Misbehaving Passengers?

[JohnMitchell 14]

Last weekend I had a guy, mid twenties, bigger than me. I'm 6'1", 175 pounds. Guessing he was 6'2", maybe 220. Standard poised door exit from a Twin Otter, facing forward.

The moment we go out, he throws his head down and tucks up for two super fast front flips, the direct opposite of my exit instructions. I got as big as I could, flew to slow the rotations and hucked the drogue as we came face down again. It seemed intentional as hell, like "I want an extreme skydive, I'll do what I want".

All I said to him about it, while under canopy, was "I don't remember briefing you to tuck into the fetal position on exit."
What do y'all think? Should I have said more, or just suck-it-up-cupcake-that's-tandems-for-ya?

[TheCaptain 2]

If the passenger did it intentionally than he really does not care about your opinion and if it was unintentional than what is really gained by making them feel bad about their performance in free fall. Most students never come back so I see no point in adding anything negative after the jump , personally

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[JohnMitchell 14]

Good point, thanks.

[DougH 270]

I think the same thing too, every single one has great exits and arched perfectly, unless they come back for instructional jumps and keep pulling the same routine!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Should I have said more?

Under canopy? No; under canopy is a bad time to get into an argument.
On the ground? Nah, cuz as the other guy said, it's probably a once-off, so what's the use?

Now then: if he comes back as a student? YES, I'd give a serious, professional talking-to about how he needs to follow instructions scrupulously, or he can just find himself another DZ at which to train.

[peek 20]

TheCaptain

Most students never come back so I see no point in adding anything negative after the jump...

Except...

If he tells other people about getting away with something like that, then we might see more students doing things like that.

Years ago, I was doing a first jump AFF and the video guy took us all out, with lost grips all around. The student was stable by the time we got back to him, but right before I re-docked, I saw a strange smile on his face, and then he bent at the waist and did a front loop. When I asked him about this on the ground he suddenly could not understand English very well and did not have an answer. If I had not been needed on the next load, I would have given him the 3rd degree. I'm about 99% sure he did this intentionally, because right before he did it, he was quite stable.

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed!
Maybe I am old and burnt out, but I gave up on arguing with tandem students a decade ago.
I figure the most professional thing I can do is tell they "great skydive!" then grab the next student.

Tandem students do stupid stuff.
Get used to it!

On the slim chance that they return to learn how to skydive solo, manifest will have to deal with them because I will suddenly going to find myself waaaaaaay too busy "lubricating all the widgets on the tandem drogue swivels." ... you know, according to that Emergency Panic Before the Next Jump Service Bulletin that Strong Enterprises is going to issue tomorrow.

[jimjumper 25]

I had one once, that after a reasonable exit and drogue toss, looked like he was trying to grab his toes! He went into a full pike position 3-4 times till I swept his legs and he quit. After opening, I asked him what he had been trying to do, and if he had missed that little arch training thing I did. He said, "I wanted to go head down real fast. I saw it in a James Bond movie last week...Hey, can I fly the parachute around?" I said, "Nope, just keep your hands where I can see 'em." With an Otter, I usually dived out to the left and used their mass to bring us flat as we slid down the hill. This way it doesn't make much difference what contortions they do. The camera exit shots suffer though, because its harder to get a good face shot with that type of exit although they come out great with handcam. "Doing a tandem is just like getting a present from your Grandma. You don't know what your going to get, but your probably not going to like it!"

[douwanto 22]

I have seen more and more students doing this and it is directly related to forums and social media forums like facebook where they can spread the word on how to do flips as well as the few DZ's out there that continue to allow their TI's to do flips and shit. If a student now ask about flips I share the part in the manual that says I can knock them the fuck out if they are endangering my life and I have not had any issues since.

Once we took 2 guys in a large group who did this very thing and admitted they were trying to flip after being told not to. I sent the rest of his group home for the day and rescheduled them for a later date and explained that the intentional unsafe acts of their friends placed our staff in danger and might cause them to loose their tandem fee's.

When they returned they all enjoyed their jumps without incident and expressed their understanding of the situation.

You should have no issues informing your customers their boundaries and when they are crossed enforcing the rules.
As Bill says this is not a carnival ride and their actions can drastically effect the outcome of their skydive.

You better believe if you allow it or ignore it will increase.

Just my take

I would Love to Hear From Tom Noonan and other examiners concerning this as I am sure it will increase like go pro request.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[JohnMitchell 14]

douwanto

I have seen more and more students doing this and it is directly related to forums and social media forums like facebook where they can spread the word on how to do flips as well as the few DZ's out there that continue to allow their TI's to do flips and shit.

No kidding? Damn, yeah, I was being taken for a ride. Thanks for your post.

[obelixtim 100]

Exit and drogue pitch are a critical part of a safe skydive. If there's an incident, guess who gets the blame?

Problems with drogues have already killed people.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[TomNoonan 1]

Hi Chris,

Great input. While I don't think I am as old as Rob.....lol, I have to admit, I read his comment too, and thought: "Yup."

Quote

Maybe I am old and burnt out, but I gave up on arguing with tandem students a decade ago.
I figure the most professional thing I can do is tell they "great skydive!" then grab the next student.

I don't think Im burnt out, but I think most tandem instructors that have been doing this for a while realize, this sort of thing will happen from time to time, and rather than lecture the student, just move on smiling.

I'm not too worried about the underground "flip movement" per say, students have been doing weird things to Tandem Instructors on exit, in free fall and in drogue fall, by accident and or on purpose, ever since tandem skydiving began.

My perspective is that if we put our students in the door properly, put them in the relative wind properly on exit, fly our own bodies and do what we are trained to do, they could try and flip all day long and its not going to affect the outcome of the skydive.

Thank you for including me in the conversation, I always like to hear from others in the field on this stuff.

Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

[richwilk 2]

Never be afraid to give positive criticism. Word it in such a way that they understand its not a ride, its a learning experience and you have to work as a team.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Now then: if he comes back as a student? YES, I'd give a serious, professional talking-to about how he needs to follow instructions scrupulously, or he can just find himself another DZ at which to train.

+1

[JohnMitchell 14]

TomNoonan

My perspective is that if we put our students in the door properly, put them in the relative wind properly on exit, fly our own bodies and do what we are trained to do, they could try and flip all day long and its not going to affect the outcome of the skydive.

This guy sure got me flipping!

Maybe I shouldn't wrestle outside of my weight class.

But yep, I did get the drogue out safely and complete the skydive.
Thanks for all the responses, everyone. Good stuff.

[theonlyski 3]

riggerrob

On the slim chance that they return to learn how to skydive solo, manifest will have to deal with them because I will suddenly going to find myself waaaaaaay too busy "lubricating all the widgets on the tandem drogue swivels." ... you know, according to that Emergency Panic Before the Next Jump Service Bulletin that Strong Enterprises is going to issue tomorrow.

Luckily I never really had this issue doing tandems, half the time if they're not getting video and they ask if we can do flips, I say sure but don't tell anyone. Once the canopy is open they talk about how awesome it was flipping over... but we never flipped

Remember, most students seemingly lose their exact recollection of the exit, they were in the plane, then they were in freefall. You could almost convince them they blacked out for the first couple of seconds sometimes.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DougH 270]

What ever they want an arch is what will get it for them.

The extreeeeeeeeemeeeely douchy 19-21 yo males that want to "flip and shit" or hook up mid free fall are told that if they arch I will flip, or if they arch they will go super fast.

The somewhat freaked out student that is worried about flipping, or spinning, they get the more accurate response that we can have a nice exit, with no flipping, and that arching helps make the free fall nicer.

The mountain dew crowd can be told that the nicest exit was a triple gainer.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[riggerrob 558]

When aggressive, young male tandem students demand "flips and shit," I do my most aggressive exit, throwing their bellies into the wind. I aggressively toss the drogue as I fall past the rudder trim tab. Then I dig in a knee and an elbow and do a few really fast turns while still on the hill.
Students see "blue, green, blue, green" and believe that they did "flips and shit" on exit.
Only one student angrily complained that we did not do "flips and shit" on exit. I shrugged my shoulders and wandered off. He did not know that I had already thought thru the next few steps of the confrontation.
If he had pressed the issue I would have told him to "take your complaint to manifest."
"Sorry sir, but flips and shit are not part of our normal procedures"
Manifest had a copy of Strong's TI Manual on the shelf.
Manifest had also warned a couple TIs that any more deliberately unstable exits would get them fired!

[Fast 0]

One student of mine was kind enough to throw his head back as hard as he could to try and do backflips mid drogue-fall. That was the end of not wearing a full face when I do tandems.

I was quite mad at him cause I told him we couldn't do flips in freefall even if we wanted to. He thought he was going to prove me wrong. I just let it all go though. Those people get account flagged incase they show back up for AFF.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[JohnMitchell 14]

Fast

One student of mine was kind enough to throw his head back as hard as he could to try and do backflips mid drogue-fall. That was the end of not wearing a full face when I do tandems.

I was quite mad at him cause I told him we couldn't do flips in freefall even if we wanted to. He thought he was going to prove me wrong. I just let it all go though. Those people get account flagged incase they show back up for AFF.

I've gone the Cookie G3 route too.

I like the flag thing. I'll think about doing that if I run across a real attitude problem in the future. I've seen a student or two totally try to kill themselves being "cool".

[Krip 2]

JohnMitchell

***One student of mine was kind enough to throw his head back as hard as he could to try and do backflips mid drogue-fall. That was the end of not wearing a full face when I do tandems.

I was quite mad at him cause I told him we couldn't do flips in freefall even if we wanted to. He thought he was going to prove me wrong. I just let it all go though. Those people get account flagged incase they show back up for AFF.

I've gone the Cookie G3 route too.

I like the flag thing. I'll think about doing that if I run across a real attitude problem in the future. I've seen a student or two totally try to kill themselves being "cool".

John

You've done a lot of tandems, and even raised a your own kids.

Maybe you can out think them just like you did most of the time with your kids. Ask them if they want to do the flipper. Anyone that says yes. Explain the situation to them in advance.

Your body your rules. Video to bad told you not to do that stupid dangerous crap. The camera dude couldn't keep up due to their inappropriate behavior, but he still gets paid. Definitely flag their file and log book if they have one.

Be well. Your retired enjoy it.

One Jump Wonder

[diablopilot 2]

I'd just smile, shake their hand, and write "Repeat Tandem Level 1" in their logbook.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Pablo.Moreno 0]

Yesterday had three student in a row ( two Chinese and one Ukrainian) bringing their arms out and crouch on exit.

I always practice the exit in the plane, and I make them do the gesture and then I do it on ride up "make sure to have head back and arms crossed until I tap", but that's the fun with doing tandems you never know what to expect from the students.

[petemac 0]

TomNoonan

My perspective is that if we put our students in the door properly, put them in the relative wind properly on exit, fly our own bodies and do what we are trained to do, they could try and flip all day long and its not going to affect the outcome of the skydive.

Yeah 100%, get it right in the door usually goes smooth.
However, you do have to grin some days! I'm always upbeat with the student, its part the job.

That said, I'll be firm, but professional when they need it.

[potatoman 0]

If they wanna do flips, just tell them it is too scary for you, and if they flip you around, you will simply cut the passenger away, like last weekend.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.