High Performace Canopies LOW JUMP NUMBERS!!!!!

[airdrew20012001 0]

I agree. The thing that most people don't realize is that the potential for very serious injury of death from the most slight mishandling of these high performance canopies is very real. I am healing from 21 seperate fractures I suffered under a crossfire 119 loaded at 1.6 to 1 that collapsed on me on a very conservative final approach, no swoop or nothing.

There is an old saying in this sport: "small canopies bite hard, cross braced take out huge chunks". I guess it is not the number but the currency, the type of landings typically done, and the like that govern wether or not the cross braced experienced is one you should try. A friend recently snapped his femer under a non-crossbraced highly eliptical that we all were telling him he should not jump. He still believes it was not user error. Hard to see how a low 180 hook could be anything but user error but it is a mentality that has been in the sport since I first started in 1994 and will endure long after these emails.

Work to inform, work to save. That is all we can do.

Drew

Drewfus McDoofus

[kallend 1,632]

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I think that airplane pilots have a huge advantage in their overall experience
and knowledge of aerodynamics compared to the average first jump
student.

That said, there are significant differences in just the muscle memory of
how the controls work.

I don't know if John has ever switched over to flying right seat in a Cessna,
but the first few times people do it, they have a tendancy to be a little
rough on their landings just because they're holding the throttle and yoke in
different hands.

All true - but the total novice has to learn that PLUS a whole lot of other stuff that the pilot already knows. IMHO a pilot has a tremendous head start.

I have no first hand experience, but I'd expect the reverse to be true also. A skydiver has experience flying and landing what is, in effect, a very inefficient glider (albeit with wierd flight controls). I can't imagine it would take long for an experienced canopy pilot to transition to a sailplane.

[skycat 0]

You know you really hit on my biggest pet peeves. I don't know how many times I've been told "you need to be hooking that canopy", yet none of them can tell me why I should be hooking it other than it is an elliptical canopy and ellipticals need to be hooked. Which is bull shit, if you can't land a canopy strait in you have no business jumping it. I watched Derek land his VX60 strait in last week with out any problems, and if he can do it with a 60 @ 3.1 you can do it with any canopy.

So basically, No I don't need to hook my canopy, I have no desire to hook my canopy and I know alot of other women who fly ellipticals who feel exactly the same way, several even post on this board such as TequilaGirl and JumperPaula. Yes I do know the difference between landing a square and landing an elliptical, and you know what, I won't go back to jumping a square. I jump an elliptical for it's flight characteristics and the landings, for me the glide/plane out created by the flare makes landings extremely easy on my knees. Now it will bite you in the ass if you don't know how to flare it/fly it on landings, miss time the flare and you are either on your ass or sliding across the ground on your face. (not including hook turns in that statement cause they are a different animal.) Personally I have had canopy coaching and played around at CREW with Derek, if I wanted to learn how to hook turn I have a great canopy coach, but I have no desire to learn, I know what my canopy can do and I respect it, I enjoy flying it and landing it, but it is a tool to get me to the ground in one piece without messing up my knee.

BTW....You can also fly an elliptical at light wingloadings, I was on my 116 crossfire @ 1.1:1, TG was on her stiletto 120 @ 1.2:1, the S&TA at the DZ I learned at was on a stiletto 120 @ 1.1:1, one of the girls I was with this weekend at LP demoed and bought a samari 105 from Big Air Sportz and is loading it @ 1.2:1. I hurt my knee (see I have a bad knee) hiking Longs Peak 2 weeks ago and talked to Brian Germain about demoing a samari 120 which I would load at about 1:1 for a few jumps to test my knee out, he said there is no problem jumping elliptical at light loadings, just to avoid the ones with closed off noses like X-brased and crossfires cause they could have trouble opening and with preasurization.

Fly it like you stole it!

[diver123 0]

somebody's tooting their own horn...

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[flyhi 24]

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yet none of them can tell me why I should be hooking it other than it is an elliptical canopy and ellipticals need to be hooked. Which is bull shit, if you can't land a canopy strait in you have no business jumping it.

I agree you can land any canopy straight in and do it successfully. I am not saying you should hook your canopy but I can tell you why people do hook them. And I would like to mention this is what I picked up talking to John LeBlanc. Please remember this has been run through the flyhi filter, so it might not be 100% what JB said, but it has kept me alive thus far.

When you hook or aggressively riser turn a canopy, the pilot tends to be behind the canopy as it goes through the turn. Then, as the canopy starts to plane out, the piilot's momentum carries him forward in front of the canopy and forward of its center of lift. Here defining the center of lift as the point where a single resultant lift vector would replace the infinite number of lift vectors actually in effect. Once the pilot is forward of this point, the canopies angle of attack is increased as the lift vector goes from slightly forward in orientation (which is why we get forward drive) through vertical to having a slight aft orientation (rectifying it in an X-Y plane it would go from a positive X component to a negative X component). Once the pilot is in this forward position, His/her job is to stay there. To do this, toggle input is used as well as body position.

When we hook it too high, our momentum carries us forward, but then we either swing back under the canopy negating the benefit of the hook, or we use all of our toggle range to stay there and end up too high above the ground out of lift, toggle input, and ideas all at the same time.

We do not have to do this hook to get in the forward position. A brisk (as defined by your parachutes aerodynamic properties) initial toggle input will swing the pilot forward in the same manner. From there the landing would be relatively similar to one with a hook turn used to initiate it, except you have less toggle input left to complete the landing.

Again, I am just trying to explain why people do hook their landings, not justify them. Of course the increased speed at the bottom is also a factor, but I don't believe one which could be used solely to justify the maneuver.

Ready, aim, fire the flaming arrows.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[AggieDave 6]

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what I don't understand is all the 'college age' kids that can afford it. they have yuppie parents...I could never have afforded to jump in college, plus I was working on the weekends.

Ramon, I have 2 jobs, that's how I do it. One that I work during the week and the other is at the DZ on the weekends. I pack, I do all kinds of things from washing the plane to helping build stuff, to rebuilding the tranny on the golfcart and even going to take over the web mastering. My other job I bust my ass cooking for a bar and grill (Fitzwilly's). Between the both of them I can afford to live (barely) and I can jump. That and I'm going to school on student loans and don't start paying those back until I graduate.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflyz 0]

Anwser me this,why do you think the guy at big air said that???(Avoid the ones with the closed off nose)They need speed to keep them inflated that why!!!so people that don't know that become very broken people!!!!

[quade 3]

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They need speed to keep them inflated that why!!!

Why would they need any more speed to land than they do to simply stay inflated?

I believe most canopies will remain inflated at very slow airspeeds. As a matter of fact, wouldn't that be one of the most desireable characteristics you could possibly have in a canopy design?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skycat 0]

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They need speed to keep them inflated that why!!!

No, the reason he said that was because, if they collapse in turbulance (remember he builds airlocked canopies) they take longer to re-inflate, due to the same reason they take longer to open. higher wingloadings = faster openings (ie. my xfire 116 took ~800 ft to opening, my xfire 104 ~600)

Fly it like you stole it!

[GrumpySmurf 0]

That's all?!?!?
My insurance is about $250/month - and it's been steadily increasing.

"Is there a law on to whom you are allowed to sell a Porsche Boxster "
Heh, they sold me one at age 26, and I didn't even have a license at the time I placed the order. Simply gave 'em the credit card and said, "Here's your security deposit. I want these options and I want delivery in May."

Finding an insurance provider on the otherhand, proved 'challenging' - so yeah rgroper is right - if an insurance provider thinks you are too high a risk, they will either jack your rate though the roof, or simply deny you coverage.


Oh yeah, on this whole low timer/high performance canopy thing, got into a similar discussion with a group of friends recenly on the exact same thing - skydivers believe in the premise of 'no rules aside from gravity' (and FARs 93 and 105) - it is left to us to both seek out the information and apply it in making judgements about what we feel is safe. Setting arbitrary rules would have little effect since the folk hellbent on trying the smallest/fastest will always find a way around it - eventually, the rule of gravity will catch up with them and they will serve as a reminder to the rest of us that, "That wasn't such a good idea." Darwinism, simple yet effective.

[Watcher 0]

Not Yuppie parents. Some of us have an instate college, with a HOPE scholarship (pays tuition and fees unless we drop below the 3.0 at review time). And then work 2 jobs during the week in between classes and such. And then found a good team deal so its cheaper than the norm to jump. I am averageing between 450-600 jumps for the 2002 year, I have been regularly jumping for 18 months, but know that i cant afford much more, but thats why i got my coach rateing as a first step for AFF in January (Georgia Tech will prob. pay for the course and practice jumps before hand, because in turn we can offer the club $550 AFF), So AFF will help subsidize the constant team training. Thats how.

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[rhino 0]

Kirilis is right. Jump number mean nothing if one has done proper homework. Skycat is also right on. If you can't land your canopy straight in something is wrong.

In my opinion it is definately beneficial to being a canopy in with extra energy. It makes for easier landings some of the time.

I have almost 100 jumps on my crossfire2, 97. Loading is almost 1.9. Their is a distinct difference in bringing it in with 100% energy and 120% energy. Either is easily landable but 120% affords more options and maneuverability.

I haven't jumped a closed nosed canopy at light loadings so I have no clue as to what the performance is.

As far as having 500-1000 jumps before getting on a crossbraced canopy? Their might be something with that? I put a couple of jumps on a Xaos98 and sent it back. I appreciate the flight characteristics of the crossfire2 much more.

Whatever you decide to do. Prepare yourself, pick the brains of the best pilots and be carefull.

Flying fast is great but the most important thing is getting to the ground safely. Knowing low speed flight characteristics of your canopy is where the gold is because we all have to stop sometime.

Rhino

[VivaHeadDown 0]

Whether you have previous flight experience, or just think you're the exception without any reason other than arrogance, jump numbers matter! Are high speed approaches beneficial to landing? Yup, but there is the need to be completely in control that only comes with experience. If you haven't had plenty of good landings, the odds of you handling a negative situation well are remote. Muscle memory can not be learned from thought or reading, it must be beat into the cells. Understanding the risks and thinking you're prepared aren't enough, you need the experience to back it. And it is recognized by many different areas of parachuting. Look at B.A.S.E. courses; They will not allow you to pay them money to go on the training courses unless you have a minimum of 150 skydives. Canopies have many unique in flight characteristics that can only be learned from experience. Got it? One more time...E-X-P-E-R-I-E-N-C-E. There are no short cuts.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[rhino 0]

YOU CANNOT LABEL A PERSONS CANOPY SKILLS BY THE NUMBER OF JUMPS THEY HAVE. I have seen people at 300 jumps outfly the hell out of 2000 jump wonders under canopy. Some people just catch on differently than others. Got it?

Ane as far as EXPERIENCE is concerned and not taking short cuts. As an example, my golf swing the day I started playing golf was better than most that play and take lessons for 10 years. I am a natural. That ability can carry into many aspects of life.
It isn't arrogance. It is just the way it is.

[cobaltdan 0]

"You know you really hit on my biggest pet peeves. I don't know how many times I've been told "you need to be hooking that canopy", yet none of them can tell me why I should be hooking it other than it is an elliptical canopy and ellipticals need to be hooked. Which is bull shit, if you can't land a canopy strait in you have no business jumping it. "

Skykat,

i used to say i would never perform hook turns. at a low number of jumps i had already seen too many people get broken doing hooks. i had much the same feeling as you expressed in your post above ..... then i read an article pointing out that there are 2 kinds of people that will get killed doing a hook. first the experienced hot shot pushing the limits, and the second the conservative pilot that says i will never do a hook turn !

the reason is that sooner or later you absolutely will be in a less than planed situation where you will need to perform a low turn to land. such a situation is >not< the time to learn how.

that article changed the way i looked at canopy flying. i firmly believe in learning the complete flight envelope of your canopy during planed practice. you need to be fully familiar and current on all aspects: flat turns, diving turns, landings: up/down/cross and with all possible approaches: straight/90/180

begineers should practice everything up high. hooks included. intermediates can practice hooks by offseting them from the ground, i.e. placing your turn to plane out 50' too high. with higher experience that offset can be reduced if desired. but in the event of having to perform a low turn to land, such practice will have been invaluable.


sincerely,

dan

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[billvon 2,402]

>You can also fly an elliptical at light wingloadings, I was on my 116
> crossfire @ 1.1:1,

OTOH I jumped a Stiletto at a little under 1:1, and it was dangerously unstable. Felt less stable in the air than my old Nova 150 did.

[rhino 0]

I'm curious.. "seriously"

On the Stiletto, does it make much of a difference having the chest strap loosened? My crossfire2 "at 1.9ish" is downright unstable as hell if I don't loosen up that chest strap. If I don't I feel every bump in the air. I loosen it and BAM.. That sucker hugs the road..

Is a Stiletto the same way?

[freeflyz 0]

You can't compare golf with skydiving!!!!!!!!And if jump numbers don't count what does!!!! Will you be perpared when you have to go down wind,low hook,etc if you have never EXPERIENCED it???????And right at that moment your going to be broken!!!!!!!! I started high performance landing under a 169 Safire 40,90,180,270,360 hook turns that taught me a lot!!!I've done some low ones before and live throught them because i had EXPERIENCE!!!!!!If that was before i had EXPERIENCE would be pushing up daisys RIGHT KNOW!!!After i put 400 jumps on it and pushed it as far as i could i went to a 149 crossfire,it was like learning everthing over almost!!So what kind of landind do you do????

[rhino 0]

I can compare whatever I like to compare.. It is called an analogy. The analogy was a sound one.

You had a sound, smart, subtle progression. I think that is fantastic!! You have set a great example for others no doubt. My progression has been a bit more aggrerssive "a risk I choose to take" The thing I enjoy most about skydiving "other than the people" is flying parachutes. I am not "team extreme" by any means and don't pretend to be. But I learn, try to improve on every flight and get advice from the pro's anytime I can.

I either to a 180-360 hook "normally 180-270", diving from 450-500 feet in double fronts, straight down.. "like hooksnswoop"


I did a few down wind landings at the convention during the speed competition. I also practice them at my dz frequently so that isn't an issue. I stood them all up if it means anything.

Rhino

[billvon 2,402]

>On the Stiletto, does it make much of a difference having the chest
> strap loosened?

190 - I have no idea. I jumped it with a Racer that only had an inch or so of slack in the chest strap. However, it doesn't have much effect on a Stiletto 150 (loosened it about 5 inches) and it does have some performance effect on a Stiletto 120, from my experience. In no case did it seem to affect resistance to turbulence.

As a side note, loosening your chest strap in heavy turbulence can make it _seem_ like turbulence is worse since you can knock about in the looser harness a bit more. On one jump at LP this year it was downright creepy. Fortunately I had a Lotus 135 at the time, which is about what I would want to be jumping in really bad turbulence. (Well, that or a Tri-135.)

>My crossfire2 "at 1.9ish" is downright unstable as hell if I don't
>loosen up that chest strap.

I think that smaller canopies are more sensitive to that since, geometrically, loosening your chest strap flattens them out a lot more.

[Samurai136 0]

Natural talent goes a long way at the beginning. What happens when that road runs out? Probably end up on TV's "Bluetorch" or "You Gotta See This" extreme wipeouts. Not neccesarily a good thing...

Skill is a reflection of ability AND experience. Natural talent is an asset if you use it to learn a skill. Natural talent is a liablity if you rely on only talent as skill.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rhino 0]

Very well said...

[freeflir29 0]

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On the Stiletto, does it make much of a difference having the chest strap loosened

On my 170 it makes a huge difference in the "feel" of the canopy. It feels much more stable, has a very noticeable difference in glide, and the flare. It turns differen't.....much less "twitchy" with the strap loosened. It also allows you to shift your weight farther in the harness for turns. Of course.....I free fly so I let probably let 12 inches of slack out after I open. Huge difference.

[VivaHeadDown 0]

Samurai136 has the olive branch take on this that I'll go with, HOWEVER (kinda like a big BUT), experience counts more than natural ability. It would be dangerous to think otherwise.

Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words

[skycat 0]

Dan,

Yes flat turns and flare turns are something everyone needs to know how to do. I have had to do them several times in the last few weeks due to someone having to bail out of a hookturn early. Yes I know how my front risers work and how to do front riser turns. That does not mean that I will be pulling down on a front riser 50 ft off the ground if I do I deserve the ass spanking the earth gives me.

What you posted still does not tell me why I have to do hookturns to get better landings by the way, just that people should know how to fly thier canopies and how thier canopies react in every situation.

Fly it like you stole it!