are we giving up safety?

[feuergnom 22]

sorry people, i don't get it. on one hand we do everything to keep skydiving as safe as possible. we make aad's mandatory, we promote moderate downsizing for students, we cheer whenever a new device comes up that makes skydiving safer. we have a shitload of recommendations, can you spell BSR & FAR?

yet when it comes to tandem main canopies everybody goes crazy about the latest hot as shit blanket that sells as tandem canopy but is only slightly larger than the biggest student main...

call me old fashioned, but I think we are going in a wrong direction here

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[piisfish 135]

come on, ther is no big promo or hype on the FX280

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Mixoligist 0]

Don't fly one if it is not safe for you.
On the other hand....do not tell me what to fly.

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[peek 20]

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..yet when it comes to tandem main canopies everybody goes crazy about the latest hot as shit blanket that sells as tandem canopy but is only slightly larger than the biggest student main...

Are we giving up safety? Yes in many cases. The guy in back is bored because he isn't busy teaching his student anything, so he needs a "cool" canopy to play with.

[Having said that, there are of course cases where a small(er) tandem canopy would be preferable, as where the winds are always on the high side.]

[AggieDave 6]

Ok, what size do YOU want all the TI's to jump? 350, 370, 384, 395, 420? What size do you believe to be the "safest?"

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DougH 270]

Is there an increasing trend in student injurys that shows some correlation to the increase in these hot shit tandem canopies?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[peek 20]

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Is there an increasing trend in student injurys that shows some correlation to the increase in these hot shit tandem canopies?

In the case of USPA and GM dropzones, so few injuries of any kind are being reported that it is impossible to even see any trends in this area. Who wants to admit to injuring a tandem student?

[AggieDave 6]

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In the case of USPA and GM dropzones, so few injuries of any kind are being reported that it is impossible to even see any trends in this area. Who wants to admit to injuring a tandem student?

Yet another example of failure with the GM program!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[feuergnom 22]

to answer this question we'd (the general "we") have to be honest and answer the question why we think it is unsafe for most of the jumpers to fly small canopies and why this line of thought should not apply to tandem pilots
now before anybody gets picky: when you start out as a TI you know nothing about the flying characteristics of your tandem main (whatever size it is). add the varying weight of your pax' and you have a "different" main on every jump

instructors and experienced jumpers in here tend to point out billvon's list of canopy maneuvers when it comes to downsizing. do we, as tandem instructors hold up to the same level of responsible behaviour when we have to make a choice regarding canopy size? would we want to perform the same maneuvers with a pax strapped in front, just to know what our canopies are capable of? i doubt it.

i know there a highly experienced tandem pilots out there, doing hundreds of jumps a year. maybe they are able to fly the small tandem mains in every condition and who are wise enough, to stay on the ground once in while. but in the hands of all the lesser experienced guys, anything smaller than a 360 is_IMHO_plain dangerous.

bottom line: common sense should dictate our choices when students (and I think of every "pax" as a student) are involved.

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Don't fly one if it is not safe for you.
On the other hand....do not tell me what to fly.

and to anwer this: it is not the question if it is safe for me but safe for the tandem-pair

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[AggieDave 6]

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anything smaller than a 360 is_IMHO_plain dangerous.

I fly an A2 350 reasonably often. Its a great canopy, even in no wind. I'm also a big guy (read: tall and fat) who is literally at the weight limit on nearly every tandem.

So am I an unmitigated danger to the tandem students?

If I am, tell me why I am. If I'm not, tell me why I am an exception to your plainly stated rule.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TheCaptain 2]

I really do not see these smaller tandem mains being dangerous. We put students on large docile canopies so that their toggle inputs (which will be wrong on occassion, such as reaching for the ground instead of flying the canopy) are also docile as to not get them hurt. As tandem instructors we are (or atleast should be) able to control our inputs to the canopy so we fly the canopy to the ground. A slightly higher wingloaded canopy has better pressurization and quicker response to input, these are both desirable traits (in my humble opinion) as long as the instructor is capable of controling it.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[riggerrob 558]

" ... instructors and experienced jumpers in here tend to point out billvon's list of canopy maneuvers when it comes to downsizing. do we, as tandem instructors hold up to the same level of responsible behaviour when we have to make a choice regarding canopy size? would we want to perform the same maneuvers with a pax strapped in front, just to know what our canopies are capable of? i doubt it."

.......................................................................

I am only strong enough to do rear riser turns and rear riser flares with tiny Japanese girls strapped to my chest.

Does that mean that I need to do another million push-ups, chin-ups, parallel bar dips, etc. before down-sizing?
Tee!
Hee!

[livendive 8]

I've heard of exactly one tandem incident involving a low turn. Unless there's a rash of injuries going on somewhere that I'm not aware of, it seems you're looking for a cure to a problem that doesn't exist. Personally, I've had more hard landings on 500's than on 330's.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[yarak 0]

I jump 330's al the time. Of course I weigh 145 lbs. I find it the best performing size for the average load. think about it......with a little girl on front I might only load that at .9. Are you telling me that I need to be on a 360 because my 330 is too small? I strongly disagree. Also when I jumped 400's I experienced alot of tension knots when lightly loaded. Since Ive been on smaller canopies not a single tension knot. long story short 5 cutaways on 400's.......0 cutaways on 330's about the same amount of jumps on both sizes. Maybe its just random but it sure is a scewed number. Last time I checked malfunctions are more dangerous than no malfunctions. So I believe for me the smaller 330 canopy might be safer than the 400.
Regardless, I think you need to worry about what is best for you and not try to force your opinion on the rest of the community. Technology improves and skil levels improve. Thats how progession in the sport takes place. I personally like freedom. Freedom to fly whatever canopy I think is best for me and my student. Regulation is not the answer. Education is the answer. If you like regulations so much move to a communist country. So sick of people trying hold skydiving back or regulate it under the facade of safety. I can take responsibility for my own actions I dont need you or the USPA to do it for me. If you wont skydiving to be butterflies,daisies, marshmallows, and perfectly safe.......then find a new sport. Try putting on football pads and spend your time in the wind tunnel, cause thats the only safe way to be anywhere close to skydiving.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[rmarshall234 13]

Would it reduce the malfunction rate from tension knots? I've always thought the rate was unacceptable and is the "first link" in a chain. I think the only reason we haven't seen more cutaway injuries/fatalities is the professionalism of the TI's.

[faulknerwn 36]

Death maybe but I bet there are a lot more injuries you might not hear about. Case in point. 4-5 years ago, I went to a Monday morning meeting at my old company. Another guy who I barely knew was the first one to show up besides me. He had his arm in a cast and his chest was wrapped. I asked what happened. Turned out he had gone tandem that weekend at another local dz, and he described in whuffo ways being hooked into the pea pit. He had video and I asked to see it but I never did.

He described pretty much a low turn and hitting the ground extremely fast. He had a broken arm and broken ribs.

I know I always wince when I see people hooking tandems in.. Passengers don't need that risk..

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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I know I always wince when I see people hooking tandems in.. Passengers don't need that risk..

Amen and I agree. Passengers don't need that risk and I don't care who you are it is an added risk. There are too many TMs that make this proceduire the norm and just because a TM can do it doesn't mean they should do it. Common sense suggests that a hook turn gone wrong versus a standard landing gone wrong will have a more adverse consequence. Hopefully it won't be death but just a broken bone or two.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[livendive 8]

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Death maybe but I bet there are a lot more injuries you might not hear about.

Someone else made the same point to me in PM. I saw a guy a couple months ago turning tandems at an altitude I considered dangerously low, but for the most part it's just not something I see up around this part of the country. I frequently use a stall/surge on landing, and sometimes a moderate toggle turn (more like a sashay), but I don't see any reason to hook it and neither do any of the other TI's I know.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,400]

>On the other hand....do not tell me what to fly.

You can fly whatever you like. You do not have the right to risk your passenger's safety because of your desire to go fast, though.

If you want to swoop and get paid for it, by all means, do AFF or tandem video and jump an FX69. No problem at all.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I really do not see these smaller tandem mains being dangerous. We put students on large docile canopies so that their toggle inputs (which will be wrong on occassion, such as reaching for the ground instead of flying the canopy) are also docile as to not get them hurt.

And so that when they do something boneheaded on landing their injuries are reduced.

Tandem students sometimes plant their feet on landing and a few get carried off on stretchers with tibia/fibula fractures. Increasing the tandem pair's kinetic energy on landing isn't going to reduce these incidents.

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As tandem instructors we are (or atleast should be) able to control our inputs to the canopy so we fly the canopy to the ground.

Ocassionally this doesn't go well and you end up with a double fatality.

Modern tandem skydiving isn't about the instructor having fun or teaching students. It's about providing a "skydiving" carnival ride to as many paying customers as you can.

Anything which limits the risk expopsure is probably good for business.

[TheCaptain 2]

I would have to disagree with you. The better response for the smaller canopies means an instructor has the abillity to fix issues if they are heads up, such as a low surge. I agree that modern tandems are more about the carnival ride but giving an instructor the maximum amount of tools to work with helps them at those critical times.
At least that is my experience and opinion

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[matthewcline 0]

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giving an instructor the maximum amount of tools

Tools, I think, is the operative word here. Canopies are Tools used to get the pair back to the ground safely so they can go back up and jump again.

We need to educate not only our selves but the next generation of Instructors on the various tools and their uses.

A Hop 330 may be a great parachute for a high wind none turbulant day with a light student, but it may not be a good canopy for a low wind, thermal turbulant day with a heavy Student. The educated Instructor will pick the rig off the rack with the more fitting canopy.

We do not need to regulate the use of tools just educate how those tools work in various situations.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[WatchYourStep 0]

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Modern tandem skydiving isn't about the instructor having fun or teaching students. It's about providing a "skydiving" carnival ride to as many paying customers as you can.

Man I'm glad my dropzone isn't like that

If you are a TI and that's how you look at tandems...please re-evaluate why you are doing what you are doing.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[D_22359 0]

I personaly tend to agree with the education side here. I think we should be helping new Instructors to undrestand how to choose the right wing for the day/student. If you want to do flips on exit it's your choice, I dont have to agree with you but I dont have the right to stop you either. If you want to hook your student in... well your the one that has to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror. Personaly I take the safty of the my passenger to heart.

At our DZ were lucky to have several choices in canopy sizes 1-400, 3-365's and 2-330's. Every jump I look at the passenger the wind & temp then pick the main thats going to get me back with the best chance of NOT going to the ER. It dosn't take too many jumps on a rig to understand how it's going to behave. Their is a place for 330's just the same as a 400 being the right choice.

As Instructors it's up to us to pick the right gear or sit the hell down. More rules and reg's is not going to stop stupid! Banning a canopy can put people at risk, under loading in the wind and backing a student into a landing can be worse than sliding another hole into your jump suit. So in short you jump what ever gives you that warm fuzzy fealing and let me choose what I want to jump... then again I could be wrong.

Bill

[TheCaptain 2]

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Modern tandem skydiving isn't about the instructor having fun or teaching students. It's about providing a "skydiving" carnival ride to as many paying customers as you can.

Man I'm glad my dropzone isn't like that

If you are a TI and that's how you look at tandems...please re-evaluate why you are doing what you are doing.

You can not change your customer’s perspective of what a tandem skydive it to them. It seems (IMHO) the vast majority of people do look at this as a carnival ride(something to be done, marked of their check list and on to the next). While you can teach the ones that want to learn most just want to be taken for the ride.

Kirk
He's dead Jim