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stratostar

How do you teach for a Biplane- two out

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Ok so I was reading on a skydiving centers FB page and a number of instructional peeps were talking about what to do if you end up with two canopies out and they are in a stable flying biplane and how they would train FJC's and students in continual education in regards of how to handle this.

One of the leading instructors said, he believes teaching FJC's to cutaway. The reason being is it's too complicated for any wuffo student's to understand and act correctly in those events, there for KISS: Keep it simple stupid, have them cutaway from that because keeping it to one canopy only is the most simple thing to do.

Personally I think that kind crack is whack. IDK maybe this is the newest & latest, greatest hot shit training advice in the industry and I need to stop my old dyno ways, get up to speed on these modern ways.

Oh yea, I did a number of searches and can't find it, but if anyone knows the video, I believe it was Mike McGowan who shot it?, riding in a mess when the chopped main pulled the reserve closed and he landed in trees..... Bueller, Bueller, Buueeeellllller.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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stratostar

Ok so I was reading on a skydiving centers FB page and a number of instructional peeps were talking about what to do if you end up with two canopies out and they are in a stable flying biplane and how they would train FJC's and students in continual education in regards of how to handle this.

One of the leading instructors said, he believes teaching FJC's to cutaway. The reason being is it's too complicated for any wuffo student's to understand and act correctly in those events, there for KISS: Keep it simple stupid, have them cutaway from that because keeping it to one canopy only is the most simple thing to do.

Personally I think that kind crack is whack. IDL maybe this is the newest & latest, greatest hot shit training advice in the industry and I need to stop my old dyno ways, get up to speed on these modern ways.

Oh yea, I did a number of searches and can't find it, but if anyone knows the video, I believe it was Mike McGowan who shot it?, riding in a mess when the chopped main pulled the reserve closed and he landed in trees..... Bueller, Bueller, Buueeeellllller.



KISS won't always work with the cutaway strategy. There are a variety of ways the main and reserve can interact during a 2-out main cutaway, many that would prove fatal.

Back in the days when jumpers avoided square reserves over fears that things would go to sh*t in the event of a 2-out scenario, the Knights conducted a bunch of test jumps in which they intentionally fired square reserves with and into mains. In nearly every case the canopies worked themselves into bi-planes that were easily steered and safely landed.

My money is on landing a bi-plane unless the canopies aren't getting along.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Land the 2 out steering only with the rear risers of the front canopy if a bi-plane or the outside rears of each canopy in a side by side. Cutaway as a last ditch effort in the event of a down plane. Leave the brakes stowed on both canopies. Stress that 2 outs are usually the result of pulling low, with the resultant AAD fire, and that pulling at the proper altitude greatly reduces the chance of a 2 out.

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Yea no shit, ya think....;)http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Quote

OTHER UNUSUAL SITUATIONS:

2. Both parachutes deployed:
a. Biplane
(1) Do not cut away.
(2) Steer the front canopy gently using toggles or
leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling
on the rear risers.
(3) Leave the brakes stowed on the back canopy.
(4) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.
united states parachute association® publications category A section 4 2014-14 sims page 31


you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I wasn't at PIA 2013 but a friend brought home a few documents including the attached one about two outs by Jim Cowan, a top CRW guy. It looks like a section of a larger document. He gave a talk on "Collisions, Entanglements, and Dual Deployments".

The document's value seems to be that it goes into more detail about actually flying two-outs that one usually sees. He also adds the case which is neither biplane or side by side but is "in between", and also adds partial deployment of the 2nd parachute. The document doesn't cover landings.

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Addressing the thread in general, the USPA SIM is a great reference, but for two-outs I'm not sure that it has the best possible information. At the least, what to teach for two-outs is up for debate.

For example, for a biplane, the first thing the SIM says to do is to unstow the brakes of the front canopy. Jim Cowan says don't release brakes, and the CSPA says don't release brakes. (The latter acknowledges Jim Cowan's work as one of its sources).

For side by side, the SIM says either (a) disconnect RSL & cut away, or (b) fly using the brakes of the dominant (more overhead & larger) canopy). The CSPA and Jim Cowan say to use the inner rear risers to turn. 'Always Push, don't Pull'.

EDIT:
I now see what the SIM might be based on, given that they are heavier on releasing brakes and flying with toggles. In a previous thread on this topic I noted that the Dual Square Report presented at the PIA in 1997 mentioned flying the front canopy in a biplane, or the dominant canopy in a side by side, with gentle toggle input.

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GLIDEANGLE

*** the outside rears of each canopy in a side by side.



This seems to be a recipe for creating a downplane! Why do this?

I have done numerous CRW side-by-sides (me in a large 9 cell and my friend in a large 7 cell) and steered that way (with toggles), pulling the canopy being steered away from the other canopy by as much as 2 feet, and watching the other canopy follow it. No instability or tendency to downplane. (Might be different with 2 small canopies.)

When I tell people about this method I always emphasize keeping a good watch on how the canopies are reacting to each other, and steer only a very little close to the ground. No flare on landing.

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I knew a guy that bounced because he chopped a biplane at about 100 feet. The main risers and lines promptly tangled with the reserve and he spun in right in front of everyone. Don't do it. :(

I know one of the Golden Knights who did the 2 out test jumps. They all refused to do the "biplane-chop main" jump. They did try it with a kited test dummy setup. Every time was a gnarly entanglement. Whoever is teaching to chop a main during a biplane is teaching people a new way to commit suicide. I'm serious.

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divingos

On my 14th jump, my AAD fired. We were instructed to wait until the reserve filled with air. Right before the reserve touched the main, we were taught to cut-a-way. It worked just fine. BTW - that was 23 years ago.

Square main and reserve? What if they were already touching? Have you changed your EP's for this since then?

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stratostar

Yea no shit, ya think....;)http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

Quote

OTHER UNUSUAL SITUATIONS:

2. Both parachutes deployed:
a. Biplane
(1) Do not cut away.
(2) Steer the front canopy gently using toggles or
leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling
on the rear risers.
(3) Leave the brakes stowed on the back canopy.
(4) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.
united states parachute association® publications category A section 4 2014-14 sims page 31



This, and:
Do not flare.
I'm not so sure about the leave the brakes on though..We simply tell them to steer with the dominant canopy, but under no circumstances are they to steer with outside toggles in a side by side (as in left turn = main, right turn = reserve).
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Baksteen


This, and:
Do not flare.

Why no flare on landing? The front canopy is controlling the back canopy. At our DZ we teach to flare normally on landing.

My wife and I used to land biplane stacks, a similar situation, and we would flare normally on landing.

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My wife and I used to land biplane stacks, a similar situation, and we would flare normally on landing.




Most FJCs I've seen teach not to flare. The usual thinking is that the descent rate of one person under two canopies is low enough that a flare is not needed and that depending on the configuration could have unpredictable results, especially if a student flares high which is quite common. No flare and PLF is the norm.

You and your wife are still two people with only one canopy each. It's not the same.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Our students have 500+ sq. ft of canopy over their heads in a two out situation. Descent should be slow enough that a PLF should be all they need to land softly/safely.

I don't know, but it seems to me that a lot might go wrong in the two-out situation. The student might flare the rear canopy of the biplane, or, gods forbid, just the outside toggles of both canopies in a side by side, thus creating a problem ot flare-altitude.

So KISS, basically.:)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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SStewart

I keep it simple, I teach if they are touching each other land them both.
If there is sky between them and they are flying away from each other, release the main.

Option 2, only chop a downplane.



Same logic why you don't cut away from a pilot chute in tow.
Two out is always better than no out.
Onward and Upward!

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GLIDEANGLE

*** the outside rears of each canopy in a side by side.



This seems to be a recipe for creating a downplane! Why do this?

If you only pull the risers from one of the canopies the other will want to fly straight and the other one turns, which in turn feels like the setup wants to go into downplane, and probably will if you pull long and hard enough.

I had a two out last year and I tried to steer only by pulling from the risers of one of the canopies and every time I did that it felt like I was going to end up in a downplane, which is why I gave up on trying to steer the setup as I got lower (and because my GoPro snagged on the reserve toggle twice). I only realized afterwards that I should've steered both canopies simultaneously to be able have any proper control over the setup.
Your rights end where my feelings begin.

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