Elliptical/Square?

[Skystorm 0]

Could I please have your opinions on elliptical and square canopies?
I've heard a lot about the elliptical's off heading openings? Is it true? And does the elliptical handle turbulance more effectively than the square?
As some of you know, I'm getting my own gear and I don't know if I should get a elliptical or a square. It's a toss up between the Heatwave elliptical and the ZP EXE square. I'm still on student status (21 jumps), and not quite as experienced as I would like to be. I was told that I need far more experience (than I have) to fly the elliptical.
Hang onto Heaven, when hell is on your back

[3fLiEr 0]

I hope your joking mate....... jesus............... do not consider an elliptical for your first canopy................ get a square.............. talk to people first dude................
bsbd
"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Search the forums, this question has been covered more than a few times
my mind is like a canopy - 9 cells and I'm happy

[flow 1]

Definitely the square. Don't even consider the elliptical before you have few hundred jumps, those are totally a different beasts to fly compared to square canopies.
j.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Consider getting a hornet instead of the ZP EXE
my mind is like a canopy - 9 cells and I'm happy

[Skystorm 0]

I've been talking to every one from the instructor to the camera man to every other skydiver I could find. And it's literally a 50/50 between these two canopies. Everyone I talked to, knows me and my history in skydiving.
I can't seem to find the treads mentioning this, please guys, I need help. I only have one week left before I have to decide.
PS: 3fliEr, I'm a dudette, not a dude Hang onto Heaven, when hell is on your back

[DaleThornton 0]

I personally think that you should not even consider the heatwave at your level of Skydiving, Firstly you dont have enough jumps to fly an elliptical safely. Secondly if you ever find yourself in a crowded air space with your level of experience flying an elliptical you may pose a danger to yourself as well as other skydivers. I do not fly an elliptical because I feel that I dont have the experience to fly one especially at my DZ where the airspace is sometimes crowded. I would suggest going for the Hornet which is also a South African made canopy. The hornet is a Semi elliptical canopy and offers great flying characteristics and landings as well as light toggle pressure which will be an advantage since you are a dudette. The hornet is almost the same as the new sabre 2 by performance designs but comes at a fraction of the price. Read the comments about the hornet on the gear page under PISA.
Good luck with your decision and dont allow DZ Peer pressure to get the better of you.
Cheers
Dale

[Skystorm 0]

Dale,
Thanx for the advice, and no I won't let peer pressure get to me. This is my life we're talking about..
I can't seem to get to the right PISA sight. All I get is a page displaying their tel. and fax. no. With no links whatsoever.
I would like to hear more about the Hornet though.
Hang onto Heaven, when hell is on your back

[PalmettoTiger 1]

If you're an exceptionally good canopy pilot for a student, you might be able to handle a lightly loaded Heatwave... until the shit hits the fan. At that point, you'll wish you had a less aggressive canopy over your head.
If you want to know more about the Hornet, check out the gear reviews section.
PTiger
I'm stepping through the door
And I'm floating in a most peculiar way

[3fLiEr 0]

"The hornet is a Semi elliptical canopy"
I would not advise a student to get a Semi-elliptical either........... you lot would?
bsbd
"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"

[PhreeZone 15]

3FlieEr.... look in the Talkback, and Saftey Fourms -> This will piss the canopy Nazi's off threads....
Put your feelings there... I want to see what you have to say.
Murphy's Laws of Love - If the person isn't taken, there's a reason for that...

[3fLiEr 0]

"the canopy Nazi's off threads...."
phuq me............... thats mad............. well phuqking let them femur it in!...........
bsbd

"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"

[skreamer 1]

Yeah, I got my Hornet (loaded at 1.2:1) after 70 jumps on big ass F111 canopies. I have now made 100 jumps on it and I don't either feel it is the right canopy for a student. Maybe if you are at some big busy progressive DZ where they have an established canopy school, then maybe....
Also, you have to consider how current you will be - and then err on the side of caution. Choose getting to the ground safely and jumping again over getting stretchered of the landing area and not jumping again for a looooong time. Choose life, choose a big TV etc. etc.
Just remember the Hornet is a 9-cell, ZP semi-elliptical canopy - treat it with respect!
Will
"Don't die until you're dead"

[MarkM 0]

Why go elliptical? Are you really going to benefit from it's higher performance? You don't need to buy a pig for your first canopy, but you should probably buy something that won't kill you when you make those big mistakes you'll be making on a few of your upcoming jumps.
I've also heard a lot of rave reviews about Hornets, but I'll be biased here and say to pick up a Triathalon. You can probably buy a used one pretty cheap these days, then after a few hundred jumps you'll know more about your skills and where you want to go with your next canopy.

[freefallin14 0]

I think that after a few more jumps you could possibly be ready for a Safire. They make great first canopies when lightly loaded. Granted I have never seen you fly or know your skills, but I do agree that a "fully" elliptical main would not be for you. The Safire is "semi tapered", meaning it is elliptical but not very noticeable. This is also in the Sabre 2, Hornet category. Any of these lightly loaded could make nice first canopies for the right person. Just make sure you receive input from your instructors and friends at your DZ, they are the only ones who will truely know what your skills are and what would be best for you.
Bret

[freeflir29 0]

I have 125 jumps now. I have done the last 80 or so on a PD 190. I have learned to hook, surf, and generally fly the dog shit out of this canopy. I have no reservations now about going down one size and going to something elyptical. I'm still learning new things every weekend about canopy flight. I'm glad at times I had a "slow" canopy over my head. It has saved my ass before. Get some more jumps before you get crazy...."I only have 125 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[DaleThornton 0]

Hey Sky
Pisa do not currently have a website up, but if you are really interested in knowing more about the hornet you can contact them Direct. Their staff are very freindly and will provide you with good info. Since you are from Tsumeb, it shouldnt be a problem for you to get a really good price and direct contact with them. They are based in Pietermaritzburg in S.A. Here is some info they sent me when I enquired for my rig.
"The HORNET is a semi-square Zero porosity 9 cell main canopy that has been tapered slightly to give you more response and performance without losing the basic characteristics of a square canopy. It has been designed as an intermediate to advanced canopy (depending on size and wingloading) and flys and lands very similar to PD's new SABRE 2. The Hornet has very light toggle pressure, a great flare and smooth glide which all contribute to a soft landing. As for packing the Hornet, it's made easier by the having colour coded line attachments to easily recognise your different line groups, a small pack volume and the ZP material we use is made in such a way that it slips a lot LESS than other types of fabric. It has become incredibly popular in South Africa as well as Europe and especially the States, and is available in the following sizes:
SIZE MAX RECOMMENDED WEIGHT
120 - 65kg
135 - 74kg
150 - 81kg
170 - 93kg
190 - 104kg
210 - 114kg
230 - 125kg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good Luck with your decision
Blue Skies
Dale

[dmkellett 0]

I did my first 11 jumps on sabres (210's abd 190's) The I bought my own gear with a Hornet 170. I weigh 185 at exit. I have since put over 100 jumps on the hornet and I think it's turned out to be a great first canopy. I have noticed it opens much better than the student sabres did and flys alot better too. As you are in africa I suggest you check out www.icarus.co.za they are a good dealer in SA. Don't go getting a Heatwave unless you fancy some broken bones... they are fantastic canopies for the experienced jumper but NOT recommended for a just off student status novice. just my opinion.
Have fun
Darren

[Skystorm 0]

Thanx to all of you who responded to my question.
I'll be going with the ZP EXE 170 Main and a 150 Tempo reserve.
Hang onto Heaven, when hell is on your back

[riggerrob 558]

Wise decision Skystorm,
Just for comparison, here at Pitt Meadows - students start with rectangular Manta 290 or rectangular Skymaster 290 canopies. As soon as they have done a few stand up landings in the correct field, they transition to rectangular Skymaster 230s.
Once they have done a dozen stand up landings under the Skymaster 230s, they transition to slightly tapered Hornet 190s.
After a dozen jumps on the Hornet 190s, they are usually ready to buy a main canopy in the 190 to 150 square foot range. Size is determined by their exit weight and canopy flying skills.
Planform is determined by cost. People who have just experienced Progressive Financial Failure buy used rectangular Triathlons or rectangular Sabre Mark I canopies.
People with more bucks tend to buy new slightly tapered Hornets or slightly tapered Safires. Nobody here has been able to scrape up enough Loonies to buy a new slightly tapered Sabre 2.
Now that most new canopies are tapered, the term "elliptical" is rapidly becoming obsolete. I wish we could delete the "e" word from our vocabulary. Besides, I have never seen a canopy that matched the geometrical definition of elliptical.
Wing loading is far more important than planform in determining how fast you arrive at the scene of the accident.

[3fLiEr 0]

From the Icarus site - Wing Loading and its effects............ choose wisely...................
This article is meant as a guide only, there are many factors that come into play such as competence, DZ Altitude, density altitude etc. We suggest you discuss your canopy style and size with your instructor or safety officer at your DZ before making a performance style and size selection.
The wing loadings given here relate to Icarus canopies and Icarus canopy sizings. Many manufacturers use different sizing methods, our sizing relates to most canopies in the field but not all.
There has been some talk recently about rethinking wing loadings to determine performance as several factors are not allowed for using a weight to area ratio.
When a canopy size is changed and/or the weight under it varied, several factors change and many things do not remain in proportion. HOWEVER, WING LOADINGS ARE STILL A VERY USEFUL REFERENCE TO ASSESSING AND PREDICTING A CANOPIES PERFORMANCE.
Although interesting to understand, There has been to much importance put on this point in my opinion. Scale effect is significant when designing a model airplane but for our situation the differences involved are minimal and not worth introducing at the sacrifice of being able to talk easily in wing loading terminology.
There are three main factors you will need to consider when selecting a canopy:
Your weight,
Your experience and ability,
The type of canopy ride you want.
There are many canopy "model specific" performance variations that are detailed below. We have graphed each canopies performance envelope as a quick guide on the next page. The performance of any canopy will vary greatly with wing loading. Any canopy can go from a student canopy to a rocket ship depending on the size ordered and the weight of the user.
Wing loadings are used as a guide to this combination of size and weight that will determine a canopies performance. Wing loadings are measured in Pounds (at exit weight) per Square foot (of canopy area) or "PSF" and are calculated by dividing the exit weight into the canopy size. We have further grouped wing loading ranges into 6 different classes of performance, to explain the performance you may expect within this wing loading class. There is a gradual change in performance between the classes. The class description describes the mid range of each class, and the wing loadings at either end may tend towards another class.
Class 1
Student Canopy
.5 to .75 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
This wing loading will perform basically as a student canopy. You may wish to choose a canopy in this range if you are very unsure of your ability, physically injured or disabled in some way, elderly or frail or as a student canopy. A canopy in this class should not be jumped in over 15 knots. These canopies are easily affected by turbulence.
Class 2
Docile
.75 to 1.00 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
Still a very docile range. This would suit an advanced student canopy or a first canopy for someone preferring to err on the safe side. Again affected by higher wind conditions before most canopies would be.
Class 3
Mid Range
1.0 to1.25lbs/SqFt wing loading
This mid range of canopy is a good bench mark to work from. These canopies are high enough wing loading to start having a little fun yet low enough that a reasonably competent low time jumper could handle one as a first canopy (check with your C.S.O.) and still have a canopy they want to be jumping in a couple of hundred jumps time. This is also getting into the range that must be treated with a little respect however still has a reasonably good margin for error. Most of the canopies we sell are in this range. From this loading up, most wind conditions allowable for jumping are not a problem.
Class 4
High performance
1.25 to 1.65 Lbs/SqFt wing loading
Now we're having fun ! We're also into potentially high danger area! Turn speeds are increasing air speeds and speed range are increasing dramatically all of which provides us with a direct trade off between fun and safety. Canopies in this range must be flown to the ground! Recovery arc's are generally over 200 feet and toggle input movements are getting noticeably shorter. A high degree of experience and competence is necessary to handle a canopy in this range. Flying a canopy in this range must be done by feel, every maneuver must be well planned ahead as things are happening very quickly. With a high wing loading turbulence will affect the canopy less but if affected remember you are traveling much faster. Being dropped 1/2 a meter by turbulence under a class 2 canopy isn't even going to affect your stand up landing but being dropped 1/2 a meter in the middle of your ballistic turf surf could ruin your summer. The same goes for other obstacles - buildings, fences, people, other canopies, etc, have much more impact at high speeds. Even uneven ground or short landing areas should be considered obstacles. These canopies will still be traveling horizontally in nil wind conditions. A collapsible pilot chute is recommended. Lowering the slider and loosening ones chest strap is suggested.
Class 5
Extreme
1.65 to 2.00 Lbs/SqFt wing loading
Not for the faint hearted. If you are one of the few people that want to fly a class 5 canopy consider every aspect of what you are doing very carefully. On the up side there is very exhilarating airspeed, quick response times and powerful maneuverability. On the down side our margin for error has reduced to almost nothing (!), compounded by the fact that if we do make an error we are almost certainly traveling at speeds that can maim. If you have or are considering a class 5 canopy we can't tell you how to fly it in this overview, we must assume you know what you are doing. Most people I watch flying class 5 canopies don't fly them to the limits of the canopy and the performance they achieve from their canopy could be achieved from a class 4 canopy flown to its limits with a far greater safety margin. These canopies generally have to be run out on landing. They must be fitted with a collapsible pilot chute. Lowering and collapsing the slider and loosening the chest strap is recommended. Canopy recovery arcs can be over 400 Ft radius. The step from a class 4 canopy to a class 5 canopy can be quite large i.e. for a 80 kg jumper with gear and weights the difference between a 105 and a 95 feels similar to the difference between a 130 and a 105.
Class 6
BALLISTIC ! ! !
2.0 to 2.4 Lbs/SqFt wing loading.
If you are considering this, you don't need an explanation.
"In a world where we are slaves to gravity I am pleased to be a freedom fighter"

[fred 0]

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Class 3
Mid Range
1.0 to1.25lbs/SqFt wing loading

I've seen this article before, and it scares me. I'd really like a Spectre 190 as my first canopy, but I would be loading it at almost exactly 1.25 (actually, 1.23, but whatever). Isn't this too advanced for somebody's first canopy?
I've had a gift for landing since my second jump (first jump was a mess, but it wasn't me! It was my instructor's fault, I swear! 'struth!). Most of my landings have been run out. A few have been stand up. The ones that didn't go perfectly have left me on my knees.
But I know there's a lot more to canopy control. I'm definately *not* good at judging my height, or steering myself in for a spot on landing in the peas.
If I have my way, I'll put about 20-30 more jumps on student gear, and go down to the 190. The brighter side of me says, "Nuh, uh... No you won't. You'll put about 20-30 more jumps and get yourself a nice safe 210".
Both seem like major steps from a 280, but I feel like jumping to a 190 would really upset a canopy nazi, but here's icarus saying, "If you're good under canopy, go for it."
Can anybody provide input on this?

[Jimbo 0]

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Isn't this too advanced for somebody's first canopy?

Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on the person, their skill level, and most importantly the training they've had. Discuss it with your instructors and mentors.

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If I have my way, I'll put about 20-30 more jumps on student gear, and go down to the 190. The brighter side of me says, "Nuh, uh... No you won't. You'll put about 20-30 more jumps and get yourself a nice safe 210".

Why not, before you buy, spend the next 30 or 40 jumps working your way down to the 190. You'll know then if you're able to handle it, so will your instructors and mentors. It's really important to have jumped gear before you buy, those who don't usually regret it.

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Both seem like major steps from a 280, but I feel like jumping to a 190 would really upset a canopy nazi, but here's icarus saying, "If you're good under canopy, go for it."

It may upset a canopy nazi, but ultimately you're the one who has to live with the decision. Icarus has, in my opinion, published fairly reasonable descriptions of wing loading vs. performance. Here's the complete description.

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These canopies are high enough wing loading to start having a little fun yet low enough that a reasonably competent low time jumper could handle one as a first canopy (check with your C.S.O.) and still have a canopy they want to be jumping in a couple of hundred jumps time. This is also getting into the range that must be treated with a little respect however still has a reasonably good margin for error. Most of the canopies we sell are in this range.

You decide, you're the only one who can make this decision. Remember, any canopy is dangerous in the hands of someone who has not been properly trained in it's operation. While it's true that a Stilletto or Crossfire are less forgiving of mistakes, a lightly loaded Sabre or even a generic PD can and will kill you given the right circumstances. As you increase wingloading your margin for error decreases, but I don't think that a wingloading of 1.23 in the hands of someone with around 50 or 60 jumps and proper training is unreasonable.

[kbell 0]

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I've seen this article before, and it scares me. I'd really like a Spectre 190 as my first canopy, but I would be loading it at almost exactly 1.25 (actually, 1.23, but whatever). Isn't this too advanced for somebody's first canopy?

My first (and current) canopy was a Spectre 190 that I load at 1.3. I started jumping it on my 54th jump, so I rented student gear for a while. However, at my DZ, there was a wide range of sizes available and I was able to downsize gradually. Based on my experience, I don't think I'd recommend going directly from a 280 ft^2 student canopy to a Spectre 190 without jumping several sizes in-between (When you say run-out landings, are we talking an all-out sprint, or just a step or two?). My canopy progression was:
PD 340: 4 jumps (practically a tandem main....)
PD 300: 13 jumps
PD 260: 8 jumps
PD 230: 8 jumps
Sabre 210: 20 jumps
I remember going from the 340 to the 300 was barely noticeable, but on moving to the 260 things seemed to speed up drastically and I scared myself and went back and jumped the 300 for about five more jumps before trying the 260 again. Going to the 230 from the 260 wasn't too hard, but switching from the worn out student F-111 mains to the ZP Sabre was another challenge that took a few jumps to master. Moving from the Sabre to the Spectre wasn't too difficult once I got used to the steep approach and ground rush you get from a Spectre.
BTW, I now have 300+ jumps on my Spectre, and still love flying it.
Kevin

[Spectrejumper 0]

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I've seen this article before, and it scares me. I'd really like a Spectre 190 as my first canopy, but I would be loading it at almost exactly 1.25 (actually, 1.23, but whatever). Isn't this too advanced for somebody's first canopy?

I also started on 280+ sq ft canopies (Raven 4's), then put a few jumps on a PD230, then a few on a Griffin 210. At 57 jumps I demoed a Spectre 210 for 4 jumps, then I bought one. I put 410 jumps on my Spectre 210 loaded at 1.19:1, and I loved it. Then 30 jumps on a demo Sabre2 190 convinced me to buy a new canopy. My point here is that if you put a bunch of jumps on canopies sized between 280 and 190, by the time you get to 50 jumps or so you should be ready to handle that 190 at 1.23:1. I also wanted to illustrate that you'll probably be happy at that wingloading for quite some time, I know I was.
Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH