch alti's which they said helps them get dialed in, in new places, faster. So I started using my regular alti, and while not accurate, it was consistent so my landings improved dramatically.

Soon after I made the switch to a neptune and have been very happy with the results. While I don't rely on it, it sure does provide a nice quick visual confirmation.

As for what I did before. Well, the same thing, only less consistently
Blue skies
Ian

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[tictoc 0]

Fo rmy 270 from 250'msl on a down wind day. I use my altimiter to start my aproch at about 13k. This will put me at my start point around 900-1k in full flight. I use harness for the first 180 than a combination of fronts and harness to finish the other 90.

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Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[alan 1]

So, it looks like the consensus so far is that it is OK for jumpers learning swooping to use an alti as a tool to help learn the sight picture and then continue to use it as confirmation. The better the alti (tool), the better the result. I was confused by the guy over in incidents/safety and training posting that one should never use an alti to learn the sight picture for setting up the entry.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=750667;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_expanded;#750667
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=752237;#752237

alan

[diablopilot 2]

No. It's not. (The consensus)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[alan 1]

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No. It's not. (The consensus)

Well then, based on what has been posted in this thread "so far", what would you say the consensus has been? Please use some quotes from this thread to support your answer, I'm curious as to what I missed.

I am aware of your opinions from the other thread.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=756776;#756776

alan

[diablopilot 2]

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con·sen·sus ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-snss)
n.
An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole: “Among political women... there is a clear consensus about the problems women candidates have traditionally faced” (Wendy Kaminer).

I do not agree, so the only way you can have a consensus, is if you make your group out of all "like minded people".

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[twnsnd 1]

I think what they were saying was that you should not rely solely on your alti to initiate a turn. Look at the ground and decide if you are high enough and then double check with your alti.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[alan 1]

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Post:
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con·sen·sus ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-snss)
n.
An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole: “Among political women... there is a clear consensus about the problems women candidates have traditionally faced” (Wendy Kaminer).

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I do not agree, so the only way you can have a consensus, is if you make your group out of all "like minded people".
Blue Skies, -jp-

It looks as if you have been a little close minded and chose the one definition that suited your purpose(and a weak interpretation of it as well). Close minded is how I would describe your position with respect to the use of an alti as a tool for learning the correct sight picture for swoop approaches.

My position was, and is, that it is OK to use the no alti approach described by billvon in another thread/forum. I also believe it is OK to use it as a tool. I do not believe either method should be excluded/discounted when giving advice about learning. I believe we each learn a little differently and should tailor or methods to our individual needs.

The majority of the people that have responded "so far" have indicated they use or have used an altimeter of some sort when setting their approach to 270 degree approach. None, so far, including myself, have indicated that they have relied soley on an alti or wish they hadn't used it.

Until a majority of the responces indicate that they didn't use an alti when learning, or don't currently use one, and/or express an opinion that they shouldn't have, I'll stand by my opinion.


3 entries found for consensus.
con·sen·sus ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-snss)
n.
An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole: “Among political women... there is a clear consensus about the problems women candidates have traditionally faced” (Wendy Kaminer). See Usage Note at redundancy.
General agreement or accord: government by consensus.


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[Latin cnsnsus; see consent, from past participle of cnsentre, to agree. See consent.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


consensus

\Con*sen"sus\, n. [L. See Consent.] Agreement; accord; consent.

That traditional consensus of society which we call public opinion. --Tylor.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


consensus

n : agreement of the majority in sentiment or belief [syn: general agreement]


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

alan

[alan 1]

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I think what they were saying was that you should not rely solely on your alti to initiate a turn. Look at the ground and decide if you are high enough and then double check with your alti.

I agree. That is pretty much the point I have been trying to get across. The alti is a tool and and it is OK to use it. I do not agree with giving out the advice that one should never use an alti when learning the correct sight picture for initiating a swoop landing as was done in a different forum/thread a while back. I think one can learn to do it safely without an alti, I just don't believe the use of a tool like an alti should be dismissed entirely.

The comments in this thread seem to support that notion.

alan