How old is TOO OLD

[DTOXX 0]

OK, I should achieve my first license (yes I know, BEER) next weekend. I have begun the mind boggling task of looking for my first rig. (beer) Of course like all things the older the equipement the cheaper it is.
My basic question is this: At what point is the age of the gear a real issue? I mean I value my life and want to protect it. On the other hand I can save some serious cash on older equipement.
Thanks in advance to all that offer advice.
DTOXX

[gus 1]

'Old' doesn't have to equal 'bad'! I've got plenty of friends who jump containers that are more than ten years old, infact some of them are probably a fair bit older than that.
Bear in mind that your choices might restrict what you can do in the air (ie think 'freefly friendly' But if you can find a rigger you trust to look it over and give it the thumbs up then why not?

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Kirils 1]

I have jumped 40 year-old canopies with even older containers. It's really surprising how structurally sound these old dinosaus
can be. A canopy that has been well cared for can have quite a long life. Just have a a rigger familiar with the gear check it out! Nastalgia is cool.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[wmw999 2,334]

The biggest problems with old gear will be freefly friendliness or lack thereof, square reserve compatibility (if you're getting a square reserve), and rigger familiarity with the gear. I regularly jump a 20-year-old container, main, and reserve that I bought new, so it can be done safely. A good inspection by a rigger who isn't scared of the gear will make sure that there aren't any integrity problems.
If you're looking at really old, I'm assuming resale value isn't an issue. If you're looking at really old gear, get someone from that era to talk to you about it. Some were dogs, some were just puppies.
Wendy W. (really old)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[drenaline 0]

Always send the gear to a known rigger before buying. The rigger can tell you if the price is right, if its airworthy and can give a pretty close guess on how much jumps it can last. Only bad thing with old gear is the non freefly friendly, some of them you can modify and some you can't.

I forgot to put this: Even if you have a rigger check it, you should also check with the manufacturer to see if it needs a service bulletin or if its grounded for life (ie. the cypres that are been sold in ebay, those are grounded for life).

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Shark 0]

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I mean I value my life and want to protect it.

I think you answered your own question.

As a newly licensed skydiver you have demonstrated that you can safely jump with others and save your own life. It's all about decision making. You just need to make the right one.

[tombuch 0]

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My basic question is this: At what point is the age of the gear a real issue? I mean I value my life and want to protect it.

There is no set point. Many newer rigs have safety features built in (pin protection, bridle control, ease of use, packing, maintenance), but that doesn't make older rigs unsafe, as such. Have a rigger check the harness for wear and elements that could/should be modified. Keep in mind that older gear is generally not a good idea when doing Vrw/freefly. Also, know in advance that some older rigs haven't been or can't be modified for a Cypres.

Speaking of a Cypres...please don't save dollars by eliminating this feature. There are some older Cypres units available with limited lifetime left, and others that are approaching their battery replacement or four year checks. Consider one of these as a way to save a few dollars, but as you calculate costs, figure in the required maintenance. At your level a Cypres is a really, really, really good idea.

Older parachutes can be a problem. A really old F-111 main that hasn't be used much and has been stored in a reasonable place will be fine. Have your rigger check the main, and have somebody you trust jump it. You should also jump the main if you have a chance. Be aware that old mains can be ragged out, or need new lines. A rigger should be able to help you with this issue. Older ZP mains are generally a better bet, but here too, you may need a new line set.

Consider a round reserve if you must, but know that rounds are not easy to resell later. Also keep in mind that while a round will work just fine, control and landings are very different and you will need to be comfortable with this. Likewise, a round shouldn't be jumped in high winds, and even at your limited experience, a round will probably limit when and where you can jump more than your experience will.

The key is to consult with a couple of instructors and at least one rigger that you trust. Make sure they each have a chance to inspect the equipment you are thinking of buying, and then ask for their honest opinion based on your skill, intended use, and price.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Sr. Parachute Rigger

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[fudd 0]

Quote

[#003366]At your level a Cypres is a really, really, really good idea.

I think a cypres is a really, really, really good idea regardless of level Oops, hope I don't release the trolls now....[/#003366]

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[riggerrob 613]

There are few hard, fast rules on parachute life. A few manufacturers have set limits. For example, Cypri must be reitred when they reach 12 years old. Also Strong Enterprises requires 8-year inspections on tandem gear. Tandem gear is faded, frayed and filthy after spending 8 years in the desert.
Other wise you have to trust the judgement of your local rigger. Better riggers/lofts may refuse to repack anything that has been jumped in the desert for more than 10 years, or sport gear more than 20 years old or pilot emergency parachutes more than 30 years old.
Some of those guidelines are based on wear patterns, but others are based on advances in technology. For example, hardly anyone takes round reserves seriously anymore for three reasons. First, few modern skydivers know how to land round reserves, and secondly there was a bad batch of mesh made during the 1980s. Many riggers refuse to have anything to do with 1980s round reserves because they simply do not want the hassle of worrying about acid mesh. Thirdly, round reserves border on use-less when you are trying to steer away from obstacles. For example, there are so many obstacles (river, town, ditches, etc.) surrounding Pitt Meadows that we have banned round reserves.
The first decent square reserve was introduced in 1981 - 21 years ago. Unfortunately, Swift 5-cell reserves have a weird steering line configuration that new riggers are not taught how to pack. Ergo, it is un-wise to purchase a 5-cell Swift reserve, no matter how in-expensive. NOTE: Swift Plus reserves have 7-cells and normal steering lines.
Also consider container configuration. For example, I still jump a 17-year-old Mirage, but have updated it with a BOC and bridle-hider-flap for sit-flying.

[wingnut 0]

i used to jump 18 year old gear... and curently have a couple canpies that date to 1981 and 1982, a reserve and main respctiley... i'd jump them now if i had a container to put them in..... old gear is just that old, not necisarily bad or unsafe...........

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[underdog 0]

i used to have a sabre with about 3000 jumps on it...it was about 10 years old when it blew up

[AndyMan 7]

How old is too old? See attached. As you can judge from the look on my DZO's face, the question is redefined as being "how old do I actually WANT to jump", vs "how old is safe to jump".

Properly maintained, gear can last a long time. Wether you actually want to jump that gear, is a whole other question. Any gear you buy used should be inspected by your local rigger, wether it's 6 monthes old, 6 years old, or looks like something in the attached picture.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[1234hutch 0]

I might suggest that an older rig is a good idea for a first rig

1 there are cheaper

2 you will make mistakes in the next 100= jumps and a larger canopy will reduce your you boo boos ( hopefully)

3 when you make a mistake that damages your gear its only a 1000 - 1500 $ rig NOT a 3000-5000 one.

Do not worry about resale too much. when you go to buy a zippy fast new rig whether you got 1200 or 1500 for you old gear doesn't affect the fact you need to fin $4000 + , all that much.

Hutch
d 467

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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...Better riggers/lofts may refuse to repack anything that has been jumped in the desert for more than 10 years...

What data do you have to support this claim? Undeniably, the desert environment is harder on gear then say landing and packing on grass all the time... however... just because a rig has been jumped in the desert for 10 years doesn't mean its "bad", as long as its "air-worth". Of course, that can be a point of contention.

[riggerrob 613]

Mr. Zig Zag,
Are you the Tim that used to work at China Lake?
The data that I used to support my claim that 10 years in the desert is bad for gear comes from the 6 years I spent rigging in Southern California: California City, Perris, Elsinore and Hemet.
When I worked in California City, my boss, Manley Butler refused to repack any pilot emergency parachutes that had been in service for more than 20 years. By the time they reached 20 years, most PEP were badly faded or approaching obsolescence. I also suspect that Mr. Butler was trying to convince his customers to trade in their military surplus and Security PEP for more modern PEP with technological advances like diapers!
When I worked in the Perris/Elsinore area I saw a lot of faded, frayed and filthy parachutes. If you consider that a hard-core, SoCal weekend jumper makes 300 jumps per year, that is 3,000 jumps worth of wear and tear on nylon. Again this was in the mid-1990s. When you consider that the Vector I was introduced in 1981, we were quietly trying to retire all the pre-Vector skydiving gear. Also consider that Para-Flite did not introduce the first decent square reserve until 1981 and Precision did not introduce the Raven series until 1983, all the preceding reserves were round and no civilian skydiving school has taught PLFs seriously in a looooong time.
When Square One ran the loft at Perris, they tried not to work on skydiving gear more than 20 years old. When Scott Christianson took over the loft, he uped the life limits to 25 years on skydiving gear and 30 years on PEP.
We would occaisionally repack older gear if it was still a comparatively modern design and had spent most of its life hiding in a closet.
Up here in BC we have a much shorter jumping season and usually land on grass, so gear wears out much slower. I have repacked a few Canadian skydiving rigs that are more than 20 years old, but these days you cannot GIVE away a Bullet with a round reserve! You would be hard pressed to find any jumpers at Pitt Meadows with 20 year old gear. Old gear is just not fashionable. Why just yesterday, the jumper with the rattiest old Racer told me that he was seriously considering buying one of those fancy new Teardrops.
John Sherman provides the closing point to our discussion about gear life. John did some research for the British military that concluded that most of the damage from jumping in the desert came from the tiny salt particles found in most desert soils. When those salt crystals get imbeded in parachute fabric, they grind away every time the parachute is packed. Haven't you ever un-picked a parachute seam and been rewarded with a handful of sand? Isn't China Lake (and many other SoCal DZs) just a dried up old lake bed?
Assigning a 20 or 30 year limit on gear may seem arbitrary, but there is method to our madness. First of all, we would like to quietly retire all pre-Vector gear, and secondly, most parachutes are worn out after 20 years of hard jumping in the desert.

[billvon 2,772]

>Unfortunately, Swift 5-cell reserves have a weird steering line
> configuration that new riggers are not taught how to pack. Ergo, it is
> un-wise to purchase a 5-cell Swift reserve, no matter how in-
>expensive.

I don't buy that argument. Using such an argument no one should use a Hobbit reserve, a Racer, or a Raven-MZ. All these are packed a bit oddly and/or have unique challenges. All of these (including the Swift) can easily be packed by reading the instructions.

If a rigger cannot follow instructions that describe the packing of a system, it is time to change the rigger, not the gear.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

... this may sound contentious, but its really just a conversation...


Well Rob, I won't deny that jumping in the desert is more harsh an environment than say Perris Valley.

Lets start by talking containers / reserves... lets jump into the time machine and fastforward to say mid to late 2004... next lets say I bring to you my 94 Talon with a Raven IIg not in it (unpacked) with a DOM also of 1994 for a reserve repack(maybe I'm at your DZ for a boogie and had to air my reserve and didn't bring my tools to repack it myself)... you look at the reserve packing data card and see that it has been repacked consistently every repack cycle since I first bought it in 94... packed at places like Cal City and Apple Valley... in fact I know the only time it wasn't packed at either of those desert DZs was when it was repacked once at R.I. at Perris when I had the hybrid version of the hard cable housing mod done... but I digress... and I tell you that I've been jumping this rig consistently (say an average of 200 jumps a year) over the past 10 years... okay... would you tell me that this rig / reserve is no longer airworthy simply because its been jumped in the desert for 10 years? ... or are you going and inspect the harness/container and do a pull test on the reserve and go from there before you would reply? Aside, hey, if the reserve fails the pull test, no arguements from me.

Next, lets talk mains... slow down and listen to what you just said... and I'm not disagreeing with you... but, however, in part of your last post, you talk about a example jumper who's doing say 300 jumps a year. Well, I don't care if you're jumping in the desert and dragging your main through the dust and dirt and over the sage brush and broken beer bottles and thru the cactus back to the hanger to pack it OR if you're jumping at some sort of mythical drop zone that has an environment approaching a clean room and its only packed by velvet clad nymphs... after 10 to 20 years at 300 jumps per year, I doubt there's a main in existance that would still be air-worthy!

So, I don't quite get what you're saying.

If you're saying that gear that has been in service and used on a regular basis for 10 to 20 to 25 years is approaching being "worn out"; then generally speaking, I'd agree... heck, that's kind of obvious... that's how wear and tear happens.

If you're saying that desert gear that is 10+ years old and all other gear that is 20 to 25+ years old should be shelved "just because". Well, I'd disagree with you. I know folks here in the desert that have gear in the 8 to 10 to 15 year window that is fine becasue they take care of their stuff. I know folks that jump in the desert that have gear that's 3 or 4 or 5 years old that is trashed because they don't take care with their rigs.

[riggerrob 613]

billvon,
We "sort of" argree on this issue.
We agree that if your rigger is uncomfortable with packing unfamiliar gear, then you should take it to a rigger who is.
The second part of our debate relates to whether or not a rigger should pack unfamiliar gear simply by referring to the instructions. Referring to the instructions only works part of the time. For example, I have never been able to close a Security 150 simply by referring to the instructions. It was only after Manley Butler showed me a few tricks, that I was able to close Security 150s without profuse profanity!
Which raises my big question: should junior riggers be expected to know how to pack ALL the older gear? I disagree with the FAA on this issue and say no.
I expect a sport rigger to be competent at packing square reserves and the half-dozen most popular containers. Beyond that I believe it is a waste of time to train a young rigger to pack obscure stuff that he will laugh out of his loft for the rest of his carreer.
For example, a rigger at Snohomish, Washington recently refused to repack a Security 150 PEP because "that's a seat pack and we are not rated to repack seat packs." He was partially correct. On the one hand, the FAA describes Security 150s as really long back packs, for which the rigger was rated. But, more importantly, he refused to repack the rig because he was unfamiliar with it.
I cannot see the point to a young rigger learning how to repack a rig that is more than 16 years old and rapidly fading from the soaring scene, especially when Par-Phernalia is a half-hour up the road and will cheerfully sew up a new Long Softie with technological advances like diapers.

[riggerrob 613]

A loft policy of refusing to repack skydiving gear that is more than 10, 15, etc years old is sometimes corporate baffle-speak.
Rather than hurt a customer's feelings by mentioning a long list of faded, frayed and filthy components, it is easier for a junior rigger to simply quote "company policy."
Mind you, the policy was never rigid. Master riggers occaisionally waive corporate policy "because you take such good care of your gear."
I suspect that Square One's original 20 year rule was an attempt to get pre-Vector, pre square reserve gear off the market. By the same logic, many riggers refuse to touch round reserves from the acid mesh era.
Just for giggles, find a 1982 issue of Prachutist magazine. Scan the ads and ask your self how much of that gear you would still jump.

[riggerrob 613]

If gear is faded, frayed and filthy, it is too old.
Counting the number of years since it left the factory is just a crude guess.
Hint, if a major dealer like Para-Gear does not stock it, then chances are you will have difficulty finding a rigger to re-pack it.

[splat200 0]

Here is an interesting article on is subject.

http://www.pia.com/silver/articlesarchive/beforbuy.htm

ps. Rob check your mail, do I need to bring a kicker plate ?