Beginner that has a question.

[jarrodh 0]

Most of my skydives have been out of a 182 with a Tandem Instructor and Student on the plane as well. Ever since my first AFF skydive I have been taught about emergencies on a plane and how I should be prepared to jump out at anytime if the pilot gives the command or stay in the plane if we are to low.

Ever since my first AFF solo I have also wondered if we are at 2000 feet and the plane loses power or breaks down and the pilot instructs everyone to get out instead of land then what does the TM and student do? Since they are presumably not hooked up at such a low altitude and everyone needs to leave ASAP! then do the TM and student just hook up super quick and leave or since its so low they just ride it out and hope for the best?

This has come to mind a few times while at the DZ but I always forget to ask. I was just wondering. Thanks

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[FlyinseivLP2 0]

2000 ft is a low bailout altitude for a tandem. If they are not already hooked up that take up more altitiude and then you have to get the student out the door . In many cases they may riding the plane down. Where are you sitting in the plane? Most times a solo or 2 way would be out before a tandem, so you should in a position where you don't have to get past the tandem to get to the door.
The best thing to do is to talk with the TMs and ask about this sitution and what is going to happen, also talk with your AFF I about this. There is not going to be a definite answer though. It all depends on the situation. The fact is even if the tandem is hooked up and ready to go, there are altitudes that may be safe for you to go, but are too low for the tandem to get out. So if you are in the back you are probably riding the plane down

[jarrodh 0]

Im never in the back of the plane im always within arms reach of or right next to the door in front of the tandem. If the pilot says get out then im out. No matter where the tandem is...thanks for the info though.

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[shermanator 3]

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No matter where the tandem is...thanks for the info though.

so does that mean that you would make the situation worse for the unhooked tandem passenger.. shove him out of the way, knocking him out the door, just so you can get out yourself...

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[BIGUN 1,053]

Chances are really good that a pilot's not going to say get out until >2K. S/he's kinda busy less than that if the shit's hitting the fan.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 232]

They're probably going down with the plane, regardless of whether or not they want to. If it's a catastrophic failure, such as a wing tearing off then they're toast. You and the pilot might get out. If the TM exits without the student then I (along with the TM's friends and family) will say that he made a realistic decision. I've ridden all the way in the back of a 206 to shoot tandem video. With 2 TM's in front of me then I would give the old college try of kicking out the back window rather than think that I'd ever get out of the front door. There's also no point, one way or the other of removing your seatbelt at 1k if you're in the back of a 206 behind tandems. You're not getting out.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[tdog 0]

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If the TM exits without the student then I (along with the TM's friends and family) will say that he made a realistic decision.

Now that is an interesting one...

A ship captain goes down with his ship or he makes sure everyone is safe.

Thoughts?

I agree there is no point in two deaths if one can be avoided, but god - that is a hard one.

[AggieDave 6]

Personally I'm going to do everything I can to getting the student out with me. Even if its 1 hook and firing the reserve out the open door to get "extraction" from a spinning airplane. Will it work? Well, 1 hook will, but for the extraction? Hell if I know, I hope I'm never in a position to find out.

For the AC emergancy I was in that was too low to even consider jumping out I had a student, but it was a coach student (who is a CFI and commercial pilot). He knew exactly what was going on and reacted correctly by not moving, sitting there and hoping that the pilot did well for us being at 200ft without an engine. The other emergancies I've been in at various DZs over the past few years found us around 5-7k and plenty of time to get out of the plane with no problems.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

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Even if its 1 hook and firing the reserve out the open door to get "extraction" from a spinning airplane. Will it work? Well, 1 hook will, but for the extraction?

Maybe, maybe not..... most likely NOT,
Spinning you will be pinned, and trying to crawl your self to the door will be a chore, let alone draging your studnt with you. The attachment is from a spin in 18 in 81, a lot of good people were lost.
I'm sure thay all tried to get out and couldn't as well as ran out of time.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

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Maybe, maybe not..... most likely NOT,

It doesn't mean that I'm not going to keep fighting until the aluminum crumples on the ground, though. That's the overall point of my previous post is that as a TI I'm going to do everything in my power to get me AND my student safely out in the air if I have to. Or I'm going to hope that the pilot flies right and that we make it ok. Which ever has to happen for myself AND my student to make it through with the best chances we have.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

Dave I understand where your coming from totally, I just was pointing out a known fact with "spinning" AC.
I wouldn't blame for trying and not bailing on your student, with the attachment I posted, I'm sure those who wern't thrown out (4-1 made it) were fighting to get to the door till the aluminum crumpled on the ground.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AFFI 0]

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Spinning you will be pinned, and trying to crawl your self to the door will be a chore, let alone draging your studnt with you.

Like the ride at 6 Flags where the barrel spins and the floor drops away. Jeez, I loved that ride when I was a kid!

Guess that is why I find the notion of spending my last remaining moments alive stuck to the wall of a spinning out of control airplane amusing - sounds like a fun way to fall off the old perch...
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jarrodh 0]

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so does that mean that you would make the situation worse for the unhooked tandem passenger.. shove him out of the way, knocking him out the door, just so you can get out yourself...

No I did not mean that I would shove a tandem student out the door to his death if the shit was hitting the fan just so I could get out. What I meant was that if the door was open and I was instructed to leave then i would surely find a way out of that door by crawling over,under, or around that person without endangering them to greatly . If it was clear I wasnt gonna be able to get out since there are Tandems in the way and the pilot had already exited and wasnt even trying to land it then I would start kicking out windows and panels of the plane so I could find another way out.

I dont plan on being behind any Tandems on a Cessna...ever, and I think most DZ's make Tandems exit last anyway for many reasons one of which is so they dont trap other jumpers in a plane during an emergency.

The main point of my creating this thread was not to address the situation of what I would do if I was stuck behind some Tandems on a plane that was going down. It was to hear from TM's out there about how theyd handle being with an unhooked student on a plane that wasnt safe to land. Thanks for the responses so far though, they have answered my question.


Blues

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[tdog 0]

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Spinning you will be pinned, and trying to crawl your self to the door will be a chore, let alone draging your studnt with you.

Like the ride at 6 Flags where the barrel spins and the floor drops away. Jeez, I loved that ride when I was a kid!

And when I was a Kid I got in trouble for crawling around in that ride - ending up someplace different than before it started - the time I turned upside down I almost got kicked out of the park - proof that moving while being "pinned" is possible. I don't think you could hook up a student, but you could probably make it to the door as a solo, especially if you were already close.

[stratostar 5]

Yea I used to do the same thing on the same ride, but I'll pretty much bet you that ride is no where near the same as an airplane spinning out of control in over all G force's generated, and if you really think it will be as easy as the ride to move around, you need to go take a ride in an aerobatic plane and pull some real high G's and see for yourself just what your really going to be facing should you find yourself in a out of control plane one day. If it was as easy as you think to get out, more jumpers on 85 Hotel and the loadstall in WA would have gotten out.
85 H. was only at 3k or so, and the loadstall was on jumprun at 12 or so, how much time do you think it took till impact? it wasn't much working time.
You might want to read up on it and have a better understanding of reality.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tdog 0]

True...

But - the point was - I am not to give up trying.

[stratostar 5]

No where did I say to sit back and enjoy the ride to your demise. I'm only point out to people it's not a walk in the park, and I see too many jumpers who think they will get out, many don't understand what all their in for, it is a huge misconception many have.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AFFI 0]

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No where did I say to sit back and enjoy the ride to your demise.

Then I'll say it.

If the plane is going down and the pilot has commanded everyone to remain calm and stay still then by all means - sit back and enjoy the ride to whatever end awaits. Trying to get out of the door may make the pilot's task at making the save impossible.

Stratostar is totally correct about the seemingly incomprehensible forces that some situations could create on an airplane ride gone wild.
The forces involved could be ultra incredible as could the rate of descent.

You must be 18 to ride “The Human Centrifuge”.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NickDG 23]

The question of an Instructor's responsibility to a student in bad situations has changed substantially over the years. But it was always a large part of the discussion during what used to be the training classes for apprentice Instructors. In these Jumpmaster Certification Courses (JCCs) during the '70s and early '80s it was pretty straightforward.

While no one would come right out and say it – as a JM/I you took the five dollars – and doing so implied you would do every thing in your power to save those in your charge if it all hit the fan. Of course this is when static line was the primary first jump method and without tandem or AFF were all more or less on the same page.

In the worst case scenarios like mid-airs or wings dropping off it's kind of a moot point but at least every one in the aircraft was wearing a rig and so still has a shot. A good static line Instructor would always include the following into every FJC, "Okay, you're sitting in the back of the plane minding your own business and there's a large boom and all of sudden you are falling through the air – what do you do?"

In lesser situations emergency bailouts with students onboard are rare. Now having said that - it does happen, it happened to me three times, and all at low altitudes. In those situations, and I'll say this plainly, it's your job to be chucking students through the door until the lights go out.

When AFF began it became more complicated. The ride up was about the same, but now you, as JM/I, had to deal with in-air emergencies on the way down. We lost more than just a few Instructors who chased students until it was too late to save themselves. We got away from that by improving the ground training to take those situations into account. That's where the AFF first jump mantra of, "You find yourself alone in freefall, what do you do," came from.

But what really saved us was the introduction of Cypres AAD. Prior to that the Sentinels and FXCs brands of AADs that student's wore didn't hold much confidence for Instructors. In hindsight they weren't as bad as all that, but we all sort of acted like they weren't there. The Cypres changed all that and it was the day JM/I responsibilities began to morph into what goes on today. It now acceptable to count on today's AADs to save your student when he blows through his pull altitude and you are out of position to assist. Another really really big thing that changed is experienced jumpers started wearing AADs too. This meant no JM/I was going to be chasing any student into the ground.

Many of us resisted using a Cypres, at first, as we thought it would prevent us from fulfilling the requirements of the job. But it became the way of it. The era of, "They signed the waiver," had arrived.

Tandem was another problem altogether. Especially for the ride up. I was the chief Instructor at Lake Elsinore when Tandem first started and when the rig arrived I remember we all sat around looking at it and running through all the things that could go wrong. If I recall correctly there wasn't any real tandem certification course like today it was basically just a video tape, a booklet, and a written okay to jump it from the manufacturer. It's funny now but I remember one of the Jumpmasters remarking, "Man, that thing has a lot of handles on it." When another wondered what we going to do with it, I know I said something like, "Let's burn it . . ."

Once we did figure it out the next question became modifying our protocol for in-flight emergencies. This of course is before every DZ had a turbine aircraft so it was a slightly larger concern. Our first thought was hanging a round chest mounted reserve on the cabin wall of the D-18. We only needed one as we only had one tandem rig. The idea was instead of taking the time to hook-up and go at low altitude; you'd attach the chest mount to the upper rings of the passenger harness and dispatch them by pulling the handle in the door as they go.

Thank goodness we never had to do that, LOL.

The SOP has changed of course and now to bail out with a tandem student, and to answer the Ops original question, you hook up the top hooks, or in dire circumstances just one hook is good enough, pull both main ripcords, get out, and throw the drogue. In an out of control situation you'd do the same thing and then just try to get the drogue out the door and let it extract you. Yes, not real great, but it's a shot . . .

Thank goodness, I've never had to do that either . . .

Finally, we learned it's better to be a hero on the ground instead of in the air. What I mean is we learned to teach better, to prepare our students better, and to have procedures in place for almost anything that could happen.

In any case there's one thing that will never change. Once they stamp Instructor on your ticket, and no matter what we tell ourselves, your students are entrusting their lives to you. And when (not if) that Cessna throws half its prop, or a piston rod shoots through a engine crankcase and starts a fire, or your pilot passes out, you better be able to come up with the goods . . .

NickD BASE 194

PS, Strato Star, the Black family (wasn't it?) and friends who died in that Beech in Hawaii wasn't so much from the stall spin at the end but the fact they were pretty low when it first started going bad. They were on there way to Diamond Head for a hop & pop type demo into the crater. If I recall right two jumpers did manage to get out and I think one of them made it.

[AFFI 0]

Great post, thanks for taking the time...

[stratostar 5]

I agree with you and we are on the same page. My only point to posting in this thread is a "spinning AC"
not the what the job is of I's and JM's.
As for 85H yes the Black family you are correct and low altitude was a factor, the stall, we later learned, the plane fell on it's back and broke the control cables and thus made a recovery impossible. You are correct some made it out, only one made it, if I recall the quote of the survior, 3 others passed him under canopy in FF as he only got thrown out, not jumped out and had canopy about 500ft, all these jumpers were in back by the door, a small door 18 at that. The demo was to be in Honolulu stadium and due to the hot lights heating the moisture that comes off the mountians, it produces a cloud and this is why the exit altitude is a low H&P so they can been seen. They had done that demo many times, Danny Black had just been checked out in the 18 and didn't have a lot of time in it and I only know this because my dad was his CFI, I think the GC was was to the AFT. there were many links in the chain.
all of this was a long time ago and I'm going from memory on this, but I still have the parachutist mag with the report about it and was working for Byron at the time of the accident, these were all very close friends to me and the whole event sucked.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NickDG 23]

That's interesting about the control cables failing, and it makes more sense too. I remember reading something about the A/C just coming out of an annual inspection and the controls were somehow mis-rigged. But, that never made sense to me as how did they make it from Dillingham to where they went down without that being apparent.

I had been jumping for sometime before this accident and left the Islands some years prior, but it was the first "cabin class" incident I can recall. And it seemed like it began a trend when later the Loadstar went in up in Washington, and Spike's Beech went in at Lodi.

BTW, I said something about turbine aircraft being more reliable up-board, and if you look at it in terms of numbers of operations, it is certainly true, but I didn’t want to leave an impression on new Instructors that the worst never happens. The Perris and Sullivan Twin Otter mishaps are testament to that. (Although there wasn't much anyone could do in those two situations).

However, didn't a tandem student in the Sullivan crash credit her tandem master with saving her life by cradling her body with his own and taking the brunt of the impact? That's the kind of devotion in an Instructor that brings tears to my eyes. And every time I hear someone deriding Instructors it just shows how clueless they really are . . .

NickD BASE 194

[stratostar 5]

I asked diverdriver for help to get the NTSB & FAA reports on this, as I had many questions still all these years later, he told not a chance, the data base don't go that far back. I never heard anything about the mis-rigging, but that mean anything, I was young at the time and of course quite upset as was everyone in the jump Hawaii family.

As for I's saving students we are on the same page no doubt about it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[crazydiver 0]

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No matter where the tandem is...thanks for the info though.

so does that mean that you would make the situation worse for the unhooked tandem passenger.. shove him out of the way, knocking him out the door, just so you can get out yourself...

Dude...relax.

Cheers,
Travis

[dragon2 0]

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I dont plan on being behind any Tandems on a Cessna...ever, and I think most DZ's make Tandems exit last anyway for many reasons one of which is so they dont trap other jumpers in a plane during an emergency.

Right, then do not jump at our DZ

Usually tandems get out at 9k so all 12k jumpers are sitting behind them until then. If the tandems go to the same altitude as the rest, any AFF/wingsuiters are still behind them.

ciel bleu,
Saskia