skreamer 1 #51 December 14, 2001 QuoteThere is always time to be a great canopy pilot, later, but only if you are alive later.I agree with this sentiment 100% - very well put. Why the big hurry to down-size? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #52 December 14, 2001 That's a pretty expensive way to practice solo CReW, dude! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #53 December 14, 2001 "lift equals one half rho V squared." This doesn't even have a space in the equation to add the mass of the coconut. How are you ever going to figure out the velocity of both kinds of swallows accurately without being able to factor the damn coconut?????? Dammitt.......What is the world coming to??????? "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #54 December 14, 2001 QuoteThis doesn't even have a space in the equation to add the mass of the coconut.The mass of the coconut doesn't enter in to it except that if lift > weight of coconuts then it'll fly and actually gain some altitude. ;^)Paulhttp://futurecam.com/skydive.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #55 December 14, 2001 yes clay, but if you get a flat in the desert, how many pancakes does it take to jack up the house?I say it's blue because ice cream has no bones.Your mother was a hampster...mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #56 December 14, 2001 Quotelift equals one half rho V squaredI thought 1/2 rho V Squared was actually the formula for dynamic pressure, e.g. the pressure created when you put your hand out of the car window and vary your speed? (Ask a bicylcist the difference he feels between 12 mph and 24. It is a factor of 4, not 2.) If you do an analysis of the units of this, the result says that 1/2 rho V ^2 is actually a force per unit area, such as pounds per square foot, rather than just a force like lift. flyhi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #57 December 14, 2001 because chicks dig scars!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #58 December 14, 2001 QuoteI thought 1/2 rho V Squared was actually the formula for dynamic pressure . . . It is! Actually, it's useful for several things but you said it yourself . . .Quote. . . such as pounds per square foot . . .Which is exactly what wing loading is.Paulhttp://futurecam.com/skydive.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #59 December 14, 2001 There is a safety and training section fro people that need to learn safety Many jumpers asking questions here probably do not need to be attempting swoop style landings, however spreading knowledge safely (from experienced people like chuck and alan) is probably better than having people experiment.jump high pull low surf long!!!!ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #60 December 14, 2001 "probably better than having people experiment"Definately, I'm only in one piece due to sheer luck!!!! Doing 360 hooks at less than 100 jumps is not adviseable!!!! I'll never do that again unless there is water underneath me!!!!! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spectrejumper 0 #61 December 15, 2001 Kelli wrote:>I mean how many newbies have actually hit the accuracy target? I hear alot of well I can do it if I have to it, or well the landing area is so huge why should I have to. After watching probably some of the best swoopers around doing stuff that to me was amazing, I was told that 99% of it is accuracy, being at point X at Y altitude, and if you aren't there, abort and find an alternate.<If you have a USPA license, you've at least been close to the target. Or you falsified your license applications. I commend you for getting some canopy coaching. Although in your post you say your landings were fine, I clearly recall a thread where you talked about how bad your landings were. Then you talked about how you downsized, got some coaching, and had good landings. The point of my little rant here is not to beat you up (you seem like a pretty heads up jumper), but to lead to a question. Do you think your landings got better because you increased your wingloading, or because you got coaching and started paying a lot more attention to your technique? I tend to think it's the latter. I also think it's why jumpers should spend more time on lightly loaded canopies that are forgiving of poor technique. A poorly executed flare or low turn on a lightly loaded canopy will get you dirty, and maybe cause some discomfort. The same maneuver on a highly loaded canopy will break or kill you.Mike D-23312"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #62 December 15, 2001 QuoteOr you falsified your license applications.As if that never happens. How many jumpers dragged out the measuring tape to be sure that they 'made' their accuracy landings? How many jumpers consider landing on the DZ an accuracy landing. Finally - how many JMs and S&TAs actually verify the information in log books before signing off on a license requirement/exam?Lots of things that should happen don't. Lots of jumpers can not reliably put a canopy within 10 ft of a designated target, much less on top of it.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spectrejumper 0 #63 December 15, 2001 QuoteAs if that never happens. How many jumpers dragged out the measuring tape to be sure that they 'made' their accuracy landings? How many jumpers consider landing on the DZ an accuracy landing. Finally - how many JMs and S&TAs actually verify the information in log books before signing off on a license requirement/exam?Lots of things that should happen don't. Lots of jumpers can not reliably put a canopy within 10 ft of a designated target, much less on top of it.All of that is true. I just wonder why people bother lying. I like to think that at least the A license accuracy requirements are somewhat enforced. Fraudulently obtaining a license is a disservice to skydiving. The licenses are meant to indicate a level of competence, they aren't just badges of honor. Demos or boogies or even certain landing areas at some DZs have license requirements because you actually need the skills those licenses certify to safely participate.Mike D-23312"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhawk 2 #64 December 15, 2001 indicate a level of competencei agree and is also a safty thing there is a eason that you cant do certain things till you have certain licensesSomeone said about this being a flame war while i wasnt paying much attention to the lift stuff it seems to me that while most everyone is stiken to there guns ppl are learning which is the point of this forum also if a newbee read it even if they took the "wrong" answer as correct a. it doesnt really matter to there safty its more theoretical b.they have alot of information about it.about the landing on target and the i can if i have to. Well i can if i have to however i choose not to 1. we have alot of students. A few new jumpers think that they have right of way constantly and always try and get as close as possible to the first 2 crosses (we have 3) i have seen a few new jumpers hurt themselves doing low turns to get the cross. 2 the good/better ppl also land in front near the crosses therfor it is usually busy. So yer when i want /to have to i can get the cross but i choose to land further out and walk back than get carried back on a strecher after trying to get the cross Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #65 December 15, 2001 What concerns me is that I haven't understood most of what you all said. Granted, I have never been good at word problems, and not the best mathemetician in the bunch, but I got lost somewhere, and never could pick it up again. I sit here, with 25 jumps, vaguely suspicious that this information is really important to me, but I can't get a handle on it. That's what concerns me. Ciels-Michele"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky". ~e e cummings~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhawk 2 #66 December 15, 2001 Michele prob best to ask spec questions about what you dont understand im sure they will be more than happy to explain Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #67 December 15, 2001 who ever said the target had to be the peas (crosses or whatever)? I thought that was the way it was and called myself out on a bunch of my student jumps. Truth is I was generally right on. Usually at about 3k, I would look at how busy the peas were already. At that point, I would adjust my target if needed to find a nice clean spot of grass, while maintaining the pattern. Our landing area is a bunch of different shades of green, so I would pick one spot and land there. I never did really count any of those and toward the end, was merging into the pattern and heading for the peas for score. I wish I would have known then that my 3k agl adjusted targets were okay to count.Just a thought,mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhawk 2 #68 December 15, 2001 yes i agree putting yourself where u want is one thing but landing at a prediterman d place before a jump is another Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #69 December 15, 2001 yeah, well, you're supposed to be spotting for yourself on those accuracy jumps as well... unless you're learning at a cessna DZ, have you even learned to spot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #70 December 15, 2001 Quoteabout the landing on target and the i can if i have to. Well i can if i have to however i choose not to 1. we have alot of students. A few new jumpers think that they have right of way constantly and always try and get as close as possible to the first 2 crosses (we have 3) i have seen a few new jumpers hurt themselves doing low turns to get the cross. 2 the good/better ppl also land in front near the crosses therfor it is usually busy. So yer when i want /to have to i can get the cross but i choose to land further out and walk back than get carried back on a strecher after trying to get the crossIt's already been mentioned, but I think it's important enough to hear again. The target doesn't have to be the big pretty student magnet pea gravel pit. It could be anything, and as long as you've committed to landing there (before the jump, not when you're 10 feet off the ground) then that should count as an accuracy landing. As an exercise try this: Before you board the plane pick 2 distinct targets in the landing area, a primary and a secondary or 'out'. Unless the primary is too crowded or maybe on fire, land there. If you can't make the primary due to obstacles then land in the secondary. If you can't make either one consistently then you've got problems with accuracy. If you do have problems with accuracy, then work on it! It's an important skill and I really think that most of us (myself included) need to be a little better at accuracy landings.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnischalke 0 #71 December 15, 2001 We jump an Otter and I started hanging out in the door around jump four and I started really spotting around jump nine. I think I spot well, thank you for asking.My adjusted targets were within a 25- to 30-yard radius of the center of the peas. Peace,mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhawk 2 #72 December 15, 2001 should reiterate i can get the preset target very easily i was just saying that i dont chose to land on the target Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflyguy 0 #73 December 15, 2001 Huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycat 0 #74 December 15, 2001 QuoteThen you talked about how you downsized, got some coaching, and had good landings. Do you think your landings got better because you increased your wingloading, or because you got coaching and started paying a lot more attention to your technique? 1st, you are not beating me up. I did have some less than beautiful landings especially as a student, I mean I only made it back to the DZ maybe 3 times, and when you have a pilot chute over the nose 4 times in a row, and almost every landing you had to do looking behind you cause you are backing up, yeah you are going to have some bad landings, and have ALOT of canopy fear. I used to HATE being under canopy, I used to sit in the plane dredding the end of the skydive. On top of it the gymnastics that made me able to PLF like I was born doing it (saved my butt on those pilot chutes over the nose) also left me with a really bad knee that I still to this day I will protect from the force of a landing by sitting down, actually it's more squating, to prevent it from being injured in anyway. btw...I don't care what anyone says .4-.5 wingloading is not good for anyone..I didn't learn anything other than point the canopy toward the DZ when you are open and pray you make it back...on the other hand I'm GREAT at picking outs and PLFing. When I downsized to the canopy I currently have I've had good landings from jump one. I had 50 jumps on it before I started getting coaching, but I've always been asking questions, I'm not "heads up" I'm anal and a perfectionist. Also because I'm a perfectionist, if I don't do something perfect I think it was bad, like when I hadn't jumped a bootie suit in ages and slipped in the mud at the end of my landing cause I didn't have my normal traction. You have no idea how mad I was at myself. Also I 100% agree with you that with the wrong technicque like I had when I first started jumping my crossfire would have hurt me when I downsize, I had a definately saber flare that I just kind of adapted to the crossfire. I knew it was wrong, so that is why I chose to get coaching, cuase I don't want to get hurt, actually it's cause the smoother I am and the better I get the less stress that is put apon my knee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #75 December 15, 2001 Wow! I am gone one week and come back to find this thread; whacky. Anyway, the my simple answer to the original question by Paul is "no." I am not bothered at all that people are asking. I find it much better than people now have a forum in which to gain canopy control-specific information. I will be happy to answer ANY question on the subject. You know, you are correct in saying that there are plenty of things other than swoop landings. While it's true that I devote a great majority of my time fine-tuning my technique, I can still stomp a disk, do CRW, and speak on basic and intermediate canopy control. I am sure that more sooner than later we will have people piping in with those "less aggressive" questions.Sincerely,C.W. Blue II<><>swoop lord and general man about town.My webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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quade 3 #58 December 14, 2001 QuoteI thought 1/2 rho V Squared was actually the formula for dynamic pressure . . . It is! Actually, it's useful for several things but you said it yourself . . .Quote. . . such as pounds per square foot . . .Which is exactly what wing loading is.Paulhttp://futurecam.com/skydive.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #59 December 14, 2001 There is a safety and training section fro people that need to learn safety Many jumpers asking questions here probably do not need to be attempting swoop style landings, however spreading knowledge safely (from experienced people like chuck and alan) is probably better than having people experiment.jump high pull low surf long!!!!ramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #60 December 14, 2001 "probably better than having people experiment"Definately, I'm only in one piece due to sheer luck!!!! Doing 360 hooks at less than 100 jumps is not adviseable!!!! I'll never do that again unless there is water underneath me!!!!! "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrejumper 0 #61 December 15, 2001 Kelli wrote:>I mean how many newbies have actually hit the accuracy target? I hear alot of well I can do it if I have to it, or well the landing area is so huge why should I have to. After watching probably some of the best swoopers around doing stuff that to me was amazing, I was told that 99% of it is accuracy, being at point X at Y altitude, and if you aren't there, abort and find an alternate.<If you have a USPA license, you've at least been close to the target. Or you falsified your license applications. I commend you for getting some canopy coaching. Although in your post you say your landings were fine, I clearly recall a thread where you talked about how bad your landings were. Then you talked about how you downsized, got some coaching, and had good landings. The point of my little rant here is not to beat you up (you seem like a pretty heads up jumper), but to lead to a question. Do you think your landings got better because you increased your wingloading, or because you got coaching and started paying a lot more attention to your technique? I tend to think it's the latter. I also think it's why jumpers should spend more time on lightly loaded canopies that are forgiving of poor technique. A poorly executed flare or low turn on a lightly loaded canopy will get you dirty, and maybe cause some discomfort. The same maneuver on a highly loaded canopy will break or kill you.Mike D-23312"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #62 December 15, 2001 QuoteOr you falsified your license applications.As if that never happens. How many jumpers dragged out the measuring tape to be sure that they 'made' their accuracy landings? How many jumpers consider landing on the DZ an accuracy landing. Finally - how many JMs and S&TAs actually verify the information in log books before signing off on a license requirement/exam?Lots of things that should happen don't. Lots of jumpers can not reliably put a canopy within 10 ft of a designated target, much less on top of it.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrejumper 0 #63 December 15, 2001 QuoteAs if that never happens. How many jumpers dragged out the measuring tape to be sure that they 'made' their accuracy landings? How many jumpers consider landing on the DZ an accuracy landing. Finally - how many JMs and S&TAs actually verify the information in log books before signing off on a license requirement/exam?Lots of things that should happen don't. Lots of jumpers can not reliably put a canopy within 10 ft of a designated target, much less on top of it.All of that is true. I just wonder why people bother lying. I like to think that at least the A license accuracy requirements are somewhat enforced. Fraudulently obtaining a license is a disservice to skydiving. The licenses are meant to indicate a level of competence, they aren't just badges of honor. Demos or boogies or even certain landing areas at some DZs have license requirements because you actually need the skills those licenses certify to safely participate.Mike D-23312"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #64 December 15, 2001 indicate a level of competencei agree and is also a safty thing there is a eason that you cant do certain things till you have certain licensesSomeone said about this being a flame war while i wasnt paying much attention to the lift stuff it seems to me that while most everyone is stiken to there guns ppl are learning which is the point of this forum also if a newbee read it even if they took the "wrong" answer as correct a. it doesnt really matter to there safty its more theoretical b.they have alot of information about it.about the landing on target and the i can if i have to. Well i can if i have to however i choose not to 1. we have alot of students. A few new jumpers think that they have right of way constantly and always try and get as close as possible to the first 2 crosses (we have 3) i have seen a few new jumpers hurt themselves doing low turns to get the cross. 2 the good/better ppl also land in front near the crosses therfor it is usually busy. So yer when i want /to have to i can get the cross but i choose to land further out and walk back than get carried back on a strecher after trying to get the cross Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #65 December 15, 2001 What concerns me is that I haven't understood most of what you all said. Granted, I have never been good at word problems, and not the best mathemetician in the bunch, but I got lost somewhere, and never could pick it up again. I sit here, with 25 jumps, vaguely suspicious that this information is really important to me, but I can't get a handle on it. That's what concerns me. Ciels-Michele"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky". ~e e cummings~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #66 December 15, 2001 Michele prob best to ask spec questions about what you dont understand im sure they will be more than happy to explain Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #67 December 15, 2001 who ever said the target had to be the peas (crosses or whatever)? I thought that was the way it was and called myself out on a bunch of my student jumps. Truth is I was generally right on. Usually at about 3k, I would look at how busy the peas were already. At that point, I would adjust my target if needed to find a nice clean spot of grass, while maintaining the pattern. Our landing area is a bunch of different shades of green, so I would pick one spot and land there. I never did really count any of those and toward the end, was merging into the pattern and heading for the peas for score. I wish I would have known then that my 3k agl adjusted targets were okay to count.Just a thought,mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #68 December 15, 2001 yes i agree putting yourself where u want is one thing but landing at a prediterman d place before a jump is another Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #69 December 15, 2001 yeah, well, you're supposed to be spotting for yourself on those accuracy jumps as well... unless you're learning at a cessna DZ, have you even learned to spot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #70 December 15, 2001 Quoteabout the landing on target and the i can if i have to. Well i can if i have to however i choose not to 1. we have alot of students. A few new jumpers think that they have right of way constantly and always try and get as close as possible to the first 2 crosses (we have 3) i have seen a few new jumpers hurt themselves doing low turns to get the cross. 2 the good/better ppl also land in front near the crosses therfor it is usually busy. So yer when i want /to have to i can get the cross but i choose to land further out and walk back than get carried back on a strecher after trying to get the crossIt's already been mentioned, but I think it's important enough to hear again. The target doesn't have to be the big pretty student magnet pea gravel pit. It could be anything, and as long as you've committed to landing there (before the jump, not when you're 10 feet off the ground) then that should count as an accuracy landing. As an exercise try this: Before you board the plane pick 2 distinct targets in the landing area, a primary and a secondary or 'out'. Unless the primary is too crowded or maybe on fire, land there. If you can't make the primary due to obstacles then land in the secondary. If you can't make either one consistently then you've got problems with accuracy. If you do have problems with accuracy, then work on it! It's an important skill and I really think that most of us (myself included) need to be a little better at accuracy landings.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #71 December 15, 2001 We jump an Otter and I started hanging out in the door around jump four and I started really spotting around jump nine. I think I spot well, thank you for asking.My adjusted targets were within a 25- to 30-yard radius of the center of the peas. Peace,mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #72 December 15, 2001 should reiterate i can get the preset target very easily i was just saying that i dont chose to land on the target Click Me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #74 December 15, 2001 QuoteThen you talked about how you downsized, got some coaching, and had good landings. Do you think your landings got better because you increased your wingloading, or because you got coaching and started paying a lot more attention to your technique? 1st, you are not beating me up. I did have some less than beautiful landings especially as a student, I mean I only made it back to the DZ maybe 3 times, and when you have a pilot chute over the nose 4 times in a row, and almost every landing you had to do looking behind you cause you are backing up, yeah you are going to have some bad landings, and have ALOT of canopy fear. I used to HATE being under canopy, I used to sit in the plane dredding the end of the skydive. On top of it the gymnastics that made me able to PLF like I was born doing it (saved my butt on those pilot chutes over the nose) also left me with a really bad knee that I still to this day I will protect from the force of a landing by sitting down, actually it's more squating, to prevent it from being injured in anyway. btw...I don't care what anyone says .4-.5 wingloading is not good for anyone..I didn't learn anything other than point the canopy toward the DZ when you are open and pray you make it back...on the other hand I'm GREAT at picking outs and PLFing. When I downsized to the canopy I currently have I've had good landings from jump one. I had 50 jumps on it before I started getting coaching, but I've always been asking questions, I'm not "heads up" I'm anal and a perfectionist. Also because I'm a perfectionist, if I don't do something perfect I think it was bad, like when I hadn't jumped a bootie suit in ages and slipped in the mud at the end of my landing cause I didn't have my normal traction. You have no idea how mad I was at myself. Also I 100% agree with you that with the wrong technicque like I had when I first started jumping my crossfire would have hurt me when I downsize, I had a definately saber flare that I just kind of adapted to the crossfire. I knew it was wrong, so that is why I chose to get coaching, cuase I don't want to get hurt, actually it's cause the smoother I am and the better I get the less stress that is put apon my knee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #75 December 15, 2001 Wow! I am gone one week and come back to find this thread; whacky. Anyway, the my simple answer to the original question by Paul is "no." I am not bothered at all that people are asking. I find it much better than people now have a forum in which to gain canopy control-specific information. I will be happy to answer ANY question on the subject. You know, you are correct in saying that there are plenty of things other than swoop landings. While it's true that I devote a great majority of my time fine-tuning my technique, I can still stomp a disk, do CRW, and speak on basic and intermediate canopy control. I am sure that more sooner than later we will have people piping in with those "less aggressive" questions.Sincerely,C.W. Blue II<><>swoop lord and general man about town.My webpage HERE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
