Teflon instead of curved pin

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I like the idea behind this. What are peoples' experiences with them (if any). How much would it cost to replace the pin with the teflon?
I'm not crazy - I a Skydiver

[SkyMissy 0]

I have no experience with throw outs with this setup, but the first time I heard of this it made me wonder. When packing my main, I generally like the loop tight enough that it is pretty difficult to get the pin through the loop. I might be over cautious, but I have noticed that when packing AFF ripcord rigs that I need the loop a little looser to get the ripcord through. Would this be at all dangerous with a throw out with a "ripcord pin" setup, or would the added length make up for the looser fit?
I'm not the man they think I am at home, no;
I'm a rocket man.
Sky World

[Slowfaller 0]

BEER! for the 1000th thread
I'll go to college; learn some big words; I'll talk real loud god damn right I'll be heard.

[Dumpster 0]

I never heard of such myself- sounds interesting -
Life begins at 14,000' - Shut up and jump!

[AggieDave 6]

There's a FFer that jumps at Waller (SD houston) that does that and it works really well. What he has is a throw-out that has about a 4 1/2" piece of cutaway line (that yellow plasict stuff that keeps your 3-ring together attatched to your pillow) that is folded in half around the attatchment point on the bridel where a closing pin would normally be. He has a small metel perminant clamp that keeps it together and tight. So he is left with a 2" long "closing pin" that is parrellel pieces of the cutaway line. I had asked him about it and he said it never moves, he doesn't have to worry about prematures or even the "pin" moving and he's been jumping it for a fairly long time.
*shrug* It works for him.
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[flipper 0]

Hi
I have used the teflon pin thing for the last 800 jumps (appx)...never had any trouble with it....subterminal or terminal...no problem..
the plus side for me is that the teflon pin is about 5 inches in length ...and harder for it to be pushed out by accident....or work its way loose while your at 160ish head down..
It tends to wear the closing loop a bit quicker than normal....but to me that a small price to pay for the added safety...
My tandem rig has one (strong) and we have recently converted our vector rig to the same ...
the best advice i can give you is to have a rigger fit it if you intend to get one ...its pretty criticle that there is enough slack between the pin attachment point and the top of the D/bag to allow the pin to fully extract before bag lift off....some rigs can have the teflon loop attached straight to the existing pin attachment point with no worries ...others need the pin attachment point moved...
the cost is around 15GBP....
if you need any further advice let me know.....
I could supply photos after the weekend if anybody needs it
flipper

[DZDale 0]

Sounds rather interesting, Have there been any safety issues documented with using a Teflon pin ?
Dale
A man's dreams are an index to his greatness.
- Zadok Rabinwitz

[skreamer 1]

Yeah, we discussed this before when I was considering getting the mod done.
I did have it done and have made 100 jumps since. I am really happy with it, I also tried the suggestion of getting '1 000 spectra closing loops made. They are a LOT more durable.
Will
"Don't die until you're dead"

[riggerrob 558]

Be careful which type of coated cable you use to build your flex pin.
Some of the cable with clear plastic coating tends to crack and jam, though the clear plastic coating that Strong uses for tandem flex pins is pretty durable. It usually frays long before it cracks.
Cable with a yellow Teflon coating may be too soft for a flex pin.
If you like your loop really tight, then your best bet is the cable with a black plastic coating that they use for AFF ripcords.
The doubled flex pin is a great idea. When one side starts to fray or carckm you can just cut it off and continue with the fresh side.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I heard that "they" went from a single flex pin to a doulbe flex pin to reduce the amount of single cable in contact w/ the closing loop to reduce the possibility of stripping the cable and creating a PC/Drougue in tow situation. W/ 2 cables there is less chance of stripping the cables. I wonder why manufacturers don't offer it as an option to have a flex pin instead of a curved pin on sport rigs? Anyone know of any downsides to flex pins on sport rigs?
Hook

[KellyF 16]

A stainless steel curved pin is lower maintenance than a piece of plastic covered cable. There is less friction between the pin and loop, and you generally won't find a nick or gouge (or manufacturing inconsistency) deep enough in a curved pin to create a dangerous situation. There was a tandem incident a few years ago caused (I believe) by a drogue release made out of the black plastic covered cable. It got a nick in it that the J/M couldn't pull through the release loop.
And as a side note, the yellow and black cable is NOT Teflon coated. It is a nylon called Lolon F(yellow) and Lolon G2(black). Jump Shack is the only manufacturer that I know of that uses actual Teflon coating on their cutaway cables (it's red).

[billbooth 10]

First, the yellow coating I use on my breakaway handles is Lolon F (an "alloy" of nylon, not Teflon), coating a 7x7 steel cable. It is the best choice for breakaway cables for several reasons. It is very tough, reasonably slippery, flexible, easy to form ends with, and won't get brittle until -60C. I have never heard of it cracking or coming off the cable in the 20 years I have been using it. (Jump shack IS using Teflon, which they
color code red. We do not use it for too many reasons to go into here.)
The black coating we use for student ripcords is another form of nylon. We do not use it for 3 ring cable because it is too stiff, not as slippery, and cracks far easier than Lolon F. However, Its stiffness is a good feature for a spring loaded pilot chute main container system, and because main systems are packed before each jump, a crack should be easily spotted.
I offer a third kind of nylon, with no color coding, for main container flex pins on my older Tandem systems. It is a thicker coating on a thicker steel cable. Each coating and cable size is carefully chosen for its application after a lot of testing.
Here are the positives and negatives of flex pins on solo system main containers.
Positives:
1. If your container is too big for your canopy and/or your closing loop is too long, and you jump a rig without adequate bridle protection, and your entire bridle comes out of the pilot chute pouch (without the pilot chute) while doing head down, then the flex-pin is less likely to be prematurely removed by the wind drag on the horseshoed bridle, which by the way, is well under one pound..
Negatives:
1. Because the flex-pin is longer than a curved pin, you must be very careful to leave enough pilot chute bridle, between the pin and bag, slack AND exposed, to allow the pin to leave the loop. If you carefully tuck all bridle between the pin and the bag safely inside your container, you will have a pilot chute in tow malfunction.
2. Because the flex-pin is longer and has more surface friction than a stainless curved pin, it damages your closing loop ten times faster. Also, you cannot put your pull-up cord under a flex-pin before removing it as you would with a stainless curved pin, because the pull-up cord would then cut grooves in the nylon coating of the flex-pin causing a possible total on your next jump. This causes you to further damage your closing loop each time you remove your pull-up cord. And the heat damage the flex-pin and pull-up cord do to your closing loop is nearly invisible. This sets you up for a broken loop, out -of-sequence horseshoe malfunction. Do you pack your own rig every time? Are you sure the packers understand the above limitations of your flex-pin system?
Then you have to worry about which type of nylon coating your flex-pin has (will it crack, or splinter, or come off the steel cable core?), and whether the nicopress swage which holds the whole thing together was properly applied. Standards for the above items are simply not published.
3. Curved pins cannot be "pushed" out, they simply rotate in place. Try it. When a curved pin comes out prematurely, it was most likely pulled out by a bridle snag. And anything which snags your bridle will probably not stop pulling after only one inch. So flex-pins offer no protection from bridle snag induced premature openings.
This is just the short list. If flex-pins were better for most solo rig applications, we would offer them. We don't.
Bill Booth
(Bill is the owner of the Relative Workshop, and inventor of the hand deployed pilot chute and three ring release.)

[skybytch 259]

Quote

(Bill is the owner of the Relative Workshop, and inventor of the hand deployed pilot chute and three ring release.)

And has likely forgotten more about skydiving equipment than most of us will ever know.
Glad to see you posting here Bill! pull and flare,
lisa

[PhreeZone 15]

Bill... Let me be the first to welcome you to the fourms here at Dropzone.com. I'm overly impressed by your indepth reply to the question presented. A question about the Lolon F cables being used for the cutaway cables: Are they damaged or are its basic properties and durability increased or damaged in any way by the application of lubricants like WD-40 or an oil? I've seen riggers coat the last 10 inches of Lolon F cables with a thin shean of a oil, let it sit for a while then lightly remove it so that only traces remain. Does this actually help or is this more harm then good to the cables?
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Hooknswoop 19]

Bill-
Thanks for the education.
Hook

[kwmontreal 0]

This folks, is the reason my new Mirage will be arriving next week. Thanks Bill, I hope you have some free time to post more factual info in the future.
KW

[AndyMan 7]

A big thanks to Bill Booth for showing up and answering these questions.
A second big thanks to Sangiro for creating this great community where we can have people like Bill show up and give these great answers. These forums are one of the best skydiving resources on the internet. It's great that the signal to noise ratio is so low.
Bill, I hope we'll see more of you in the future.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[skybytch 259]

Quote

This folks, is the reason my new Mirage will be arriving next week.

Ummm... RWS builds Vectors, not Mirages...
pull and flare,
lisa

[kwmontreal 0]

Ops.... ;-)

[billbooth 10]

A complete list of what will or will not harm Nylon is available in The Parachute Manual. WD-40 will cause no harm as long as you wipe most of it off. However, most oils actually attract dust and get a little tacky at low temperatures. There are also Teflon sprays, but they are really a very fine power which doesn't "stick" around for very long. This is why we now use a silicone LUBRICANT spray ( be careful here, there are also silicon adhesives) which stays with the cable longer, and remains slippery down to 50 below zero. I have easily broken away my main during a high wind landing at the North Pole, so I know this stuff works under any condition. Simply spray the silicone on a paper towel, and then wipe down the yellow cutaway cables. If your cables are covered with a sticky black stain, be sure to remove it all. You are cleaning as well as lubricating. The black stain is a combination of machine oils and metal dust left over from the manufacturing process. We wash the housings washed before installation, but some residue is still left behind, and your housings make new metal dust every time you flex them. If you jump in the desert, fine sand can also find its way into your housings. If you want the lowest friction possible, (and believe me you do if you jump mini rings and a small elliptical which might generate 6 "G" spinning malfunctions), I recommend you also occasionally clean your housings with a small bore gun cleaning rod, with a small cloth soaked in silicon spray.
This cleaning is important because dirty housings can multiply your breakaway force by a factor of up to TEN!
One more hint: If you have been living in Tibet and are still jumping a rig with soft housings, get them converted to metal housings, NOW. It would take me several paragraphs to tell you everything that is wrong with soft housings, and I'm out of time tonight.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I recommend you also occasionally clean your housings with a small bore gun cleaning rod, with a small cloth soaked in silicon spray.

I just learned something. Since I jump at Perris I'll be doing that to mine in the very near future and on a regular basis. Thanks Bill!
pull and flare,
lisa

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

One more hint: If you have been living in Tibet and are still jumping a rig with soft housings, get them converted to metal housings, NOW. It would take me several paragraphs to tell you everything that is wrong with soft housings, and I'm out of time tonight.

Bill, I'm confused. Are you refering to the cuttaway cable housings on the container or the risers? I still have soft housings in my risers. New risers with hard housings are on my shopping list but not my top priority. Should they be?
I jump a Stiletto at 1.5
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm willing to bet that Bill was refering to the hard cabeling on the actual container. The little spiral metal tubing that you feed the cutaway cables through. Older rigs or some people actaully still have the soft fabric houseings on their rigs. I've worked on one rig like that and after looking at it I can easly see how it could cause a hard cutaway in a spinning mal.
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[skybytch 259]

Quote

I can easly see how it could cause a hard cutaway in a spinning mal.

That's not the only issue. With the older Javelin's that came with soft cutaway cable housings it was very easy to misroute the cutaway cables. Routing them correctly required the use of a special tool to pull the longer cable through the inside of the yoke of the container.. Basically a pain in the butt; made what should be a routine procedure (removing and replacing the cutaway cables for cleaning) into a bit of a hassle.
pull and flare,
lisa

[billbooth 10]

AM
I was talking about housings on the rig, especially the long one. Should you have hard housings in your risers jumping a stiletto at 1.5? Absolutely. But please make sure these short riser housings are plugged at the top end. If even a half an inch of yellow cable protrudes beyond the top edge of either of these riser housings, even a minor riser twist will jam the protruding end against the open upper end of the housing, and give you an impossible cutaway. An uncapped housing could also slide down the cable, through the riser closing loop, and also give you a no release situation. This should be obvious, but I have actually seen some risers with uncapped housings on them. (The fact that these riser housings are up against the top of a tape channel does not count as a capped housing.)
There is a downside to these riser housings. (There is always a downside to every new thing you put on a rig. The trick has always been finding it before you sell too many rigs.) The riser housings increase the bulk under the riser covers, and on some rigs this can mean riser covers coming open in freefall. If you jump a rig without secondary riser covers, and do a lot of head down, this can be a consideration. Bill