Innapropriate behaviour from a TI?

[DcloudZ 0]

I was witness to a rather uncomfortable situation this past weekend at the dropzone.

A tandem instructor (always a great guy and rather professional) was acting somewhat out of character Sunday afternoon and I found it quite disturbing.

There was a group of great looking girls all doing a tandem jump. I witnessed most of the behavior from the gearing up and on the plane ride up.

During the gearing up, all of the ladies were offered popsicles by one of the regulars. (Which I found was quite nice
During the plane ride up, I observed this tandem instructor acting innapropriately with the student. At one point, while sitting on the bench, he wrapped his legs around the girl. She had a totally uncomfortable look on her face. The instructor continued to do so, as well as laugh about it and point it out to other TIs until she said that it was not comfortable.

Perhaps I'm over-reacting but I think that it is totally innapropriate to treat a passenger like that and ultimately results in a less than pleasant experience for the passenger. It shows a complete lack of professionalism and undermines the credability of the dropzone.

I was unsure how to react to the situation in the moment so I did not say anything at all. All of his colleagues were acting properly with the rest of this group of girls.

What is your opinion on this situation and what would you have done?

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[DougH 270]

As a low time jumper you shouldn't have to say something, his fellow TI's should be stepping up when this instructor crosses the line. They are peers, and in a better position to say something, and I would go as far as to say obligated.

I would express your concern with the DZO, or the chief instructor. This guy is making students uncomfortable, and putting the reputation, and business of the DZO at risk.

We joke with tandems, this isn't an accounting firm, but there is line that shouldn't be crossed. You shouldn't be making students feel uncomfortable in any way, safety wise, or sexually.

As a TM your behavior shouldn't be the highlight of the show. A skydive is larger than life, and a instructor should be exciting and funny, but should never be bigger than the student and their jump.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[baronn 111]

Dude is a TOOL. Really? Even have to say anything here? Man, go find a Hooker ya loser, get laid and leave yer bad behavior in their bedrooms. DZO shuda sent him home that day (even if he desperately needed him) and put in no uncertain terms, don't do it again. I was in a similar position with a much more experienced instructor and stepped in. I got razzed for doing so but, the student wrote a letter thanking me. It didn't happen again.

[skyfreek 1]

That guy sounds like a real dick.even worse that he thought he was being funny and cool.if I had the displeasure if being around that, I would have been uncomfortable too. Tandem instructors are supposed to provide a fun and safe skydive to people that pay a lot of money for a half hour of fun. That kind of behavior us bad for business.

[alabamaskydiver 0]

This whole scenario sounds very much like some of the comments and videos that have been posted that routinely happens at ASC and AST. I remember one video of Jeff Fincher, TI at AST, during the climb to altitude, picking his nose and wiping it on his tandem passenger, and there was other stuff like that posted as well. All be it, that's not sexual, it's still very much inappropriate.

[riggerrob 558]

That reminds me of an after-jump report by a tandem student. She was a pretty, young, Saudi-Arabian woman who complained about her TI fondling her breasts. She said: "If he did that at home, my father would have him killed!"

[gowlerk 1,912]

More likely the father would have her killed for being harnessed up to a man like that.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gregpso 1]

DcloudZ

I was witness to a rather uncomfortable situation this past weekend at the dropzone.

A tandem instructor (always a great guy and rather professional) was acting somewhat out of character Sunday afternoon and I found it quite disturbing.

There was a group of great looking girls all doing a tandem jump. I witnessed most of the behavior from the gearing up and on the plane ride up.

During the gearing up, all of the ladies were offered popsicles by one of the regulars. (Which I found was quite nice
During the plane ride up, I observed this tandem instructor acting innapropriately with the student. At one point, while sitting on the bench, he wrapped his legs around the girl. She had a totally uncomfortable look on her face. The instructor continued to do so, as well as laugh about it and point it out to other TIs until she said that it was not comfortable.

Perhaps I'm over-reacting but I think that it is totally innapropriate to treat a passenger like that and ultimately results in a less than pleasant experience for the passenger. It shows a complete lack of professionalism and undermines the credability of the dropzone.

I was unsure how to react to the situation in the moment so I did not say anything at all. All of his colleagues were acting properly with the rest of this group of girls.

What is your opinion on this situation and what would you have done?

The bum should lose his TM rating !! Terrible behaviour!! I have done many Tandems as a passenger. On all loads there were other tandem groups with young female students with other TIs.. I am very pleased to say at Nagambie and Bridgewater Australia every TM I ever saw was always very respectful of all their customers (even to a dickhead like me)

Thanks NAGGAS (Don) and BRIGEWATER (Ralph)!!

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[rehmwa 2]

out of line - you need to tell the DZO and let them handle this piece of shit - he's putting the whole operation in jeopardy, he's treating the customers like crap, he's ruining the day for a person that should expect a great experience

which DZ?

anyone - we need to respond to these situations as if this passenger was our own family. Not be a jerk and physically attack him, but go after him professionally and make sure he doesn't do it again to another customer.

this is the wrong job for this guy

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

riggerrob

That reminds me of an after-jump report by a tandem student. She was a pretty, young, Saudi-Arabian woman who complained about her TI fondling her breasts. She said: "If he did that at home, my father would have him killed!"

this is even worse, and there should be criminal proceedings against the TM

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DcloudZ 0]

The problem is that I consider this TM a good friend of mine and he's normally a great guy; that's why I said it was just out of character for him. I don't know if I would be able to tell the DZO about the incident... Especially now that it's been about a month.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[DougH 270]

If he is good friends with you then you should be comfortable giving him a face to face. If can't handle it then he isn't a good friend.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DcloudZ 0]

I dropped the ball on that one then. Feedback should be specific and immediate; I think it's too far out of his mind that talking to him about it now would do more harm than good.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[DougH 270]

DcloudZ

I dropped the ball on that one then. Feedback should be specific and immediate; I think it's too far out of his mind that talking to him about it now would do more harm than good.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you need to grow a set.

Couldn't say something then, needed to seek out the internet collective judgement on something that you already knew was wrong, and still can't mention something to your friend.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DcloudZ 0]

Yup I'll freely admit that I don't call people out on stuff enough. I let too much slide, I feel that as someone who started skydiving just a year ago I'm in no place to go around telling other people people what to do or shoving my opinion down their throat.

Perhaps in some situations, it is a good thing. But definitely not in this one.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

DougH

If he is good friends with you then you should be comfortable giving him a face to face. If can't handle it then he isn't a good friend.

+1. That behavior is totally out of line.

Chuck

[TriGirl 268]

It's obviously still bothering you. You may consider having a conversation that might start with, "I should have said something earlier, but something I saw you do was really out of line." Clear the air. Don't expect an explanation or reply, but at least get this crap off your chest! If he's really a friend, you can have that conversation.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[Andy9o8 0]

Are you hoping that by starting this thread, jumpers in your region will see it and word will filter to (or about) him, or even that he might see it? Is that realistic?

[piisfish 135]

You should send Gregspo to that guy

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I don't call people out on stuff enough. I let too much slide, I feel that as someone who started skydiving just a year ago I'm in no place to go around telling other people people what to do or shoving my opinion down their throat.

What you described is not a skydiving issue. You're not commenting on his gear check procedures or training methods. What your describing is basic social interaction, and you've been doing that everyday of your life since you were a kid in the sandbox and learned to share your bucket and shovel.

Keep perspective on things at the DZ. Skydiving is one thing, but it's separate from everything else. A great skydiver, instructor, or whatever at the DZ might be a total dirtbag, asshole or loser out in the real world. One thing has nothing to do with the other, and in areas outside of jumping, you might a much better person than this TI who you describe as a 'great instructor'.

Note that I'm not trying to talk shit about this guy, I'm just saying that it's possible for 'anyone' to be a dirtbag as well as a 'great' skydiver.

My advice- Keep a keen eye out for similar behavior from the guy. If gets remotely close to that again. pull him aside and reference the earlier episode, the new one you just witnessed, and say 'Hey, I'm not trying to tell you how to skydive, but I've seen you make some of the ladies a little uncomfortable, and it just bugs me'.

The truth of the matter is that tandem passengers take a very submissive role with regards to the instructor. They are placing their physical bodies under the instructors control, and that's a responsibility that needs to be dealt with carefully.

[davelepka 4]

I'll add a quick story - I had a first jump AFF student over the weekend, who happened to be a female. The student radios we use have helmet mounted speakers and a control unit at the end of a wire which we put down the front of the student's jumpsuit for the jump.

We keep the radios off to conserve battery life, so part of the final pre-jump gear check is to turn on the radio. With a dude student, I'll turn it on, drop it down the front of their jumpsuit, and tell them to zip it up. With a female student, I hand them the radio and ask them to put it down the front of their jumpsuit, and then to zip it up.

Now I don't have any bad intentions, and I'm as professional as can be, but I'm also aware that this person is willing to do anything I tell them to (including jump out of a plane), and I know if I said that I needed to put that down their jumpsuit, they would never question it even if it did make them uncomfortable. The easy solution is to not take the chance, and just let them handle anything going down the front of their jumpsuit.

The other side of the coin is that I'm trying to keep my student focused on their jump, and doing a good job. I can only imagine that being made to feel uncomfortable by inappropriate behavior is going to break their concentration, and get in the way of my real goal which is a safe and successful skydive.

Besides, if I really want to put hands in a woman's shirt, I want to earn it the old fashioned way with $40 worth of beer or wine, and several hours of smooth talking.

[DougH 270]

davelepka

With a female student, I hand them the radio and ask them to put it down the front of their jumpsuit, and then to zip it up.

Dave makes some excellent points, and I really wish that some of the things he said are part of every course directors material, and part of an annual refresher.

We have total strangers handing their safety over to us, and most of their control. We harness them while they stand at attention. The have to give up their personal bubble to kneel in front of us, or sit on our laps for hook up. Once we leave the plane we are the only person with them, they are totally isolated with a person that they have known for sometimes only 15 minutes before.

That deserves special respect and care!

It is all about making the extra effort to interact with students in a manner that makes them more comfortable.

I make an extra effort with women, and I try to pick my words more carefully.

Instead of asking them to spread their legs when doing up their leg straps I ask them to move their feet apart.

I tell guys that when I am tightening up the laterals that the belly band may get tight on their gut or belly, but I will loosen it up in a minute. For little Miss. Pear I tell her that the belly band is going to feel tight on her stomach, but I will loosen it in a minute.

Small changes in language, but I think those little word switches can make things more comfortable for my passengers.

Great reminder, thanks Dave!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rehmwa 2]

DcloudZ

The problem is that I consider this TM a good friend of mine and he's normally a great guy; that's why I said it was just out of character for him. I don't know if I would be able to tell the DZO about the incident... Especially now that it's been about a month.

that might all be true. But his ACTIONS are what matters here and those actions need to be addressed.

Those actions are not even about skydiving, they stand alone.


I'd say (applies to the saudi woman that got groped too), you need to take his actions and pretend he was doing the exact same stuff in a Bar, at the grocery store, etc etc etc, add in the element that the customer is pretty much TRAPPED, both physically, and by the situation, and see how you feel about it now.

Why should you respond any differently just because it's at the DZ?

fortunately, the responses are either professional, or criminal, and we don't have resort to 'tough guy' antics, or vigilante childishness.


Believe me, in the long run, you talking to him, or the DZO TALKING to him, or even having his rating removed, will be much better for him than a customer putting him in jail or taking away everything he owns in a lawsuit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DcloudZ 0]

I appreciate all of your answers.

Andy, there is not much chance that word trickles to him as I live in a french region and not many (or any) of the people at the dropzone use dz.com.

Dave, Doug, and rehmwa:

I've been thrown a bit of a curveball. There was an issue at the DZ last week between myself and this TI (unrelated to the original post) that was mediated by the DZO.

I feel that if I now bring the original issue to the DZO's attention; I will have less credibility and it will seem I am doing so out of spite.

However, it was brought to my attention that I am not the only one who has witnessed this kind of behavior from the TI. I am thinking I should ask the other person(s) whether or not they are willing to corroborate the story if I bring the issue to the DZO. What are your opinions?

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[peek 20]

davelepka

Besides, if I really want to put hands in a woman's shirt, I want to earn it the old fashioned way with $40 worth of beer or wine, and several hours of smooth talking.

And here I thought all you ever posted was stern advice to skydivers. (I have always thought it was good advice by the way.)

Good job Dave! You have totally cracked me up.