NEW tandem masters

[bclark 0]

Having your students help you land is all about practice up high. Open, check the canopy, fly to your holding area. Give them the toggles. Teach them hands up is full glide. Guide them through a flare stressing that their hands come down with yours. Explain these are brakes (and nothing to be afraid of). After full glide and brakes show them slow turns in either direction stressing hands up as the neutral position then pulling toggle on the side they want to turn. Now they know fast, slow, and turns. Now guide them through several complete practice landings starting with hands all the way up, then feet out, then flare. Correct any performance deficiencies up high until you are confident with their ability to help you. In very rare circumstances I cannot get a student to satisfactorily perform during practice and I will take the toggles away. Also very rarely you will get one that can't hold their feet up.
(putting a proper harness on them goes a long way toward eliminating this problem).

THEN if you get to landing and they still lock their arms or try and flare to soon OVERPOWER THEM. You have much better leverage and control of those toggles than they do on the front. I am a little guy and if I can do it you can too.

[skydiverton2 0]

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Having your students help you land is all about practice up high. Open, check the canopy, fly to your holding area. Give them the toggles. Teach them hands up is full glide. Guide them through a flare stressing that their hands come down with yours. Explain these are brakes (and nothing to be afraid of). After full glide and brakes show them slow turns in either direction stressing hands up as the neutral position then pulling toggle on the side they want to turn. Now they know fast, slow, and turns. Now guide them through several complete practice landings starting with hands all the way up, then feet out, then flare. Correct any performance deficiencies up high until you are confident with their ability to help you. In very rare circumstances I cannot get a student to satisfactorily perform during practice and I will take the toggles away. Also very rarely you will get one that can't hold their feet up.
(putting a proper harness on them goes a long way toward eliminating this problem).

THEN if you get to landing and they still lock their arms or try and flare to soon OVERPOWER THEM. You have much better leverage and control of those toggles than they do on the front. I am a little guy and if I can do it you can too.

I know how to teach this, but I'm not willing to take the extra risk of injuring a passenger/student for no reason

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
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Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Never ever allow a first time student to assist in landing, ...

So don't you think there is a way to train your student to land safely while learning canopy control under your supervision?

Other students manage to learn these things, and they are all alone landing their parachute.

I have to agree. I only have 850 tandems, not thousands, but I have the student help 99% of the time. I started doing tandems about 15 years ago, when the toggle pressure was much higher than today, and the help was appreciated.

I train and practice thoroughly up high, I make a stable approaches, and I put my hand above the toggle loops, not through them, so that I can "work around" the student if neccessary. I also grip the toggles to the risers with my hands until I want to flare, to help prevent an early flare, and I employ a 2-stage flare, both in practice and on the actual landing. This adds another layer of control.

If someone were to be freaked out and unreliable, I would land it unaided. That's no problem.

[feuergnom 22]

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When all else fails

end the skydive and pull (assuming that you've got a drogue over your head already)

and for the n-th discussion wether you allow a student to fly and land the canopy with you - well i guess that totally depends who's rating you've got.
from what i have experienced ist is mostly vector-trained pilots who are are afraid of letting their passengers be more than another peace of live cargo to be delivered. the difference is what you have been taught to be normal

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 20]

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I know how to teach this, but I'm not willing to take the extra risk of injuring a passenger/student for no reason

This is not a comment about you in particular, but it is a shame that good instruction might be considered "no reason" to allow a tandem student to steer and land the canopy.

Everything has a risk. Why would we allow a student skydiver to train and jump solo? This is more risk that a tandem jump.

Again not a question aimed at you, but asked sincerely to everyone: What is it about tandem jumps that make everyone treat them so differently from other student jumps?

[feuergnom 22]

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what is it about tandem jumps that make everyone treat them so differently from other student jumps

converting from manufacturer rated tandem master to uspa rated tandem instructor doesn't change attitudes. if you've considered yourself a meathauler for the last gazillion jumps you wouldn't want to see them suddenly as students, would you?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 20]

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converting from manufacturer rated tandem master to uspa rated tandem instructor doesn't change attitudes.

I hope you don't think I am talking about anything related to USPA! (The soon to come required USPA rating for USPA members doing Tandem jumps won't change much, and it is not about training.)

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if you've considered yourself a meathauler for the last gazillion jumps you wouldn't want to see them suddenly as students, would you?

I don't think it was a sudden thing having tandem students becoming "passengers".

I guess my question is how we got to this point. Do you ever see AFF getting to the point where we say "Oh, we just go out and hang onto them and pull for them most of the time because most of them are only making one jump and they don't want to learn anything." ?

That is what I see has happened to Tandem jumping.

[skydiverton2 0]

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I know how to teach this, but I'm not willing to take the extra risk of injuring a passenger/student for no reason

This is not a comment about you in particular, but it is a shame that good instruction might be considered "no reason" to allow a tandem student to steer and land the canopy.

Everything has a risk. Why would we allow a student skydiver to train and jump solo? This is more risk that a tandem jump.

Again not a question aimed at you, but asked sincerely to everyone: What is it about tandem jumps that make everyone treat them so differently from other student jumps?

Issue is that a tandempair has much more kinetic energy to be stopped than a solo jumper. Assume the speed is the same than a tandem couple has the double amount of energy (due to the double mass) A bad flare will expose the passenger feet to this double energy, with a very high change to break under this load, that is why I think the passenger has to keep it''s feet up at landing is more important than helping with flaring.

Remember here in europe tandems are sold as thrillrides! The majority of the passengers does not even want to steer the canopy when I ask them to. In the rare occasion that a passenger shows up for a second or thirth tandemjump I let them for example open the parachute (so I have to catch a flying droque release)

When you consider tandemjums as a training aid and also sell the jumps this way, you want to involve the student as much as possible, but that is a different situation.

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[livendive 8]

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Again not a question aimed at you, but asked sincerely to everyone: What is it about tandem jumps that make everyone treat them so differently from other student jumps?

The students? When I started doing tandems, my students helped with almost all our landings. Now it's very rare that I let them help with the landing. The inconsistency between one student and the next just isn't worth the risk to me

As for the original question, I'll second what everyone else said...fly it. Your legs are better occupied flying whatever you've got than they are wrestling with the student. I'll give them a couple courtesy nudges to try and fix their legs, and I'll slide the tiny girls forward/up to better control them, but for the most part I just outfly them, regardless of their size or what they're doing wrong.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnMitchell 14]

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2. Landing assist. Hmmmm...seems to me, and it has happened, that allowing a "student" to assist on landing is potentially dangerous.

question 2 is directed at those (from the students point of view) "joyrides"....a Tandem joyride is quite different than say a Tandem Progression jump where the goal really IS to teach the student something and I'm addressing those "joyrides" only in question 2.

How does one tell ahead of time who will be the skydiver and who will be the one jump wonder? As an instructor, you learn to read the person's comfort level. If they are comfortable and competent in handling the toggles, and this you find out by practicing up high, who am I to say "hey, you're just a poseur, let go of my steerie thingies"?

And again, I don't have a thousand tandems, but letting the passengers help with the landing flare has not caused a big problem for me yet.

[yarak 0]

back to the original question.

here is one tip to help you with a student in freefall.
remember that you can talk into there ear. I have given in air instruction to many students and it worked. Yell arch in there ear. If you trained them on the ground., then they will usually respond by arching. but not always HAHA.

anyway, just a tip that might help you some time

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[milehighpres 0]

thank you for comming back to the begining. yea...i kinda remember that. that i can hear myself yell in there head burble.

"the sky is not the limit....the ground is"

[VictorSuvorov 0]

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student was about the same size as myself he kicked(like riding a bike) the whole ride. i flew as stable as possible by getting big and flying myself. everything else went perfect, landing was awesome(i was suprised myself)

just one of my questions is..

what are some tips of tricks that seasoned tandem masters use/do to help them along the jump.
like tips they dont cover in the class that help you on your jump

just relax and hang on the drogue. typically, it does not last over a minute. flying big and fighting a student will just make you tired

[piahenzi 0]

A bit off topic but specific reply to NickDG....If it wasn't for the tandem progression, this skydiver would not be in the sport and wld have missed out on the time of her life. I for one, am grateful to Tandem progression which made it possible for me to overcome so many obstacles.

[tonyhays 86]

I always let the student help me steer the canopy, but only let them help me land if they have made prior tandems and the practice up high is satisfactory.

Here is one reason not to let them help you land....

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2364865;search_string=jack;#2364865

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[slotperfect 7]

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A bit off topic but specific reply to NickDG....If it wasn't for the tandem progression, this skydiver would not be in the sport and wld have missed out on the time of her life. I for one, am grateful to Tandem progression which made it possible for me to overcome so many obstacles

Thanks for that . . . it was a refreshing change to the conversation.

Arrive Safely

John

[peek 20]

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Here is one reason not to let them help you land....
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2364865;search_string=jack;#2364865

Well, gosh, yeah, but you can't be stalling a canopy near the ground just to try to teach your student.

(I can't really comment on that incident though because I don't know anything about it.)

I just try to show my Tandem students the common pattern and flare things. Most of the time they are simply following along with my hands, like a CFI would do the first few times they were showing you how to land an airplane.

[tonyhays 86]

I don't think Jack was stalling the canopy near the ground to show a student what could happen. At that place it is (or was) mandatory to have your student help you land. From everybody I talked to about the incident, it sounded like the student did a panic flare too high above the ground and Jack didn't catch it in time.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[skydiverton2 0]

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I don't think Jack was stalling the canopy near the ground to show a student what could happen. At that place it is (or was) mandatory to have your student help you land. From everybody I talked to about the incident, it sounded like the student did a panic flare too high above the ground and Jack didn't catch it in time.

The savest way to avoid this situation is to keep the student/passenger away from the controls at final. So no passenger assisted flares for me, ever!

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[steveorino 7]

I haven't respond so far because it seems so many are so concrete in their belief that it appears some judge your character and ability to be an Instructor if you differ with their opinion.

I have had several close calls from students who stopped the flare at chin level and I had to over power them to save my life and theirs. The worst was a guy who dropped one toggle at 100 feet to wave at his friends/family. All these people were properly trained of the landing procedure and managed good practices up high.

Now I make a judgment call on each jump. If I feel they will compromise our safety I ask them to remove their hands from the toggle and concentrate on lifting their legs up. I try to give them every opportunity to learn about th canopy ( I talk about the pattern, and explain what I'm doing as we go) but I refuse to compromise my safety (and theirs) if I feel they will not flare properly. Yes, it is a judgment call, but I'm okay with that.

steveOrino

[SimonBones 1]

Hey dude, welcome to hauling beef. If there is one thing you have to know about doing tandems, it's that summer time is coming...

All the college kids are coming home for the summer and they want to do tandems. What does that mean for you? TWELVE tandems in a day that's what. No more busting out fun jumps until the fall.

This also means that you are going to get TIRED and QUICK! Hauling beef is hard work especially when they're FAT! You'll need to stay ahead of the game and keep your energy levels up. I recommend investing in the following product:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk

Good luck!

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[Rover 9]

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Hey dude, welcome to hauling beef. If there is one thing you have to know about doing tandems, it's that summer time is coming...

Watch out my friend. You'll get yourself in trouble with comments like that!!

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[skydiverton2 0]

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Hey dude, welcome to hauling beef. If there is one thing you have to know about doing tandems, it's that summer time is coming...

All the college kids are coming home for the summer and they want to do tandems. What does that mean for you? TWELVE tandems in a day that's what. No more busting out fun jumps until the fall.

This also means that you are going to get TIRED and QUICK! Hauling beef is hard work especially when they're FAT! You'll need to stay ahead of the game and keep your energy levels up. I recommend investing in the following product:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk

Good luck!

Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

[peek 20]

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I don't think Jack was stalling the canopy near the ground to show a student what could happen. At that place it is (or was) mandatory to have your student help you land. From everybody I talked to about the incident, it sounded like the student did a panic flare too high above the ground and Jack didn't catch it in time.

Well, that just shows you that I probably should not have brought that up, because I don't know enough about what happened. Apologies to Jack if you thought I was saying you did anything wrong.

Oh, well, the discussion continues, (and it has been a good thread!)

[peek 20]

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Yes, it is a judgment call, but I'm okay with that.

Judgment is the whole issue here, and it sounds like you are doing a good job using it.

"Know your student." This is an expression that has been around ever since instruction has been around.

The more we train our students and the more we see how they respond to our training, the more we will know about how they will respond, and what they are capable of.